Rock on, Rockall! (it's back)

A Dub in Glasgo · 12-06-2019 6:16pm

lawred2 wrote: »

fishing in general is unscrupulous.

Absolutely true

Thousands of offences by Scottish fishing industry escape fines

£63m 'black fish' scam

12-06-2019 6:21pm

Aegir wrote: »

or to put it even simpler, the majority of people that live there want to retain the status quo, which trumps anyone else's claim.

Curiously, you weren't translating that wishes of the majority "trumps anyone else's claim" stuff into a claim of continuing rule in Hong Kong in 1997. You left when the Chinese told you that they'd actually use force if Britain didn't abide by a 19th-century treaty with them. So perhaps you could desist from these attempts to put a veneer of democracy on these last remnants of the British Empire?

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:05pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Who said there was?

You jumped in with claims of Ireland spitting a dummy out. Which evolved into wailing and whinging.

None of which you can back up. Official Ireland has not 'spat' anything out nor gone wailing to anyone. The only statement from the Taoiseach was that a rock in middle of nowhere is not something for Ireland and Scotland to fall out over.

Ireland hasn't changed position on Rockall either by the way. The position held is decades old.

It wouldn't surprise me if Irish trawlers were acting without scruples by the way.. fishing in general is unscrupulous.

Saying Ireland spat out it`s dummy is no reason to be offended and Britain has`nt changed it`s attitude to Rockall-I`m glad the Taoiseach has seen sense and recognises whose jurisdiction Rockall comes under and that Ireland is on borrowed time fishing there although personally I would prefer Britain and Ireland to jointly fish there.
https://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-rockall-4678668-Jun2019/

lawred2 · 12-06-2019 7:08pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Saying Ireland spat out it`s dummy is no reason to be offended and Britain has`nt changed it`s attitude to Rockall-I`m glad the Taoiseach has seen sense and recognises whose jurisdiction Rockall comes under and that Ireland is on borrowed time fishing there although personally I would prefer Britain and Ireland to jointly fish there.
https://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-rockall-4678668-Jun2019/

Ah yeah that old trope

Accuse someone questioning your falsehoods of being offended.

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 7:13pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I`m glad the Taoiseach has seen sense and recognises whose jurisdiction Rockall comes under

What Rob? What are you inventing now?

This was always our position and it remains our position, the EU's position and the UN's.

We take a different view, when the Exclusive Economic Zones were drawn, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea was applied and that treats uninhabited, uninhabitable rocks such as Rockall as if they do not exist. So we accept that Rockall is in United Kingdoms Exclusive Economic Zone, everyone does, but what we don’t accept is that Rockall has a 12 mile exclusive limit around it.

We will continue to fish while you guys summon up the courage to break international law. And that ain't gonna happen is it. (The debacle around the GFA shows that) cue Sturgeon continuing to back down.

recedite · 12-06-2019 7:14pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter or anything but looking at a list of land disputes in regards to Britain and it makes you wonder will they ever learn?

Right now they ones that leap to mind are:
Northern Ireland

Gibraltor

Falklands

At least two of these have resulted in loss of life. Do they every think that they look like the bad guys at this stage?

You forgot the military base on Cyprus and the Chagos Islands.
None of this automatically makes them the bad guys though. Disputes over islands are the downside of "ruling the waves".

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:16pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Ah yeah that old trope

Accuse someone questioning your falsehoods of being offended.

You mentioned people getting shot in the back which is pretty offensive and I did`nt rise to it but that`s not the first time you`ve made offensive comments when you don`t like what`s being said-even if it`s something as innocuous as saying Scotland are sticking up for their fishing rights.

recedite · 12-06-2019 7:16pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

cue Sturgeon continuing to back down.

You've been saying this for a while now.
Any actual evidence of it?

janfebmar · 12-06-2019 7:19pm

recedite wrote: »

You forgot the military base on Cyprus and the Chagos Islands.
None of this automatically makes them the bad guys though. Disputes over islands are the downside of "ruling the waves".

Indeed other European countries still have places associated with them around the world too.

lawred2 · 12-06-2019 7:20pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

You mentioned people getting shot in the back which is pretty offensive and I did`nt rise to it but that`s not the first time you`ve made offensive comments when you don`t like what`s being said-even if it`s something as innocuous as saying Scotland are sticking up for their fishing rights.

It is indeed pretty offensive. Pretty damn factual too Rob.

At least you could try to be the same.

Less of the pity act.

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 7:21pm

recedite wrote: »

You've been saying this for a while now.
Any actual evidence of it?

Her language. Much much toned down from Hyslop's 'force' and 'deploying vessels to board Irish boats'

Sturgeon wrote:

“We want to see an amicable and negotiated settlement to this issue around fishing in Rockall, and we’ve been raising issues over the past couple of years with the Irish Government about what we consider illegal fishing in the 12-mile zone around Rockall.

“Those discussions haven’t so far led to an agreement,” she said arguing that they had therefore acted “in line with our obligations to uphold international law” but “want to reach an negotiated settlement.”

odyssey06 · 12-06-2019 7:23pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Indeed other European countries still have places associated with them around the world too.

Don't remember reading much about this here at the time... general strikes across the French Caribbean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_French_Caribbean_general_strikes

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:24pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What Rob? What are you inventing now?

This was always our position and it remains our position, the EU's position and the UN's.

We will continue to fish while you guys summon up the courage to break international law. And that ain't gonna happen is it. (The debacle around the GFA shows that) cue Sturgeon continuing to back down.

As I`ve said I`d prefer Ireland and Britain to fish around that area but if push comes to shove Ireland may have bitten off more than they can chew with Scotland-I doubt the Scots will tolerate the pompous pontificating which usually ensues when Ireland can`t get it`s own way.

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:25pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Her language. Much much toned down from Hyslop's 'force' and 'deploying vessels to board Irish boats'

HER LANGUAGE??That`s comical even by your standards!:pac::pac:

recedite · 12-06-2019 7:26pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Indeed other European countries still have places associated with them around the world too.

Very true, like Ceuta - a useless outpost of the EU in Africa.
Or should I say, the Achilles Heel of the EU, in Africa.

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 7:28pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland may have bitten off more than they can chew with Scotland

What does this mean?

If the Scots were serious (which they aren't) then Sturgeon would be ramping up the rethoric, not dampening it down.

Study the lead up to Maggie's jape in the South Atlantic.

The SNP can now go off and boast to Scottish fishermen (hellbent on destroying their industry altogether by Brexiting) that the SNP stood up to Ireland and the EU fishery policy etc etc.

You would want to be very politically naive to see anything else here.

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:29pm

lawred2 wrote: »

It is indeed pretty offensive. Pretty damn factual too Rob.

At least you could try to be the same.

Less of the pity act.

No pity act taking offence at your thoughtlessness about hillsborough.

janfebmar · 12-06-2019 7:30pm

"The lads could always set a few car or van bombs off in Scotland, that would soon bring them to the table.

Not.

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What does this mean?

If the Scots were serious (which they aren't) then Sturgeon would be ramping up the rethoric, not dampening it down.

Study the lead up to Maggie's jape in the South Atlantic.

The SNP can now go off and boast to Scottish fishermen (hellbent on destroying their industry altogether by Brexiting) that the SNP stood up to Ireland and the EU fishery policy etc etc.

You would want to be very politically naive to see anything else here.

Yes and the Scots will be clamouring to forge an alliance with Ireland-or is that with the Ulster Scots?;)

JP Liz V1 · 12-06-2019 7:31pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvCATwKjYSc

Let's get it to No. 1

odyssey06 · 12-06-2019 7:34pm

RTE are really letting us down, could they not send yer wan Theresa Mannion to do an overnight report from Rockall?
Would love to see how she fares in wind gusts of 33 knots.

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 7:36pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yes and the Scots will be clamouring to forge an alliance with Ireland-or is that with the Ulster Scots?;)

Never mind Ireland...do you think it would be politically expedient for the SNP to get in a tangle (they cannot win) with the EU over this?
If this goes to a court they lose, under UN rules and under Common Fisheries rules.
Or maybe they were just planning to blow Irish boats out of the water and ignore courts altogether...alá the good olde Empire days?

Take the blinkers off Rob.

Atlantic Dawn · 12-06-2019 7:36pm

https://www.viatel.com/2019/06/11/viatel-deliver-1gb-highspeed-broadband-to-rockall/

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 7:38pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

https://www.viatel.com/2019/06/11/viatel-deliver-1gb-highspeed-broadband-to-rockall/

Be handy for random SAS loons who slip off the thing to call for rescue.

lawred2 · 12-06-2019 7:39pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

No pity act taking offence at your thoughtlessness about hillsborough.

What are you on about now?

odyssey06 · 12-06-2019 7:39pm

So below is Fastnet rock, complete with lighthouse.

If you put a lighthouse on Rockall, with a permanent staff, would that meet the requirements for "habitation" I wonder?

odyssey06 · 12-06-2019 7:41pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

https://www.viatel.com/2019/06/11/viatel-deliver-1gb-highspeed-broadband-to-rockall/

So that's where the 3 billion is going... it's part of a secret project to claim Rockall!
I knew we couldn't be spending 3 billion on Netflix for Leitrim.
Rockall is far more important.

its_steve116 · 12-06-2019 7:41pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

https://www.viatel.com/2019/06/11/viatel-deliver-1gb-highspeed-broadband-to-rockall/

Interesting

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never mind Ireland...do you think it would be politically expedient for the SNP to get in a tangle (they cannot win) with the EU over this?
If this goes to a court they lose, under UN rules and under Common Fisheries rules.
Or maybe they were just planning to blow Irish boats out of the water and ignore courts altogether...alá the good olde Empire days?

Take the blinkers off Rob.

Which bit of the common fisheries rules was it when the french chased British and Irish fishing boats away in international waters over scallop fishing?What exactly do you think they will do?:rolleyes:

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:45pm

janfebmar wrote: »

"The lads could always set a few car or van bombs off in Scotland, that would soon bring them to the table.

Not.

It`s like poking a stick into a cave full of Scottish wildcats.:D

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 7:46pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Which bit of the common fisheries rules was it when the french chased British and Irish fishing boats away in international waters over scallop fishing?What exactly do you think they will do?:rolleyes:

I have no doubt at all that they might ignore any legal rulings they don't like.

But you first as you said it...what exactly is Scotland going to do after the first arrest and boats keep coming...open fire?

:D:D

mikeym · 12-06-2019 7:50pm

Its only a rock FFS

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:53pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no doubt at all that they might ignore any legal rulings they don't like.

But you first as you said it...what exactly is Scotland going to do after the first arrest and boats keep coming...open fire? :D:D

Arr well francie,unlike you I don`t have a crystal ball to see into the future but as I`ve said I hope it can be amicably resolved and they both fish there peacefully.

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 7:55pm

And being of Ulster descent francie why would I want to argue with you-my Ulster brethren?;)

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 7:56pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Arr well francie,unlike you I don`t have a crystal ball to see into the future but as I`ve said I hope it can be amicably resolved and they both fish there peacefully.

You said, 'Ireland may have bitten off more than it can chew with Scotland' don't be coy, you have some inkling of you can say that of the future. What have you seen Rob?

odyssey06 · 12-06-2019 7:59pm

mikeym wrote: »

Its only a rock FFS

Good point. We need to see some Rockall fish and Rockall prawns on the menu, so we know what we're fighting for.

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 8:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said, 'Ireland may have bitten off more than it can chew with Scotland' don't be coy, you have some inkling of you can say that of the future. What have you seen Rob?

I see a lot of posturing and blustering then it`ll be fine between Scotland/Britain and Ireland and all parties will claim they won.:o

recedite · 12-06-2019 8:01pm

There's a bit of confusion around the "habitation" thing, so here it is.
A country can project a 200 mile economic exclusion zone (EEZ) out across the sea from its outermost inhabited coast or island. That in itself does not give exclusive fishing rights, but it gives first dibs on oil and gas wells, and gives extra weight to claims of ownership of any uninhabited islands within that zone.
On this basis, Rockall is within the UK's EEZ.

Rockall is above sea level at low tide, therefore it counts as "land".

So, because it is within their EEZ, and having landed on it and laid claim to this "land" for The Crown, as "land" it automatically generates its own 12 mile limit (as any claimed piece of land does, whether it is inhabited or not) This provides Rockall with exclusive fishing rights, regardless of whether the UK is inside the EU or outside it.
The northern waters of the UK are administered by the Scottish govt, who have 3 of their own fishing patrol vessels. But these can also call for back up from the RN whenever they need it, because Scotland is in the UK.

The Irish position is to say sure its only a rock, nobody owns it, lets all share the fish.

Meanwhile, Brussels is staying very, very quiet.

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 8:04pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I see a lot of posturing and blustering then it`ll be fine between Scotland/Britain and Ireland and all parties will claim they won.:o

So they haven't bitten off more than it can chew.

Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 8:09pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So they haven't bitten off more than it can chew.

Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:

Like I said,I can`t predict the future-that`s the best I can guess at-what do you see happening?

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 8:12pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Like I said,I can`t predict the future-

You did Rob, when you theorised that Ireland might have bitten off more than it can chew. :rolleyes:

that`s the best I can guess at-what do you see happening?

What you just did..Scotland will continue rowing back...excuse the pun etc.

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 8:19pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You did Rob, when you theorised that Ireland might have bitten off more than it can chew. :rolleyes:

What you just did..Scotland will continue rowing back...excuse the pun etc.

Theorise means to speculate which is a guess in my book.I can`t say what the Scots will do-they do their own thing and have their own laws don`t you know!;)
I understand Westminster has urged caution but it`s their call I believe.

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 8:23pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Theorise means to speculate which is a guess in my book.

Like the 'crystal ball' you claim is exclusive to me. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

steddyeddy · 12-06-2019 8:42pm

It doesn't look like this is going down well in Scotland at all. Some people are using it to attack Nicola for starting a fight over a rock. Also Irish fishermen are saying there's no animosity from Scottish fishermen towards them.

RobMc59 · 12-06-2019 8:44pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like the 'crystal ball' you claim is exclusive to me. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

No,you genuinely believe you can see into the future,especially over a UI.:eek:

FrancieBrady · 12-06-2019 8:52pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

No,you genuinely believe you can see into the future,especially over a UI.:eek:

Like you, I have an 'opinion' on what might happen. Unlike you I don't deny it when asked to explain.

A Dub in Glasgo · 12-06-2019 9:30pm

recedite wrote: »

There's a bit of confusion around the "habitation" thing, so here it is.
A country can project a 200 mile economic exclusion zone (EEZ) out across the sea from its outermost inhabited coast or island. That in itself does not give exclusive fishing rights, but it gives first dibs on oil and gas wells, and gives extra weight to claims of ownership of any uninhabited islands within that zone.
On this basis, Rockall is within the UK's EEZ.

Rockall is above sea level at low tide, therefore it counts as "land".

So, because it is within their EEZ, and having landed on it and laid claim to this "land" for The Crown, as "land" it automatically generates its own 12 mile limit (as any claimed piece of land does, whether it is inhabited or not) This provides Rockall with exclusive fishing rights, regardless of whether the UK is inside the EU or outside it.
The northern waters of the UK are administered by the Scottish govt, who have 3 of their own fishing patrol vessels. But these can also call for back up from the RN whenever they need it, because Scotland is in the UK.

The Irish position is to say sure its only a rock, nobody owns it, lets all share the fish.

Meanwhile, Brussels is staying very, very quiet.

The Irish, Danish and Icelandic position is that they do not recognise the validity of the UK claim of Rockall soverignty therefore the 12nm exclusion zone around Rockall is not valid. The UN CLCS has not adjudicated on it therefore there appears to be nothing illegal (in EU terms) in fishing in the EEZ as per the CFP

recedite · 12-06-2019 9:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The Scots really don't realise the importance of songs in a war. Songs stir a people in their deepest soul.

Maybe not, but they always appreciated the importance of being sober before the start of a battle.
As somebody once said about the Irish and their ballads "all their songs are sad, but all their wars were merry".

odyssey06 · 12-06-2019 9:48pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

It doesn't look like this is going down well in Scotland at all. Some people are using it to attack Nicola for starting a fight over a rock. Also Irish fishermen are saying there's no animosity from Scottish fishermen towards them.

That's not the kinda talk that will get us a war.

I'll get the ball rolling... If Scotland played Rockall at football, they'd still lose.

recedite · 12-06-2019 9:48pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Irish, Danish and Icelandic position is that they do not recognise the validity of the UK claim of Rockall soverignty therefore the 12nm exclusion zone around Rockall is not valid. The UN CLCS has not adjudicated on it therefore there appears to be nothing illegal (in EU terms) in fishing in the EEZ as per the CFP

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they.
Sovereignty is a difficult thing to prove. I think, at the end of the day, if you control a piece of land, you have proved your sovereignty over it.
It stands to reason then, that the Scots/Brits will need to exert more control over the area, if there is some doubt about its sovereignty.

Rock on, Rockall! (it's back)

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