10 minute Dart frequency: Union and other issues

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

Drivers choose to mentor trainee drivers and are paid an allowance for this. A driver who is not a mentor is under no obligation to take a trainee.

On the Luas dispute thread, people were saying that CIE are tough negotiators and don't cave to the unions. The above is an example on how soft CIE actually are. What company in their right mind would agree to a mentoring clause and allowance, when training new recruits? IR have only themselves to blame here, they bought the rope and made the noose around their neck.

Elemonator wrote: »

It's hardly a sense of entitlement. It's called reality and unfortunately for DART drivers, it is not amenable to their feelings.

DART drivers (and Luas drivers for that matter) drivers have very little training requirements (its about 7 weeks, or half a college year!), no years at college breaking your arse to get the job, no student loans to pay off yet think they should be paid a premium wage for an ordinary job. Now that is a real sense of entitlement. I am all for people getting high wages but this simply doesn't work, no matter what rose-tinted glasses you see through. Everyone is entitled to a decent wage but it must reflect the demand for it, the skill level required to do the job, education level required (many jobs require a college education now), experience etc otherwise every single service or product we buy will shoot up in price to cover higher wages.

And by the way, my degree is BCL (Law) with Economics, and I'm breaking my arse with it. So yes I should earn more, I have a higher skill set.

Are you paying the full cost of your degree ? If not do you think you should ? If not why ? Who do you think pays the full cost of your degree ?

How much extra tax is the average IR or Luas driver paying to put people like yourself through college ? Do you think it would be fairer if you and other studentsb paid for that yourself and IR/luas drivers kept more or their own income negating the need for an increase in pay ?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

On the Luas dispute thread, people were saying that CIE are tough negotiators and don't cave to the unions. The above is an example on how soft CIE actually are. What company in their right mind would agree to a mentoring clause and allowance, when training new recruits? IR have only themselves to blame here, they bought the rope and made the noose around their neck.

It's not has simple as that . A Train driver is safety critical role were you need to be concentrating at all times, if a trainee is in the cab and asking questions this can distract them, if they miss something or fail to carry out a part of there duites they take the blame, they are paid an allowance for this added risk and some drivers don't think it's worth the small allowance they get for this.

Elemonator wrote: »

As I matter of a fact, I am paying the full cost of my degree. I volunteered that much. Your average student pays 3000 euro of their fees every year so no one person pays for it. And then students pay for transport and possibly accommodation on top of that. The pay increase for drivers will eventually be passed onto the customer for no increase in quality or frequency of services.

With regards the tax subject, lets take your average Luas driver salary of about 36,000 euros. They will lose about 8,000 on taxes very roughly. About 1000 euros will go on education and that includes colleges but also secondary and primary schools amongst other things, so the full 1000 does not go towards colleges and degrees. So 12.5pc of taxes go on education for those earnings.

So lets take your average student who emerges from college and gets a good job and pays taxes. Most of our taxes are spent on social programmes, 32.2pc on pensions. Who taps into the pensions? The drivers. I somehow think they will come out ahead compared to the amount their taxes paid for each individual student.

Most students in Ireland today probably won't even see a state pension, as the population lives longer and grows.

Students on average pay about 20% of the cost of their course, ie €3000 for some that €3000 would be a much higher percentage of the actual cost for some a much lower than 20% cost of their course, yeah they have to pay for transport and accommodation so what they are adults, you don't think taxpayers should be funding every element of their life do you ?


No 32% of what the government spends goes on social protection that includes all social welfare payments less than a third of that is spent on state pensions, for which the average PAYE worker will have paid tax and prsi for over 40 years towards

Now we have no guarantee any student will stay here and pay anything back into the system from which they so richly benefited, and the irony that so many here talk about snouts in the trough but have no problem with working class people funding their 3rd level education which most of their own children will never benefit from, and then they have the brass neck to bemoan those same taxpayers who they have no problem dipping their wages to fund their education for having the audacity to look for a wage increase to keep their head above water.


You would think these students would have a bit more appreciation for the people paying for the education which will some day earn them more money than those working class taxpayers could even dream of.

Dublin 6 99% going to college
Dublin 4 84%

Dublin 10 16%
Dublin 17 15%

cdebru wrote: »

Students on average pay about 20% of the cost of their course, ie €3000 for some that €3000 would be a much higher percentage of the actual cost for some a much lower than 20% cost of their course, yeah they have to pay for transport and accommodation so what they are adults, you don't think taxpayers should be funding every element of their life do you ?


No 32% of what the government spends goes on social protection that includes all social welfare payments less than a third of that is spent on state pensions, for which the average PAYE worker will have paid tax and prsi for over 40 years towards

Now we have no guarantee any student will stay here and pay anything back into the system from which they so richly benefited, and the irony that so many here talk about snouts in the trough but have no problem with working class people funding their 3rd level education which most of their own children will never benefit from, and then they have the brass neck to bemoan those same taxpayers who they have no problem dipping their wages to fund their education for having the audacity to look for a wage increase to keep their head above water.


You would think these students would have a bit more appreciation for the people paying for the education which will some day earn them more money than those working class taxpayers could even dream of.

Dublin 6 99% going to college
Dublin 4 84%

Dublin 10 16%
Dublin 17 15%

The government commit 8,000 roughly for each college student. Their contributions are 3500 when you include the registration fee, levy and "contribution", so thats closer to 30pc. And no absolutely not, I think the grant should be replaced in favour of student loans after seeing the wanton waste of it over the years. But it costs me 146 a month to get to college on the train, that is sheer madness. And that will only increase as DART drivers ask for more and Irish Rail is already an economic basket case, needed 195 million of a subsidy last year. There is only a handful of countries such as the UK in the EU that pay for that extortion. I studied on an exchange programme to Germany last year and the travel cost nothing. The local students and I only had to pay 250 for university. In some German universities, it was 75 euro a semester. This may seem off topic but heres my point. That 250 includes the cost of a public transport ticket. With that ticket, you can use all modes of public transportation half a year at no charge.

With the tax situation, its not like workers are treated unfairly. The public paid taxes for their education too. I think the State pension pays out about 219/229 euro a week depending on your age (non contributory), so about 12,000 a year on average. Taking 36,000 a year, drivers will probably pay 2,500 a year towards social programmes, same number for education. Third of that is 830ish. Giving the average life expectancy is 80 years in Ireland, do the maths and its not they have been hard done by.

I have to stay in Ireland should I go into law which is my preferred option, most European countries are civil law systems while former British Empire and Commonwealth countries are common law. 13,500 graduates left Ireland last year (that number is still falling). About 72,000 graduate in Ireland yearly by my calculations. So only 18pc of grads wave bye bye. So most stay and more will stay in the coming years. They had leave, Ireland had nothing to offer for the guts of 7 years and there still isn't much. Those students couldn't find jobs, those working class people did. In 2005, in excess of 55% went onto college (I think that figure is very small, 98pc of students in my secondary went onto college) and expected to grow at approximately 1% per annum for the next decade. So there's a majority already. There is grants around for everyone to go, again no particular sector of society is hard done by. Plenty of people in my course who are from working class and middle class backgrounds, some with no working parent.

The top 5pc of earners pay 55pc of the tax this country earns too. DART drivers earn about 50,000 a year, way above the average wage even when adjusted for part time workers. That's a good wage and I'd be happy with that. I know families personally who earn 45,000 or less and they survive. I also know a DART driver who bemoans the strikers and who has also enough money to go to America with his family. To introduce the 10 minute DART service, drivers are looking for an increase of up to 25pc. That would make their average salary 62,500 for let's say semi-skilled job. They are hardly broke as it is. They are already paid by the tax payer.

end of the road wrote: »

no, no it really isn't a basket case. 195 million may be half it's operating revenue but in railway terms it really is small money. like i said, it sounds a lot of money but when you really look into it it actually isn't that much.

In railway terms, its small money because its a tiny network relative to the size of other countries. Proportionally speaking its a huge amount.

The reason for it is of course: too many staff, with many of these in the wrong roles, overpaid staff and a lack of investment in technology