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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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Comments

  • #652
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Come on Martina, be somewhat reasonable...

    How long does it take to wait on the results of a blood test at peak times? Could the patient be referred to GP if they are not having an MI or bleeding from the jugular...

    Most people attending A&E are neither accident nor emergency. Nurses could play a role in making quicker assessments and getting throughput

    They have similar knowledge to doctors...and an experience nurse probably has better intuitions than a doctor...

    It takes less than 1 hour for blood test results to come back from A and E. You can't refer a patient from A and E to a GP because they are booked up with appointments. That's why people resort to coming to A and E.

    What resources would you cut?


  • #653
    Ninthlife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭Ninthlife


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    No you get more money if you use less resources, and achieve faster throughput. Everyone can work more efficiently, and nurses are no exception

    Clearly, patient health and safety are paramount, but there are more efficient ways to do things...keep things moving...use less resources...more efficient routines...two steps instead of three

    Its the little things when they add up that make a difference

    How many staff would you need to administer such a scheme? Would cost more to run than anything


  • #654
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    It takes less than 1 hour for blood test results to come back from A and E. You can't refer a patient from A and E to a GP because they are booked up with appointments. That's why people resort to coming to A and E.

    What resources would you cut?

    Of course, you can if its not an emergency. If its not an emergency, people should be referred back. In Dublin, we have dubdoc...you get an appointment at short notice

    The triage nurse plays a major role in the A&E department IMO. Although my experience is quite limited, I've spent quite a few nights in A&E, and was quite shocked by how healthy many of the people were...if the triage nurse could screen out the time and money wasters, it would improve throughput?

    Would it not?


  • #655
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Of course, you can if its not an emergency. If its not an emergency, people should be referred back. In Dublin, we have dubdoc...you get an appointment at short notice

    The triage nurse plays a major role in the A&E department IMO. Although my experience is quite limited, I've spent quite a few nights in A&E, and was quite shocked by how healthy many of the people were...if the triage nurse could screen out the time and money wasters, it would improve throughput?

    Would it not?

    Moving a problem around does not solve it for one thing. What is going to happen when a nurse sends someone to a GP and there is a negative outcome? Patient turns out to be seriously ill despite appearances. Patient deteriorates before GP intervenes.


  • #656
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Of course, you can if its not an emergency. If its not an emergency, people should be referred back. In Dublin, we have dubdoc...you get an appointment at short notice

    The triage nurse plays a major role in the A&E department IMO. Although my experience is quite limited, I've spent quite a few nights in A&E, and was quite shocked by how healthy many of the people were...if the triage nurse could screen out the time and money wasters, it would improve throughput?

    Would it not?

    Services would not be that fast or effective outside of Dublin.

    No one comes to A and E for the craic. So many illnesses are invisible to the public. Just because you don't see people writhing in agony doesn't mean they don't need medical attention.


  • #657
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Geuze wrote: »
    College lecturers are paid fairly well.

    37k-84k.

    Eh! A college lecturer on 37k is being paid fairly well?


  • #658
    Zico
    Registered Users Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭Zico


    I think medical professionals should be very well paid but someone else should pay them.


  • #659
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    Weighing in on the topic at hand, I do think nurses should have their pay restored (not a pay rise). Comparing it to some of the other medical professions below, their pay scales are the lowest for the degree and qualifications they require. Each one has opportunities to boost their wages with extra shifts/ on call payment, but for the work that is carried out, payment should be restored in line with the other professions.

    Nurse
    1. 29,056
    2. 31,110
    3. 32,171
    4. 33,367
    5. 34,876
    6. 36,383
    7. 37,883
    8. 39,180
    9. 40,480
    10. 41,775
    11. 43,070
    12. 44,343
    13. 45,701

    Pharmacist
    1. 33,491
    2. 36,150
    3. 37,099
    4. 40,054
    5. 42,860
    6. 45,700
    7. 48,551
    8. 51,438
    9. 54,342
    10. 57,300
    11. 60,311
    12. 63,379
    13. 64,611

    Occupational Therapist
    1. 35,672
    2. 37,784
    3. 39,522
    4. 40,786
    5. 41,856
    6. 42,965
    7. 44,059
    8. 45,184
    9. 46,301
    10. 47,418
    11. 48,595
    12. 49,833
    13. 51,069
    14. 52,059

    Medical Scientist
    1. 32,692
    2. 34,051
    3. 36,211
    4. 37,235
    5. 38,208
    6. 40,510
    7. 41,999
    8. 43,503
    9. 45,032
    10. 46,558
    11. 48,089
    12. 49,632
    13. 51,185
    14. 52,756
    15. 54,282
    16. 55,331

    Physio
    1. 35,672
    2. 37,784
    3. 39,522
    4. 40,786
    5. 41,856
    6. 42,965
    7. 44,059
    8. 45,184
    9. 46,301
    10. 47,418
    11. 48,595
    12. 49,833
    13. 51,069
    14. 52,059

    Radiographer
    1. 34,242
    2. 36,228
    3. 37,933
    4. 39,025
    5. 40,135
    6. 41,259
    7. 42,352
    8. 43,442
    9. 44,573
    10. 45,678
    11. 46,746
    12. 47,843
    13. 48,976
    14. 50,040


  • #660
    obby1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 100 ✭✭obby1


    the Healy-Rae brothers are on close to 100k as a TD, and people round here think nurses are over paid?


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  • #661
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Weighing in on the topic at hand, I do think nurses should have their pay restored (not a pay rise). Comparing it to some of the other medical professions below, their pay scales are the lowest for the degree and qualifications they require. Each one has opportunities to boost their wages with extra shifts/ on call payment, but for the work that is carried out, payment should be restored in line with the other professions.


    Nurses are an extremely critical part of our Health Care System but each of those other professions have more responsibility in determining what care path to take for the patient (maybe not pharmacists who to a large degree are operating on Dr's instructions, AFAIK)

    Nurses do not have to make critical decisions such as this. They react to a Dr's instructions, again, as I understand it.

    I'm not trying to be insulting here, let me give an example of a profession I am more familiar with.
    An electrician must train for 4 years. An Engineer must train for 4 years. the Engineer can expect to earn more because they will generally be responsible for design decisions in a way that an electrician will not.

    (I know an electrician does not have a degree but they do block release in college in a similar fashion to nurses.)
    I know nurses have to perform critical actions which could have life altering implications, but so too must the electrician.


  • #662
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    obby1 wrote: »
    the Healy-Rae brothers are on close to 100k as a TD, and people round here think nurses are over paid?

    That's an irrelevant point. The Healy-Raes were elected to those roles by their constituents (as were all other TD's).


  • #663
    MaryBrosnan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 110 ✭✭MaryBrosnan


    obby1 wrote: »
    the Healy-Rae brothers are on close to 100k as a TD, and people round here think nurses are over paid?

    I hope it’s 100k combined not each.


  • #664
    obby1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 100 ✭✭obby1


    MaryBrosnan wrote: »
    I hope it’s 100k combined not each.

    each, and excluding expenses


  • #665
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Weighing in on the topic at hand, I do think nurses should have their pay restored (not a pay rise). Comparing it to some of the other medical professions below, their pay scales are the lowest for the degree and qualifications they require. Each one has opportunities to boost their wages with extra shifts/ on call payment, but for the work that is carried out, payment should be restored in line with the other professions.

    Nurse
    1. 29,056
    2. 31,110
    3. 32,171
    4. 33,367
    5. 34,876
    6. 36,383
    7. 37,883
    8. 39,180
    9. 40,480
    10. 41,775
    11. 43,070
    12. 44,343
    13. 45,701

    Pharmacist
    1. 33,491
    2. 36,150
    3. 37,099
    4. 40,054
    5. 42,860
    6. 45,700
    7. 48,551
    8. 51,438
    9. 54,342
    10. 57,300
    11. 60,311
    12. 63,379
    13. 64,611

    Occupational Therapist
    1. 35,672
    2. 37,784
    3. 39,522
    4. 40,786
    5. 41,856
    6. 42,965
    7. 44,059
    8. 45,184
    9. 46,301
    10. 47,418
    11. 48,595
    12. 49,833
    13. 51,069
    14. 52,059

    Medical Scientist
    1. 32,692
    2. 34,051
    3. 36,211
    4. 37,235
    5. 38,208
    6. 40,510
    7. 41,999
    8. 43,503
    9. 45,032
    10. 46,558
    11. 48,089
    12. 49,632
    13. 51,185
    14. 52,756
    15. 54,282
    16. 55,331

    Physio
    1. 35,672
    2. 37,784
    3. 39,522
    4. 40,786
    5. 41,856
    6. 42,965
    7. 44,059
    8. 45,184
    9. 46,301
    10. 47,418
    11. 48,595
    12. 49,833
    13. 51,069
    14. 52,059

    Radiographer
    1. 34,242
    2. 36,228
    3. 37,933
    4. 39,025
    5. 40,135
    6. 41,259
    7. 42,352
    8. 43,442
    9. 44,573
    10. 45,678
    11. 46,746
    12. 47,843
    13. 48,976
    14. 50,040

    If you look at the top end of the scale, there is comparability with the exception of pharmacists... this makes sense


  • #666
    MaryBrosnan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 110 ✭✭MaryBrosnan


    What is the average SuperValu wage?


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  • #667
    Zico
    Registered Users Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭Zico


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Nurses are an extremely critical part of our Health Care System but each of those other professions have more responsibility in determining what care path to take for the patient (maybe not pharmacists who to a large degree are operating on Dr's instructions, AFAIK)

    Nurses do not have to make critical decisions such as this. They react to a Dr's instructions, again, as I understand it.

    I'm not trying to be insulting here, let me give an example of a profession I am more familiar with.
    An electrician must train for 4 years. An Engineer must train for 4 years. the Engineer can expect to earn more because they will generally be responsible for design decisions in a way that an electrician will not.

    (I know an electrician does not have a degree but they do block release in college in a similar fashion to nurses.)
    I know nurses have to perform critical actions which could have life altering implications, but so too must the electrician.

    Maybe that's the way forward, let nurses bill for their services the way trades people do.


  • #668
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    MaryBrosnan wrote: »
    What is the average SuperValu wage?

    Why does it matter?


  • #669
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Come on Martina, be somewhat reasonable...

    How long does it take to wait on the results of a blood test at peak times? Could the patient be referred to GP if they are not having an MI or bleeding from the jugular...

    Most people attending A&E are neither accident nor emergency. Nurses could play a role in making quicker assessments and getting throughput

    They have similar knowledge to doctors...and an experience nurse probably has better intuitions than a doctor...

    I don't think you don't understand what you're talking about. How do you outrule an MI without at least one blood test?


  • #670
    Dia1988
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭Dia1988


    Nurses are not as qualified as other medical professionals.
    It's insane to equate nurse qualification to that of O.T's, physios, pharmacists etc!

    If you take your logic, should we not have pay parity for nurses aids and First Aiders?


  • #671
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,305 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Zico wrote: »
    I think medical professionals should be very well paid but someone else should pay them.
    Who do you suggest?
    Public private partnerships tend to end so well....


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  • #672
    MaryBrosnan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 110 ✭✭MaryBrosnan


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Why does it matter?

    Could be relevant here.


  • #673
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Zico wrote: »
    Maybe that's the way forward, let nurses bill for their services the way trades people do.

    If you think it would work with them sourcing their own work, providing their own tools, transport and insurance then it might be an option.

    Not all electricians are self-employed by the way.


  • #674
    Zico
    Registered Users Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭Zico


    gmisk wrote: »
    Who do you suggest?
    Public private partnerships tend to end so well....

    Pay as you go like electricians


  • #675
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    I don't think you don't understand what you're talking about. How do you outrule an MI without at least one blood test?

    Of course if an MI is suspected a blood test, ECG, and other tests should be conducted...

    ...but should we waste time on someone with the sniffles


  • #676
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    Dia1988 wrote: »
    Nurses are not as qualified as other medical professionals.
    It's insane to equate nurse qualification to that of O.T's, physios, pharmacists etc!

    If you take your logic, should we not have pay parity for nurses aids and First Aiders?

    Says who?


  • #677
    Dia1988
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭Dia1988


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Says who?

    Someone I know who is a nurse!


  • #678
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,305 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Zico wrote: »
    Pay as you go like electricians
    Rrrrright how would that work?
    Honestly.

    Nurses get paid for number of hours they work.
    You are suggesting they get paid for how many patients are in there care? Would there be different pay for different jobs they undertake?

    Electricians imo are not comparable to nurses.


  • #679
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    Dia1988 wrote: »
    Someone I know who is a nurse!

    Well that provides a strong evidence base for your argument...

    Leo and Simon can rest easy tonight....


  • #680
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    gmisk wrote: »
    Rrrrright how would that work?
    Honestly.

    Nurses get paid for number of hours they work.
    You are suggesting they get paid for how many patients are in there care? Would there be different pay for different jobs they undertake?

    Electricians imo are not comparable to nurses.

    They are being obtuse because I used electricians/engineers in a previous post as a comparison to this discussion. Post #662


  • #681
    cute geoge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Do nurses realise this country can not afford their pay demands!!!
    A no deal hard brexit could bankrupt this country ,the government have proposed higher property tax on the horizon ,how many more extra ways they can cripple us with tax??


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  • #682
    MaryBrosnan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 110 ✭✭MaryBrosnan


    cute geoge wrote: »
    Do nurses realise this country can not afford their pay demands!!!
    A no deal hard brexit could bankrupt this country ,the government have proposed higher property tax on the horizon ,how many more extra ways they can cripple us with tax??

    Brexit won’t happen.


  • #683
    obby1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 100 ✭✭obby1


    MaryBrosnan wrote: »
    Brexit won’t happen.

    its so obvious, no way will they leave.


  • #684
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,474 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Dia1988 wrote: »
    Nurses are not as qualified as other medical professionals.
    It's insane to equate nurse qualification to that of O.T's, physios, pharmacists etc!

    If you take your logic, should we not have pay parity for nurses aids and First Aiders?

    I’d have never equated Nursing with those hugely technical professions. I know several people with very poor Leaving Certificates that got through Nursing degrees. There’s no way they’d have been able for Pharmscy or Radiography.

    I’m surprised Pharmacist and Radiographer salaries in the PS are so low tbh given what they would have gone through to qualify.


  • #685
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    MaryBrosnan wrote: »
    Brexit won’t happen.

    Please join us on the Brexit discussion thread and let us know why not?

    Brexit

    We are looking for some clarity over there. Good to see someone knows what is going on.


  • #686
    Dia1988
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭Dia1988


    MaryBrosnan wrote: »
    Brexit won’t happen.

    Ah give over Mary will ya!


  • #687
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,305 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Tell me how wrote: »
    They are being obtuse because I used electricians/engineers in a previous post as a comparison to this discussion.
    Ah OK, it's a big thread must have missed that.

    I personally think looking at the average wage nurses are underpaid I would support a pay increase.
    I know a few nurses personally who work extremely hard and go above and beyond in Dublin, my mum was one for many years also during the troubles in Belfast, its a really tough job.


  • #688
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,474 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    cute geoge wrote: »
    Do nurses realise this country can not afford their pay demands!!!
    A no deal hard brexit could bankrupt this country ,the government have proposed higher property tax on the horizon ,how many more extra ways they can cripple us with tax??

    None because we are at peak tax- as I’ve stated previously that well is close to dry and additional taxes to fund bloated public spending won’t work in another downturn. The only other option will be pay and welfare cuts


  • #689
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    gmisk wrote: »
    Ah OK, it's a big thread must have missed that.

    I personally think looking at the average wage nurses are underpaid I would support a pay increase.
    I know a few nurses personally who work extremely hard and go above and beyond in Dublin, my mum was one for many years also during the troubles in Belfast, its a really tough job.

    It is but the average (for all nurses in the system) of 57K for a 39 Hr week, guaranteed job and pension seems reasonable.

    I would like to see the new entrants get more sooner than so many nursing managerial staff skewing the average.


  • #690
    Dia1988
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭Dia1988


    road_high wrote: »
    I’d have never equated Nursing with those hugely technical professions. I know several people with very poor Leaving Certificates that got through Nursing degrees. There’s no way they’d have been able for Pharmscy or Radiography.

    I’m surprised Pharmacist and Radiographer salaries in the PS are so low tbh given what they would have gone through to qualify.

    Yes, I agree.

    A lot of pharmacists work in private sector and not just in pharmacies.
    Companies such as Phyzers and Glaxo Smith pay quite lucrative salaries for these professionals.


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  • #691
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Of course if an MI is suspected a blood test, ECG, and other tests should be conducted...

    ...but should we waste time on someone with the sniffles

    Lots of people have atypical chest pain, no one with a pain in their chest is going to be discharged without an ECG, xray or bloods.
    How do you know the person with the sniffles hasn't developed a post viral pneumonia without a physical exam and maybe bloods and xray.

    It's very easy for someone in your position who I imagine has limits medical experience to say traiage nurses should be discharging patients at triage. The consequences of a mistake are massive. Every nurse and doctor will tell you of people they expected to have a mild illness who had a serious condition which only become evident following investigations.


  • #692
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    Dia1988 wrote: »
    Yes, I agree.

    A lot of pharmacists work in private sector and not just in pharmacies.
    Companies such as Phyzers and Glaxo Smith pay quite lucrative salaries for these professionals.

    It is Pfizer not Phyzers...

    Maybe stick to your sphere of expertise...whatever that is...


  • #693
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,305 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Tell me how wrote: »
    It is but the average (for all nurses in the system) of 57K for a 39 Hr week, guaranteed job and pension seems reasonable.

    I would like to see the new entrants get more sooner than so many nursing managerial staff skewing the average.
    Do you have a link to those figures?

    I totally agree about new entrants.
    Unions etc really screwed over new staff, pretty despicable, it happened with teachers etc too.


  • #694
    Zico
    Registered Users Posts: 1,416 ✭✭✭Zico


    gmisk wrote: »
    Rrrrright how would that work?
    Honestly.

    Nurses get paid for number of hours they work.
    You are suggesting they get paid for how many patients are in there care? Would there be different pay for different jobs they undertake?

    Electricians imo are not comparable to nurses.

    Indeed then how can their wages be compared?

    Nurses should be better paid but until you actually need one you don't appreciate their value. If there was a way of paying for their services per use as an add on to their salary it might be easier than raising taxes to fund a pay rise across the board.


  • #695
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,474 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Zico wrote: »
    but someone else should pay them.

    That’s pretty much the jist of this latest pay demand !


  • #696
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    Dia1988 wrote:
    Nurses are not as qualified as other medical professionals. It's insane to equate nurse qualification to that of O.T's, physios, pharmacists etc!
    What do you mean not as qualified.

    Each qualification qualifies the person to do the job their qualified to do.

    You appear to be hinting at levels of intelligence rather than different professions.
    Should the people who got the most points in the leaving cert earn more money?


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  • #697
    MaryBrosnan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 110 ✭✭MaryBrosnan


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Please join us on the Brexit discussion thread and let us know why not?

    Brexit

    We are looking for some clarity over there. Good to see someone knows what is going on.

    Dai will be manager in SuperValu long before a Brexit. That is a fact.


  • #698
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,474 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    It is Pfizer not Phyzers...

    Maybe stick to your sphere of expertise...whatever that is...

    Give us the money but don’t dare have an opinion or ask a few probing questions seems to some up the discussion for some here


  • #699
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,305 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Zico wrote: »
    Indeed then how can their wages be compared?

    Nurses should be better paid but until you actually need one you don't appreciate their value. If there was a way of paying for their services per use as an add on to their salary it might be easier than raising taxes to fund a pay rise across the board.

    They can't be imo.. you suggested it... so you tell me how?
    Pay per use...realistically how would that work?


  • #700
    alexmalalex
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 139 ✭✭alexmalalex


    road_high wrote: »
    Give us the money but don’t dare have an opinion or ask a few probing questions seems to some up the discussion for some here

    I'm not a nurse...but I have the greatest admiration for what they do, the hours that they work, and the conditions they work under...

    I think we can afford to restore their wages per Martina's post


  • #701
    Dia1988
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭Dia1988


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    What do you mean not as qualified.

    Each qualification qualifies the person to do the job their qualified to do.

    You appear to be hinting at levels of intelligence rather than different professions.
    Should the people who got the most points in the leaving cert earn more money?

    No, don't be silly, the L.C is used to gain entry to 3rd level courses.

    However, the L.C is a test to weed out and segregate mental capacities and memory performance and indeed hard work.

    Is it a coincidence that Nursing is 400pts and Pharmacy is 580pts?


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