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Star Trek: Discovery - Season 4 - (*** Spoilers***)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭Evade




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,862 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    That Kim can be given occasional command responsibilities on Voyager but Tilly can't be made acting first officer on Discovery because that would be ridiculous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    No they don't. Nog yes, Kim yes and I'll also throw in Crusher and all of them including Tilly were crap characters with the one exception of final season one leg Nog. Pretty sure most fans of those shows don't like them too with the exception of Tilly where fans are desperate to big her up. She was captain in the MU ffs which was just pure fan service and nuts even by the rules of the MU.

    Overall Trek needs to stop doing wonder kids.

    Tendi is a joke character from a comedy cartoon. LD and PRO are exempt from the rules



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭Evade


    Yeah, being in command of the night shift twice a week is the same thing as acting first officer. And to really apples to apples this, Kim had 5 years commissioned experience on a ship where his rank was essentially frozen by the time he was put in command where if anything major happened the senior officers were one "red alert, senior staff to the bridge" away.

    The two episodes where Nog gets any sort of authority beyond cadet/ensign, Valiant and the Magnificent Ferengi, he's shown to be inexperienced and out of his depth.

    I don't recall Tendi being given any command responsibility but people do point out Mariner overstepping the bounds of an ensign all the time.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    With Mariner though, you sense she really should be in a captain's chair or higher - but that it's her own self sabotage and hang ups preventing and otherwise stellar career. The show has been quite open about this, and woven it into its characters arcs and so on. As opposed to Discovery where it wants Burnham to be the insubordinate and inspiring one at the same time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭Evade


    Captain might be a bit far for Mariner but first officer for someone that could keep her in line once she grows out of the teen rebellion phase which she should anytime now since she's closing in on or has already made it to 30 I could see. Weird fact, if Mariner hasn't been promoted and subsequently demoted during her career she might have been an ensign longer than Harry Kim was if he got promoted reasonably quickly after Voyager made it home. She's been an ensign for at least six years already.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,231 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I would agree that Tilly makes zero sense. I'm not sure why they are even going down that route. But this is Discovery, lot of it doesnt seem to make sense.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    What exactly is this anomaly?

    We're not certain


    someone wrote this lol

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,774 ✭✭✭Rawr


    The trouble with Tilly is that they forgot the part where you build up your character over time with an arc that makes you feel like she belongs on the conn of a bridge. Kim got that over time, Nog had to go through the horrors of war to get there and Tendi is essentially Nurse Ogawa and isn’t really destined for the conn (at least not yet).

    Discovery also had the problem that the writers had forgotten to write in a good chunk of the Chain of Command. To date I’m not sure we’ve even met the confirmed Chief Engineer, Chief Medical Officer (not Cupler apparently) or Chief of Operations. The usual Second Officer role wasn’t really defined and we were left with a ship that had a captain, an XO…and a Micheal with a very ambiguous bridge role. The rest were very poorly defined, and so when they put Tilly in the chair, she had probably hopped over several senior officers, but we would not know due to them barely being in there in the writing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    We have a game on our house.

    Like betting on the length of speeches at a wedding, we bet on how long it take for Burnham to have tears in her eyes.

    Ive heard it called Cry Trek.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    the writers probably only know about the hierarchical structures of a Californian high school , you arent going to get the superb dialogue and interactions of Next Gen which was based on more plausible structures



    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Also the reaction of all those more senior bridge staff was to clap and cheer the appointment of the recent cadet rather than go straight to Sarus office and tell him to do one.

    Having the main cast as non senior crew just doesn't work. It's not believable that the Lower Decks are forever saving the ship/universe and constantly advising and debating with the captain. It also leads to daft scenes like Sarus dinner parties where he fails to invite the senior staff who he should be working closely with every day



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭Evade


    Star Trek has always had a bit of a problem confusing senior officers and main cast. DS9's Take me Out to the Holosuite has Sisko ask for the senior staff to assemble and it includes Ezri and Nog for some reason. But STD takes it to a whole other level. Voyager at tried to justify it somewhat using Neelix logic when he and Kes barged into the magic meeting room in episode 2 or 3.

    Post edited by Evade on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭Evade




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    That's the nub of it. There were hints in season 1 that there'd be some kind of arc about Tilly joining the officer program ... but the show consistently, almost obnoxiously refuses to ever put the character work into its own cast (nevermind Tilly on that point, see the entity of the bridge), and instead pulls these Big Emotional Moments like Tilly becoming XO out of nowhere - then has the gall to applaud itself for the decision. I like Tilly Discovery, stop trying to make me hate her.



  • Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    I think the serialized style of Discovery's season contributes to the lack of character development for the rest of the bridge crew. In a serialized story any episode not furthering the overall story is essentially 'wasted time'. Whereas in an episodic season the writers could take time out to highlight a secondary character with some spotlight time in a one-off story.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I think Discovery isn't as bad as people make out for time given to character development. It's the development itself like Detmer having PTSD but just needing to get her Mojo back like some 80's Tom Cruise movie. Or Tilly becoming first officer rather than a more cerebral growth. Everything has to be big gestures rather than subtle growth.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Serialised stories can advance single character arcs though, you just gotta make sure the primary drivers of a given episode are those characters you wish to develop. Serialisation just means there's always an ongoing story, but beyond they the key cast can grow or discover thjngs within the story. A good serialised show IMO is better than a good episodic one for character growth.

    Discovery has the room to give it's bridge crew time - in fact we even saw that when Airium got an episode dedicated to her (albeit killing her of by episodes end). While Detmer was given a brief PTSD arc in season 3 before the show just lost interest or forgot or whatever; think it lasted 2, 3 episodes? Meanwhile the rest of the crew I can barely recall their names, that's how bad they're featured. But then they add cast members like Tig Nataro, further diluting the chances.

    I still maintain this is a contractual problem. That Martin-Green signed an initial (multi season?) contract that ensured she'd be then main character with all that entails re. character focus, screen time and so on. So the writers literally can't spend more words on Detmer than they'd like because Burnham's character needs to feature in X% of all episodes. It would explain a lot; cos I don't put all this shows failings down to simple ineptitude. TV contracts can be quite exacting, down to lines spoken or even costumes worn (for extras IIRC).



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Its not possible that Martin-Green had a multi season contract as it was supposed to be an anthology show originally. They have given more than enough time to minor characters but can't write properly so the progression is poor for all characters.

    Even Burnham the character the show is based on had terrible progression. She seemed to be a first officer then "Starfleets first mutineer" which is laughable to advisor to first officer sorta to first officer to captain



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,774 ✭✭✭Rawr


    It could very well be that by the end of the Season 1 production run they realized that funding from Netflix would be limited going forward and that they'd have to heavily re-use the assets & cast they made for this Klingon War / Burnman bit, and thus you end up with the anthology turning into a series.

    With renewal up, Martin Green may have insisted that the Michael-centric contract from Season 1 be repeated. These particular contracts can go up to 3 years, and with pressure to keep making content for the then new CBS All Access, the studio went ahead and doubled down on what some of us might regard as a fatal mistake for the show's prospects. I will echo others in believing that there is some contractual obligation in place to make Burnham front & center in most episodes, even when that focus probably should have gone to another character that week. This is a noticeable limitation in Discovery, which frustratingly had glimpses of being a great Trek show if it wasn't for this creative mill-stone around it's neck.

    For comparison, in the 20 half-hour episodes we have gotten of Lower Decks, I can readily identify most to the Soritos crew, their role and at least a little of their personality. Frankly, that was pretty clear after 5-6 episodes of the show, which primarily focuses on 4 Lower Decks officers. After 30 hour-long episodes with the biggest budget Trek has even seen....Discovery has no good excuse to not being able to develop the non-Michael elements of the cast.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I think all those Martin-Green demanded x amount of screen time or whatever rumours were mostly just started by YouTube sites that hate Burnham.

    Discovery has had plenty involving Stamets life and relationship and now Adiras too. Owo and Detmer get there moments although never full episodes. Saru has gotten loads of time to himself and so has Tilly. Season 1 showed us the war from the Klingon side and we even had a whole side quest with Clem Fandango and the lady Klingon in S2. Sadly they also gave us plenty of time with space Hitler.

    It's not allotted time that's the problem it's bad writers



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,774 ✭✭✭Rawr


    It's merely a suspicion, and may only be based on perception of the show. However there is a notable slant to give Michael primary focus in nearly any given episode. I suspect contract, but bad writing could be to blame just as easily. Quite possible that they got into the bad habit of throwing a Deux-ex-Michael at all of thier plots to finish them up.

    It's just that if it is just bad writing, it's a little more damning of Secret Hideout to be given Trek, a huge budget, and to just piss it all away due lazy writing alone. At least with the contract theory there is a chance that "they did the best they could". Without that, they are just horribly talentless TV folk who have the rights to Trek for years to come.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Once Fuller dropped out due to creative differences and the show switched from the anthology thing to being a show focused on one character so from very early on it was decided that this was a show about a character not a crew. People are expecting the crew to get equal billing on a show that specifically says thats not what its doing.

    I can't believe for a single second that a woman who's biggest role was forgettable Walking Dead person could demand something like that in a contract. It honestly seems impossible.

    They persist with the bad writing because lots of people love it. I mean look at what's popular on TV and it's all crap writing. Coronation St., Grey's Anatomy, Fair City it's all crap. Shows that have good writing and make you think like old Trek did don't do half as well as the turn your brain off stuff. Thanks to JJ Abrams we now have "Trek & Furious" made for the masses and sadly we are stuck with it for a while.

    On a side note while we are talking about crap writing Another Life just got a season 2 and that was possibly the worst show I've ever seen



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    there is too much money being thrown at shows it looks like. if the stuff today had to depend on advertising in a mature old world station, a lot of this stuff wouldnt be made or would be made differently. As it is they are flush with investment cash so must be easily taken in marketing tosh about expanded universes, spin offs yada yada. I cant imagine Discovery is successful in terms of eyeballs X time but it doesnt need to be

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭Evade


    Re: Contracts.I don't think it was something she would have demanded but more like something put in place as a deal sweetener so the studio could save money initially and now can't be changed when it was discovered she can't carry a series. Wil Wheaton was allegedly offered a promotion for Wesley when he asked for a raise.

    Re: Another Life. I apparently watched all of the first season and I couldn't remember any characters or plot details when I put season two on. I stopped watching after a few minutes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Another Life is just batsht crazy. Stuff just happens out of nowhere between characters with no explanation or backstory.

    Still don't see that being offered in a contract for anyone other than a big star ( which everyone thought Wheaton was gonna be ). Also "can't carry a series" is really only an opinion and one held by older Trek fans. This is a popular show and a popular character for all the fans who like the show.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,734 ✭✭✭Evade


    It can be used as away to get an actor to do something for less money because series lead looks better on a CV than one of an ensemble. I should clarify that I don't think SMG is incapable of carrying a series on her own, I do think she can't do it playing Michael Burnham with the material she has to work with. By carrying a series I mean be engaging/interesting/etc without getting stale and she's not doing that as far as I've seen.

    It's very difficult to gague how popular STD really is, viewership isn't reported as far as I know and it does seem to me like a lot of the support it gets online is more often anti-anti than pro. If it was a hit the numbers would be everywhere like Netflix's current hot thing, Squid Game.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    If there's one thing that drives me bananas about the modern day streaming madness is how almost nobody reports viewerships anymore - and those that do skew the numbers wildly (Netflix counting a watch as anything more than 2 minutes??). It has made the actual quantitive popularity of shows impossible to measure, with social media obsession no reasonable metric either (is success measured by YouTube polemics now?)



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,618 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    It was always estimates anyway. Like when RTE say 1m people watched the All Ireland final how the hell do they know how many people were in each pub or on front of each home tv.

    The not releasing streaming figures is shady though as they can just tell us x is the biggest show ever. It's only when something breaks out in general conversation or an avalanche of memes that you can be sure. I'm talking stuff like Chernobyl or Stranger Things



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,862 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    Using soaps as examples of bad writing isn't really strengthening your case. They were all there in Rick Berman's era of Trek, some even in Rodenberry's era and if they didn't impact Trek then why would they impact Trek now? I've not seen a second of Another Life but I get the feeling it got renewed thanks to the pulling power Katee Sackoff has after bringing Bo Katan to the live action screen in The Mandalorian. Had a quick look at the Netflix top 10 series and Another Life is not there. Star Trek Discovery was, every week. You'd be better off comparing good and bad writing to shows closer to home like the stable fellows Picard and Lower Decks, other Sci fi series like Another Life, the stuff Marvel Studios are bringing out, Wandavision, Loki, What If. Arrowverse stuff from the CW, any of those would be more relevant then a British soap, which by the way if you ever saw some of the stuff the Americans have come up with, especially in Spanish, you'd nominate Hollyoaks for an Emmy.

    In Media these days if you are seen to take your Sci-fi too seriously you're perceived to be a bit of a "Sheldon". If anything Big Bang theory did the most hurt to Sci-fi writing these days.



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