non-Irish .. can they vote for Irish President?

Bob24 wrote: »

I would say the problem if some people can’t answer thoses is more a failure of the education system. Which is an issue on its own and to be addressed separately.

It doesn’t preclude setting a minimum knowledge standard for people who want to become citizens. If the argument not to do so is that you can’t expect from applicants things which are not expected from existing citizens, you could similarly say resfusing citizenship due to criminal convictions doesn’t make sense either because that standard (not having convictions) is not expected for all existing citizens - which hopefully everyone agrees would be a bad idea.

I think I'm looking for a reasoned case as to why something like being able to identify Eamon de Valera as the first Taoiseach should be a relevant qualification for naturalisation. Some candidates might plausibly confuse the office of Taoiseach with that of President of the Executive Council and offer W.T. Cosgrave as an answer; others might offer Michael Collins, the first Chairman of the Provisional Government,and some could even offer Cathal Brugha, the first Príomh Aire of Dáil Éireann, which was effectively the post of chief executive of the republican ministry during the War of Independence. Are those who give these answers really unfit to be citizens?

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think I'm looking for a reasoned case as to why something like being able to identify Eamon de Valera as the first Taoiseach should be a relevant qualification for naturalisation. Some candidates might plausibly confuse the office of Taoiseach with that of President of the Executive Council and offer W.T. Cosgrave as an answer; others might offer Michael Collins, the first Chairman of the Provisional Government,and some could even offer Cathal Brugha, the first Príomh Aire of Dáil Éireann, which was effectively the post of chief executive of the republican ministry during the War of Independence. Are those who give these answers really unfit to be citizens?

Like any such evaluation test it wouldn’t be perfect (and I never said the bar should be set super high and everyone should get 100% answers right :-)). But it would confirm everyone has reached a minimum bar.

As I said it would serve multiple purposes:
- make sure the applicant understands English or Irish
- make sure they demonstrate a minimum interest and have a minimum knowledge of the country they are going to become a citizen of (if they don’t already know the basics to pass the test, spending a couple of hours preparing for it would be a minimum proof of interest, not bothering a proof they are not that involved in the process)
- put them in a position whereby they have a basic understanding of the democratic process they will take part of (and again maybe some people will forget about it overtime, but that is no excuse for not aiming at empowering people with that understanding and pushing them a bit to reach that stage - as the education system should also have done for citizens who grew up in Ireland)

So to answer your question, if someone gets confused about who the first Taoiseach was, it doesn’t necessarily discard them as a citizen, but if they get most answers wrong in my view it does demonstrate they not only haven’t gained minimum knowledge naturally over time, but also haven’t shown the will to spend a couple of hours to acquire that knowlege in order to become a citizen. And this should question their level of integration in Irish society and their dedication to becoming a citizen.

Bob24 wrote: »

“which year did Ireland become an independent state from the UK?”

That could be 1919 (First Dail), 1922 (Treaty), 1948 (Republic of Ireland Act, ending the role of the British Crown) or possibly even 1979 (break with sterling)!

“what is the role of Dail Eireann?”

Too many jokes there.

“who was the first Taoiseach of Ireland?”.

Another tricky one. President of the First Dail - De Valera but he was in jail so Cathal Brugha held it provisionally, first head of government after the treaty WT Cosgrave, first one to be called Taoiseach - de Valera again (1938.)


Reminds me of the old gag that whenever Lloyd George thought he was getting close to the answer to the Irish question, the Irish changed the question!

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

last time I flew to UK from Ireland was 2014 I think and that was Knock to heathrow I think it were aer lingus and they accepted driving licence ... I dont know what the score is these days if i want to get there with no passport - maybe they still take drivers licence (some of the airlines) I dont think Ryanair do any more at all .

Driving licence is copper-bottomed for those that don't insist on passport. You can potentially even get away with other photo ID. I managed that once. Have no d/l, had messed up and had to fly in a "gap" in my passport renewal, was sweating buckets as to whether it'd be OK. Was, but Would Not Recommend.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

yes, if I get a UK passport I might try that route.

But if you get a UK passport, you could just as easily fly from here.

The point is that Belfast to Britain is a domestic flight. (Although I believe Ryanair insist on a passport even for those!)

However, if those people are not citizens, then they may not be staying

I think there are more Irish citizens living abroad than non-Irish citizens living in Ireland.

They say no taxation without representation. In my view the opposite should apply, ie no representation without taxation.

You vote in the society in which you live and if there's no democracy where you happen to live, then you don't vote.

The equivalent to asking Irish people abroad to vote for Irish candidates, when they have perhaps little idea what the realities of life and the issues on the ground within this Country that will have to live with the outcome of that vote are, is shyte hawks like Peter Casey swanning back to Ireland after 40+ years and displaying obvious ignorance and totally simple minded notions of whats going on, not to mind hypocrisy and a farcical image of himself.

And before people call me out on it, yes I don't believe anyone who came 'home to vote' in recent campaigns and who had been abroad for more than 6 months should be been able to vote, as per the rules. There must have been thousands of examples of this.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

What about economic migrants forced to move abroad who would like to return? You might be only out of the country for a couple of years and the very people and policies forced you out are still around.

Fair point. The current rules are that once you are gone 6 months, you lose the franchise, perhaps a campaign will arise to change that. I think myself it would require a change to a list system for Dáil to allow citizens abroad have a constituency.

In fact, I've always thought a list system (or at least a hybrid) would go a long way to getting us beyond the glorified County Councillors that TDs are, where their main focus should be national policy and needs and plainly they aren't. But thats another day's work.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Fair point. The current rules are that once you are gone 6 months, you lose the franchise

18 months.

It's ridiculous that you can be resident in another EU country and not have a vote either there or here. All EU member states should give full voting rights to resident EU citizens.