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Does multiculturalism ruin Santa?

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    #92
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,922 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Given your profuse usage of vulgar language, I would say it is you, not I, that has come to harm.

    disagree of course, your continual use of religious quotes shows you have in fact been indoctrinated by the scriptures, most likely from Catholicism, thankfully we are moving on from this school of indoctrination, but sadly are moving towards other schools of control and manipulation. there certainly is no harm in having faith, but there is a point were schools of faith become harmful, particularly to the individual, you are in fact showing signs of this harm.


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    #93
    thegreengoblin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭thegreengoblin


    What a thread. A simple one word answer to the OP's question (hint: it's No) yet before you can say 'bloody foreigners' you get people stomping in, pitchforks at the ready, telling everyone loudly and proudly that they're not changing their traditions and if anyone doesn't like it they can go back to where they came from.

    Except of course, literally no one is actually forcing them to change their ways.


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    #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    To the faithful, Atheism is a belief in the fictitious.

    Who mentioned atheism though? I certainly didn't. But the "To the faithful" part was my point exactly. The purveyor of one fairy tale talking about the risks and down sides of someone else's.
    realitykeeper wrote: »
    ... but no magic?

    Depends what you mean. They do not believe in literal magic like Santa making reindeer fly or Elsa waving her hand and things turn to Ice. But "magic" does not have to be confined to that.

    For my children for example when I cut a window in a chicken egg and reseal it with transparent sealant and then every day 5 times a day we come back and use tools to magnify and literally watch a baby chicken grow from fertilisation to a walking chick - that is "magic" and awe inspiring and exciting. With all the eye wide wonder that people describe above when their kids find presents waiting under a tree from a magical intruder.

    I also train and learn at illusion "magic" and coin magic and close up magic and various aspects of mentalism and hypnotism. I can make things appear and disappear. I can do cold reading. I have walked on water pretty much looking like the Christian Cult Personality. I can drive a car blind folded. I can walk into a shop and 4 times out of 5 say to someone "Watch this I am going to give the cashier 10 euro and make him give me change of a 50" and they do.

    And this is wide eyed "magic" to my kids too. And they love it. And then they love finding out how I did it and how it works.

    So my kids lives are full of magic thanks. Just not the kind based on lies.
    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Flying reindeer are nothing. To the faithful, anything is possible in the next life.

    Yea when you start beleiving one thing without evidence - then beleiving any other nonsense without evidence is certainly possible. I wholly agree.
    realitykeeper wrote: »
    ... and yet it does effect children's trust in their parents. It may be in a very small way, it may be in a subconscious way but it is there. For some people, skepticism is the legacy of Santa and the other guardians (tooth fairy, easter bunny, even jack frost).

    Many people have tried to offer me arguments over the years for why I should do the Santa thing with my children. Usually using words like "Magic" and "innocence" and phrases like "Let children be children". But nonsense every time.

    The only argument that _has_ given me pause was from a user of this forum who suggested Santa Make Believe and subsequent outing of the conspiracy and lies could potentially be an inoculation against other bad ideas - like the evidence devoid theist nonsense you pedal.

    Mainly because many of the arguments used to convince kids there is a Santa - are the same ones used to convince people there is a god. And many of the narratives used _on_ people who think there is a Santa - are the ones used on people who think there is a god. Such as mediating their morality based on the benefits or consequences of pleasing or offending this god or Santa demigod. So when they become enlightened to being duped with an agenda for one - and then notice the same agenda and same arguments used for the other - there is great potential that they will transfer that thought process.

    That did stop me in my tracks for awhile and make me think. But so many people are still catholic who thought there was a Santa too - so while the inoculation effect might be real I think it is minor. So ultimately it did not convince me to go with the Santa thing. I will protect my kids from religious infection in other ways.


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    #95
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Saint Nicholas
    Saint Nicholas, patron saint of (amongst other things) merchants, brewers and pawnbrokers.
    Sounds about right.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #96
    Badly Drunk Boy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,475 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    A child`s innocence is not for the amusement of adults. By trying to preserve their innocence, you may end up destroying it. As for the power of magic and possibility, that is something kids can keep into adulthood and for their whole lives in the simple story of the nativity.
    Some people believe in the magic of Christmas. Let them have it.

    Others believe in the magic of Gaelic the Irish language, and the affect it will have on immigrants. Let them believe in that too.

    Nollaig shona dhaoibh!


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    #97
    DS86DS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭DS86DS


    Odhinn wrote: »
    It turned mine into a jihadi. He's now enforcing sharia law in the spare bedroom.

    He'll chew the socket wire on your fridge freezer once he finds you have beer and bacon stored there.

    Firestarter Muslim hamsters doing their bit for the Religion of Peace.


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    #98
    DS86DS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭DS86DS


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Other aspects expand and enrich the Santa story, like Zwarte Piet :

    Sinterklaas_zwarte_piet.jpg

    Lol


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    #99
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,126 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    John Sacrimoni wrote: »
    I dont know about Santa, but there are no nativity plays or nativity crib displays in my daughters school anymore.

    Are they doing some other Christmas themed story like say Die Hard instead ?
    McGaggs wrote: »
    Isn't Santa a foreign tradition that we got through multiculturalism?

    Yep Coca Cola.
    Omackeral wrote: »
    I was raised a Jehoavah's Witness. We were explicitly forbidden from having Santa on Christmas so we knew the reality of it. I didn't ever say anything to anyone else becuase I wasn't a prick. I probably am now, though.

    PS Knock knock... Who's there?... Me, motherfcuker.

    I wonder if you have actually met a fair few people here.
    By any chance you weren't colleagues with some nice looking young wans we invited in for tea and biscuits ?
    Try_harder wrote: »
    does the Joseph look 40 and Mary 14, for accuracy

    Ahh the devotion travellers have for Mary is now making a lot of sense.


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    #100
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,734 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    What does Santa have to do with catholicism?

    Ahh ... St Nicholas and his distribution of gifts was a thing long before Coke invented the red suit on a fat guy.


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    #101
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Caleb Howling Gravy wrote: »

    You'll find many Irish, who don't believe in any religion, do the whole Santa thing too.

    I'm an atheist and I love Christmas!
    Sirius Boner wrote: »
    Unfortunately, yes....
    as a member of the parents committee I see that some children are telling the truth about santa...and their parents are onboard with this behaviour.....
    btw it's not Muslims either before anyone starts shouting from the rooftops

    Don't tell us who it isn't, tell us who it is!


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    #102
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    You do know that Santa isn't a religious thing right? You will not see a Santa inside a church. The Santa we all know & love isn't St Nicholas.

    Now you know that Santa isn't a religious thing at all you might realise that children of all colours & religions believe in Santa. Just look at them queuing up to visit Santa especially the shopping centres in areas where we have multiple cultures. Maybe you wouldn't notice outside of Dublin.

    While we are on the subject of Christmas I might as well point out that the tree & decorations aren't religious at all either. Decorating trees and shrubs stems back before Christianity. As a result of this 10s of thousands of Irish homes will be decorated even though the owners aren't Christian.

    I've always been a big fan of not letting religion get in touch the way of a good Christmas /Yule time
    Wow. You're so clever. You're probably more intelligent than Steven Fry *sarcasm* I know Santa isn't a religious thing. I never said it was.


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    #103
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,209 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    Wow. You're so clever. You're probably more intelligent than Steven Fry *sarcasm* I know Santa isn't a religious thing. I never said it was.




    So what is this about then?


    We were all white, Irish and apart from one Protestant kid in the class, Catholic. So we all had the same belief about Santa. Nowadays there is a lot of diversity, which means there will be kids in the class for whom Santa isn't a thing.


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    #104
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    So what is this about then?
    Shows that we all had similar backgrounds, no diversity, unlike today. Nowhere did I say that Santa = religion.


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    #105
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,209 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    Shows that we all had similar backgrounds, no diversity, unlike today. Nowhere did I say that Santa = religion.


    you said your belief in santa came from your religion. Well either that or you just worded it really really badly.


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    #106
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    I think the one thing we can all agree on, is that Gremlins is the best Christmas film.


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    #107
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,926 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Paddy Cow wrote:
    Wow. You're so clever. You're probably more intelligent than Steven Fry *sarcasm* I know Santa isn't a religious thing. I never said it was.

    I'm not having a pop at you. I know that the thread is tongue & cheek but you are moving the goal posts here. You link it to religion in the opening post. I was responding directly to you linking it to religion.

    Getting away from the above, something else for you to think about: most children from different cultures living in Ireland were born here. They are actually Irish people with possibly brown skin but Irish just the same. They learn about santa from birth the same as you & me. It's in the movies & TV. They shop in the same shops as you & I. They see santa. Most kids starting school are on a level playing field as far as santa is concerned. They don't just get off a boat and discover santa for the for time.


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    #108
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you said your belief in santa came from your religion. Well either that or you just worded it really really badly.
    No I didn't. I said we were white, Irish and Catholic. Our similar backgrounds meant we had similar beliefs about Santa. It's not hard to understand.


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    #109
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,354 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    I think all this winterval happy holidays rubbish should be fcuked in the bin. Ppl afraid of their own shadows these days.

    Nollaig Shona duit!!


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    #110
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    No I didn't. I said we were white, Irish and Catholic. Our similar backgrounds meant we had similar beliefs about Santa. It's not hard to understand.

    oh, you believe in Santa because you're white? Makes sense.


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    #111
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,153 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    super_furry wrote: »
    I think the one thing we can all agree on, is that Gremlins is the best Christmas film.

    For children (above a certain age).

    For adults it has to be die hard.


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    #112
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I'm not having a pop at you. I know that the thread is tongue & cheek but you are moving the goal posts here. You link it to religion in the opening post. I was responding directly to you linking it to religion.
    No I didn't. You jumped to that conclusion. I said we had similar backgrounds which meant we had similar beliefs about Santa.

    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Getting away from the above, something else for you to think about: most children from different cultures living in Ireland were born here. They are actually Irish people with possibly brown skin but Irish just the same. They learn about santa from birth the same as you & me. It's in the movies & TV. They shop in the same shops as you & I. They see santa. Most kids starting school are on a level playing field as far as santa is concerned. They don't just get off a boat and discover santa for the for time.
    Not all children have the Santa experience. We have one poster who doesn't do it with his kids but makes sure his kids doesn't ruin it for others. We have another who was raised Jehovah's Witness who never had Santa but again, didn't ruin it for the other kids. Then we have a teacher who said that yes, some kids who don't have Santa do tell the others. That's what I was asking about in the op. With greater diversity now, it stands to reason that there are going to be more kids in school that don't believe in Santa and I was wondering if those kids tell the other kids.


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    #113
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,926 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Paddy Cow wrote:
    No I didn't. I said we were white, Irish and Catholic. Our similar backgrounds meant we had similar beliefs about Santa. It's not hard to understand.


    What has being a Catholic got to do with santa? Or white for that matter. You do know that they have santa in Africa? Have you never seen a black santa? They look strange to me but they do exist. I've seen Mexican Santa's. Steady on with the white thing

    I don't mean any disrespect but you should get out & see the world & different cultures. I don't think you really understand the whole culture thing at all.


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    #114
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    RayCun wrote: »
    oh, you believe in Santa because you're white? Makes sense.
    Nope. Lack of diversity meant we had similar beliefs.


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    #115
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    What has being a Catholic got to do with santa? Or white for that matter. You do know that they have santa in Africa? Have you never seen a black santa? They look strange to me but they do exist. I've seen Mexican Santa's. Steady on with the white thing

    I don't mean any disrespect but you should get out & see the world & different cultures. I don't think you really understand the whole culture thing at all.
    Now you're just being obtuse. I said white, Irish and Catholic to show there was no diversity. Trying to make out there is racist undertones is ridiculous.


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    #116
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    Now you're just being obtuse. I said white, Irish and Catholic to show there was no diversity. Trying to make out there is racist undertones is ridiculous.

    Don't worry. Sooner or later, almost everyone gets to be a racist.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mabf3R9n7-4


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    #117
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,926 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Paddy Cow wrote:
    Now you're just being obtuse. I said white, Irish and Catholic to show there was no diversity. Trying to make out there is racist undertones is ridiculous.

    Not racist just a complete lack of understanding of different cultures. You also don't seem to realise that santa is now almost worldwide in almost every culture. We already have Black Santa's , Asian Santa's etc. I don't see the culture difference you are talking about ruining Santa. We've always had a tiny minority of people who refuse to allow their children to believe in santa here in Ireland. Many of these are Irish, white & Catholic. There was never a time in Ireland where every child was allowed to believe in santa.


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    #118
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    When I was a kid, Christmas didn't last for six weeks. So it was quite possible that other kids had different opinions about Santa, that didn't come up because it was possible to talk about different things.


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    #119
    Dublin Mum
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭Dublin Mum


    Each of my children has had the occasional child in their class tell them that there's no Santa, it's your parents. They never believe them so no harm done. I suppose it's natural if a child feels left out of a tradition and spends months listening to the majority of children in their class talking about writing letters and what toys they're asking Santa for that they'll only take so much of this before they'll tell them the truth.
    My children go to a catholic school by the way, and the children who've told them there's no santa are from non-irish backgrounds, though no doubt as they get older there will be plenty of Irish children too happy to tell them the truth about Santa too!


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    #120
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,153 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Not racist just a complete lack of understanding of different cultures. You also don't seem to realise that santa is now almost worldwide in almost every culture. We already have Black Santa's , Asian Santa's etc. I don't see the culture difference you are talking about ruining Santa. We've always had a tiny minority of people who refuse to allow their children to believe in santa here in Ireland. Many of these are Irish, white & Catholic. There was never a time in Ireland where every child was allowed to believe in santa.

    The only family I knew when I was a kid that didn't believe in Santa were Irish evangelical born again christians. They thought it was a pagan/false god type belief that detracted from a belief in God.

    So they told their kids that if they were good that god would leave presents for them on xmas eve.


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    #121
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    My partner's personal trainer is a Christian of some kind* and he doesn't do Santa, the Tooth Fairy or even celebrate birthdays with his kids. I just think he's tight, to be honest.

    *Not a Jehovah's Witness, which I hear don't believe in anything fun or lifesaving.


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