DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

gsxr1 · 28-02-2008 7:17pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

an architect does not have any material financial interest in the outcome of teh assessment and therefore can carry out assessments on schemes/ dwellings they have designed, sepcified and supervised themselves.

you, on the other hand, have a direct material financial interest in the outcome if you are an employee of the firm that gains financially from a favourable outcome... therefore if you do want to do BERs on your companies dwellings you need to declare it to teh SEI... its unlikely that they would accept it though.

read this:
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1337&docID=1254
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1157&docID=-1

wow.

I was going to ask my employer to sponsor my BER coarse. Guess there is no point in that after reading that link.

sinnerboy · 28-02-2008 7:22pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

wow.

I was going to ask my employer to sponsor my BER coarse. Guess there is no point in that after reading that link.

No - go for it . If you train up you will be useful to your company . you can still assess / advise them even if you can't issue labels for them

Good way to move "off the tools " for you .

with your construction knowledge and experience you would make a better assessor then some who were on my course ....

don't sell yourself short - GO FOR IT

gsxr1 · 28-02-2008 11:11pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

No - go for it . If you train up you will be useful to your company . you can still assess / advise them even if you can't issue labels for them

Good way to move "off the tools " for you .

with your construction knowledge and experience you would make a better assessor then some who were on my course ....

don't sell yourself short - GO FOR IT

Thank you for your encouragement.

I have spent the last hour or so reading over this website

http://www.chevrontraining.ie/?gclid=CNnBvt21vpECFSUnEAodYwtrOA

The online coarse seems like a step in the right direction. Although an ECDL coarse to familiarize myself with MS Excel would be the first step.

I think the need for BER assessors for Existing housing and rental market shall be massive. Since it does not start till the end of the year it give me plenty of time to prepare.

It would be hard to speculate but after reading, it would seem this would not be a full time occupation. Maybe a side job or Saturday work depending on how you set up your strategic alliances with estate agents .

Mellor · 29-02-2008 10:11am

sinnerboy wrote: »

I Think we are agreeing Mellor ...

to clarify HRV has 2 effects - direct and indirect

1. Direct - HRV recovers heat from heated internal air and

2. indirect - because to used HRV properly , open fire , trickle vents and wall vents are omitted , they ( the open fire , trickle vents and wall vents ) will not be present to cool that internal air

Yeah, on the same page. I was considering the second part as under the heat recovery. Can't have one without the other (actually you can if its not done right I suppose)

A third minor benefit might be that breaks in insulation due to 225 vents are reduced to the size of duct required. Every little helps.

sinnerboy · 29-02-2008 7:29pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

The online coarse seems like a step in the right direction. Although an ECDL coarse to familiarize myself with MS Excel would be the first step.

I think the need for BER assessors for Existing housing and rental market shall be massive. Since it does not start till the end of the year it give me plenty of time to prepare.

It would be hard to speculate but after reading, it would seem this would not be a full time occupation. Maybe a side job or Saturday work depending on how you set up your strategic alliances with estate agents .

the online course is pretty tough . you can't beat the "classroom" environment - you learn almost as much from tea time / lunchtime chats with others as from the formal instruction . I would book a weeks leave if you have to .

I did a week full time course. It was not easy - not putting you off - give it your full attention and focus and you will be fine

Getting to grips with Excell would be useful .

I think you said you were at homebond / citywest ? Remember SEI said
Estimated no. of assessors needed - 2000
No. qualified now - 800
No. registered now - 250

I believe the no. required is a gross under estimation ( think - all buildings to be sold OR LET from Jan next will need a cert )

It could potentially see you in full time (self) employment.

Chimpster · 29-02-2008 9:34pm

I qualified last summer and registered straight away. I sat on it for a while and then put out a few feelers among some people I knew in the industry. There is work there at present as some of the architects/engineers are happy to farm out the work but I'm not too sure about the long term viability of this.

From the few BER's I have done its not easy work and with SEI still sorting out HARP etc its tough going at times. Definitly the existing houses will open up a whole new world of work but unless SEI clamp down heavy on 'vested interests' then it will be a closed cirlce.

My own gut feeling is that SEI workload is starting to run behind the implementation dates. When is the course for existing houses becoming available? What about non residential? and what about Part L and DEAP?

Alot to be tidied up yet.

gsxr1 · 29-02-2008 9:48pm

Chimpster wrote: »

I qualified last summer and registered straight away. I sat on it for a while and then put out a few feelers among some people I knew in the industry. There is work there at present as some of the architects/engineers are happy to farm out the work but I'm not too sure about the long term viability of this.

From the few BER's I have done its not easy work and with SEI still sorting out HARP etc its tough going at times. Definitly the existing houses will open up a whole new world of work but unless SEI clamp down heavy on 'vested interests' then it will be a closed cirlce.

My own gut feeling is that SEI workload is starting to run behind the implementation dates. When is the course for existing houses becoming available? What about non residential? and what about Part L and DEAP?

Alot to be tidied up yet.

I think the courses start around the september mark.

sinnerboy · 04-03-2008 11:26am

Response from SEI to my enquiries - . I have inserted my own comments' in bold

The new version of DEAP to coincide with TGD L 2007 will be available in the third quarter of 2008

The methodology for existing dwellings has not yet been formalised but is expected to be ready by July of this year ( courses to be set up , attended passed and assessors registered - all by Jan 2009 ?? )

The training requirement, examination and registration process for BER non residential assessors has not been finalised. ( implementation is this July folks ) - However we expect that prospective assessors will be required to:

Demonstrate competence in the use of a validated software tool ( - which one ?? )
Demonstrate knowledge of Part L of the Building Regulations for non residential buildings
Demonstrate ability to generate and interpret Building Energy Rating and Advisory Reports for non residential buildings
Hold appropriate professional indemnity insurance
Register with SEI as a BER assessor for non residential buildings ( - don't rush now folks )

BER National Calculation Methodology for Non-Domestic Buildings

The application of BER to buildings other than dwellings is more complex than for the domestic sector due to the large amount of variation in design, scale, function, usage etc. Ireland will adopt a dual approach comprising the development of a national calculation method and validation of other software packages. The following software may be used by BER assessors to demonstrate compliance with building regulations and generate the BER and Advisory Report:

1) SBEM with the user interface iSBEM

2) SBEM with an approved user interface

3) Approved Dynamic Simulation Model Software

For more details on SBEM and validated software packages currently used in the UK, see http://www.ncm.bre.co.uk/

There is currently no methodology for existing industrial buildings, ( my comment ALL buildings sold or rented from Jan 09 will require BER rating ) however information will be posted on www.sei.ie/ber when it becomes available

The phasing in of BER is not going well - what odds on the minister issuing an SI to push out implementation dates ?

-unlaoised- · 05-03-2008 12:16am

Hello,
I did the BER course last May.
on the course we used DEAP software. I do not have a copy of it. I am currently doing the assignments for the course and I went onto SEI website to get a copy of the software we used on the course.
All they have up is an excel workbook. I understand this will do the same thing but the course notes etc that I have relate to the software.
Does anybody know where I can get a copy of it.

Thank you.

sydthebeat · 05-03-2008 9:21am

the actual DEAP software is only available to registered BER assessors AFAIK.

ruskin · 08-03-2008 5:28pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the actual DEAP software is only available to registered BER assessors AFAIK.

No, its not. If you do the course online, you get a link to download the software as many times as you want

Gumbo · 08-03-2008 6:03pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the actual DEAP software is only available to registered BER assessors AFAIK.

i have it on CD here, got it when i started the course.

smooth operater · 08-03-2008 8:13pm

You can download an excell sheet that does it.....I'd usually use that first before throwing it on the software

bauderline · 09-03-2008 10:28am

Folks,

I assume there is nothing stoping any interested party in doing the online course as long as they cough up the funds... sounds like a very enlightening course !

b.

holdfast · 09-03-2008 8:38pm

would like to have seen a bit about your background and experience. This will allow the customer to make a better judgement on you been an expert ????????

sinnerboy · 09-03-2008 9:59pm

bauderline wrote: »

Folks,

I assume there is nothing stoping any interested party in doing the online course as long as they cough up the funds... sounds like a very enlightening course !

b.

mixed blessing . course providers seem to simply cash the checks , bums on seats . 30% fail rate .

there were some on my course wholly unsuited . i did not start out just yesterday and i found the course tough going . others had there head melted .

BL it's a very expensive week ( 1.8K ) if you don't follow up on it . to follow up will cost 1k for year 1 and 500 pa after that SEI registration . then PI insurance .

just hire a good BER assessor for 5-600 ( some one with many years in construction beforehand - architect , structural engineer , QS or m+e services engineer )

spend the rest on cushions ( you know she will never have enough of them )

sydthebeat · 10-03-2008 4:40pm

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1543&docID=-1

i see SEI have released the DEAP xls software with the 2008 regs onboard...

when will they release the updated DEAP software?
I would have though that would be more important, unless the software is xls based anyway and this is part of the process...

sinnerboy · 10-03-2008 4:41pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1543&docID=-1

i see SEI have released the DEAP xls software with the 2008 regs onboard...

when will they release the updated DEAP software?
I would have though that would be more important, unless the software is xls based anyway and this is part of the process...

see post 109

sydthebeat · 10-03-2008 4:51pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

see post 109

doh..

"third quarter of 2008"........ hummm.......

fodda · 10-03-2008 7:14pm

If the rate was supposed to be upto 500euro for a property assessment and now it is being advertised at under 275 (maybe even less) after only a few months, well with 2000+ Assessors do you think it could be under 100euro before very long??

smooth operater · 11-03-2008 3:38pm

Well if SEI keep allowin random people to do the course it'll spiral downwards and the service will be pointless as these randomers wont have a clue

However, the 570 figure is for an audit, the 275 is drawing based

fodda · 11-03-2008 8:27pm

Thought about this for a while and surely whoever attended the course and passed the exam must have as much knowlege as needed to check properties and issue the certificate.

As regards the property owner, all they are interested in is getting as high a rating as possible for as small a fee as possible unless they have asked for another/more in depth kind of service.

sinnerboy · 11-03-2008 8:49pm

fodda wrote: »

Thought about this for a while and surely whoever attended the course and passed the exam must have as much knowlege as needed to check properties and issue the certificate.

As regards the property owner, all they are interested in is getting as high a rating as possible for as small a fee as possible unless they have asked for another/more in depth kind of service.

In the context of , from Jan 2009 onwards , all buildings being sold or let I think you essentially correct Fodda .

Cheap inspection , high rating will be chased . I have passed the BER test and a perversity I have noticed is that the more forensic you are at REALLY assessing a property the "worse" the rating becomes . a better assesor will tend to arrive at a "worse" rating

I foresee 2 types of assessor emerging .

type 1
A technically competent assessor with years and years of experience of building behind him/her .

type 2
The second kind will give "what the market wants" . In my own opinion SEI will not be able to police this - not a chance in hell

Use this first type of guy/girl to give you the truth about your self build ideas

If your flogging / renting and have different motivations ....

fodda · 12-03-2008 11:44am

I understand you exactly Sinnerboy.

So before long the cert will probably be under 100euro maybe.

But to do your more in depth survey and self build advice etc you dont need to be qualified as an Assessor do you?? and when the cert price comes right down all of the money you have spent on courses etc will be wasted as for you probably cant be bothered to compete with cut price certs????

sinnerboy · 12-03-2008 12:35pm

Fodda at the homebond seminar in citywest , dublin about a month back SEI indicated

they believe 2000 assessors will be required in Jan . I think this is way under estimated

to ( that ) date
800 had passed the BER test , like me
250 had registered , not like me

SEI also issue "consumer advice" to expect to pay € 250-300 for a cert .... ( out of which SEI get €25 and tax man to be paid etc ... )

I am not rushing to register

the training was invaluable ( i work in architecture ) to design and specify to acheive good BER rating + B regs compliance

but to register or not ...... I'll wait and see

fodda · 12-03-2008 2:05pm

But if you arent registered does that mean you cant issue a cert on work you undertake assessing the property???? or doesnt it make any difference as long as you passed the course exam???

Say each assessor does one property per day multiplied by 2000 assessors and 52 weeks of the year = 520,000 properties per year.

Well there will be very few sales for years to come so these will be mainly rentals.

Anybody got figures on amount of properties rented per year??

sinnerboy · 12-03-2008 2:13pm

fodda wrote: »

But if you arent registered does that mean you cant issue a cert on work you undertake assessing the property???? or doesnt it make any difference as long as you passed the course exam???

no only those registered can issue certs

fodda · 12-03-2008 2:25pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

no only those registered can issue certs

Sorry should have read your reply properly......and we crossed on my other post.

fodda · 12-03-2008 8:41pm

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/privhseholdsprovcountcity2002.htm

Well according to this site there appears to be less than 1,288,000 private households in 2002.

Lets just say that there is now an extra 500,000 making it around 1 and 3/4 million households.

Well if every single house was sold or rented then that means there is around 3 years work max for the 2000 assessors.

What do you think????

sinnerboy · 12-03-2008 11:57pm

every BUILDING sold or rented from jan 2009 will need BER label

to assess an existing building will take more than one day
visit building , measure up , walls , windows , doors ,roofs . tabulate areas . assign u values , assess heating and ventilation . enter into DEAP . lot of work , lot of time

fodda · 13-03-2008 9:11am

I understand and dont doubt the amount of work involved.

fodda · 13-03-2008 1:52pm

If each course is around 1800 and there are 3 courses, well thats 5400.

Then to get registered and pay for software with your PI insurence say around 2000.

Then you will have forked out in the region of 7500 to be able to assess new...old and commercial properties.

If the price does drop due to the amount of assessors competing for work then it will be a long time before it pays for it's self....What do you think????

sydthebeat · 13-03-2008 2:22pm

fodda wrote: »

If each course is around 1800 and there are 3 courses, well thats 5400.

Then to get registered and pay for software with your PI insurence say around 2000.

Then you will have forked out in the region of 7500 to be able to assess new...old and commercial properties.

If the price does drop due to the amount of assessors competing for work then it will be a long time before it pays for it's self....What do you think????

1. generally each course shouldnt cost the same
2. the charges for commercial BERs will be much greater than domestic
3. PI insurance is as low as €400 for €1 million indemnity
4. you dont pay for the software as a separate cost.

fodda · 13-03-2008 4:11pm

Ok so with the initial outlay on courses etc..........then to register and get insured etc.

Then with the amount of Assessors and falling cert survey charges.

Added to that the lack of houses being sold for what looks like many years to come and also too many houses around empty so not being rented.

Is it worth spending all this money to qualify as an Assessor for what looks like a diminishing market and what potential customers there are, are being chased by many people.?????

sydthebeat · 13-03-2008 4:15pm

fodda wrote: »

Ok so with the initial outlay on courses etc..........then to register and get insured etc.

Then with the amount of Assessors and falling cert survey charges.

Added to that the lack of houses being sold for what looks like many years to come and also too many houses around empty so not being rented.

Is it worth spending all this money to qualify as an Assessor for what looks like a diminishing market and what potential customers there are, are being chased by many people.?????

I certainly wouldnt do it to try to make a full time living out of it as a speciality. The vast majority of assessors i know do it as a part of another professional, be it mechanical engineer, architectural technician, qs etc.

I also know of assessors who intend doing them as nixers.

fodda · 13-03-2008 4:27pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I certainly wouldnt do it to try to make a full time living out of it as a speciality. The vast majority of assessors i know do it as a part of another professional, be it mechanical engineer, architectural technician, qs etc.

I also know of assessors who intend doing them as nixers.

How do you mean.. "nixers" ????

smashey · 13-03-2008 4:38pm

fodda wrote: »

How do you mean.. "nixers" ????

Jobs on the side or on the quiet to supplement their income.

smooth operater · 13-03-2008 4:47pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I certainly wouldnt do it to try to make a full time living out of it as a speciality. The vast majority of assessors i know do it as a part of another professional, be it mechanical engineer, architectural technician, qs etc.

I also know of assessors who intend doing them as nixers.

Yep, i really don't think its a "standalone business", not enough work out there

fodda · 13-03-2008 7:41pm

Yep and after reading your stuff here then i dont think i will continue down this line as for part time work i could get eleswhere without parting with all that cash and maybe better paid aswell.

Perhaps the thing to do on this subject is start a training course as that seems to be where the money is.

fodda · 14-03-2008 12:10am

I know somewhere it must be an offence if you havent got a Cert when offering the place for sale or rent, but how can this be enforced ?

Example .... if I want to rent a house and it hasnt got a Cert how the hell can anybody stop me whether I pay by cheque or give the man cash it is upto me what I do with my money, who I give it to and for what.

If I want to buy a place would a bank or solicitor refuse the mortgage or to complete on the basis that I havent got an energy sticker to show them as I might be buying to improve.

sydthebeat · 14-03-2008 12:14am

fodda wrote: »

I know somewhere it must be an offence if you havent got a Cert when offering the place for sale or rent, but how can this be enforced ?

Example .... if I want to rent a house and it hasnt got a Cert how the hell can anybody stop me whether I pay by cheque or give the man cash it is upto me what I do with my money, who I give it to and for what.

If I want to buy a place would a bank or solicitor refuse the mortgage or to complete on the basis that I havent got an energy sticker to show them as I might be buying to improve.

The BER will be required as a document of sale the same way a cert of compliance or land registry folio etc are currently required. They will be requested by solicitors.
If the clients want to purchase without, fine..... but that generally wouldnt be advised by the solicitor for tehpurchaser.

smooth operater · 14-03-2008 12:59pm

I really dont think it wil be enforced to existing buildings, the only way it'll be done is if the buyer requests it

sinnerboy · 14-03-2008 1:05pm

smooth operater wrote: »

I really dont think it wil be enforced to existing buildings, the only way it'll be done is if the buyer requests it

local authorities will be able to request " on demand" .

wait and see ....

sydthebeat · 14-03-2008 1:06pm

smooth operater wrote: »

I really dont think it wil be enforced to existing buildings, the only way it'll be done is if the buyer requests it

No, its the same thing

it will be requested as part of the conveyancing procedure. There was an article about this in a recent law society journal.

smooth operater · 14-03-2008 1:09pm

Excellent, now if they enforce the renting market we'd be laughing aswel!

sydthebeat · 14-03-2008 1:16pm

you make a very good point about the rental market.

How will that be enforced?, it simply cannot be left to the 'renter', and if 'rentee' requests it whats stopping him from being told to feck off.

hummm.....

sinnerboy · 14-03-2008 2:30pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you make a very good point about the rental market.

How will that be enforced?, it simply cannot be left to the 'renter', and if 'rentee' requests it whats stopping him from being told to feck off.

hummm.....

some s******y landlords will make the tenants pay for it

Ber Direct · 21-03-2008 7:48pm

<SNIP> fully qualified....................

Edit: And now fully disqualified. You are the weakest link - goodbye.

ardara1 · 26-03-2008 11:10pm

UK Building Mag on EPC's

Leading providers claim certificates will set back building owners anywhere between £500 to over £20,000

The bulk of non-domestic energy performance certificates will cost between £4-6,000, leading providers claimed this week.

Early estimates vary, with the sum of £500 being given for the very smallest premises below 100msq to thousands for more significant buildings. some providers have said.

A spokesperson for the BRE said that most EPCs will cost between £5-10,000 but added was too early to be more specific. “There are a lot of ‘unknowns,’ on which the estimate will depend. These include the number and usage of zones are in the building, the method of heating and cooling and whether the original drawings are available. But the floor area will be the most important.”

And while having manuals and plans to hand will save time, assessors will still need to check the facts. EPC assessors will have to make sure that the building is being used for the listed purposes and that no extensions have been added.

Greg Dunn of Leicestershire-based Elmhurst Energy Systems agreed with the assessment: “Most surveyors charge £1,000 a day for medium and large buildings. I can imagine £4-5,000 would be the cost of assessing a Level 3 building. Some large hospitals will see bills of £20,000 or more.”

But others refused to be drawn into talks of pricing, having had their fingers burnt before. “We have taken a lot of flack about DEA fees,” said Brian Scannell of NES, “despite having given the caveat that market forces will dictate the prices.

“So … we are incredibly reluctant to get drawn into discussions about fees for commercial EPCs. We simply state it’s up to each individual to negotiate with their clients.”

BERk8 · 27-03-2008 1:40am

The Government has copped out again on this one, just like the NCT! All they need to do is incorporate it into the planning process et voila, SI 666 EPBD is a useful piece of legislation.

DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

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