Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

non-Irish .. can they vote for Irish President?

Options
245

Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    No, you're not Irish, and never will be.
    AnneFrank wrote: »
    you can also leave ?

    Mod note:

    Please read the charter re standards of post and being civil towards other posters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Considering the costs of formally becoming an Irish citizen, these costs being zero afaik for successful refugee applications. Will we see a rise in applications from the UK as Brefugees?

    Are you sure about that? Being granted asylum is not the same as citizenship


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    tobsey wrote: »
    Are you sure about that? Being granted asylum is not the same as citizenship
    Refugee status is a path to residence, not citizenship. However if you do acquire residence as a refugee then, after having resided in Ireland for the necessary period and satisfied the same conditions as apply to anyone else, you can apply to be naturalised as an Irish citizens on the same basis as anyone else can.

    The standard application fee of €175 is payable. But if your application is successful, the certification fee (€950 for an adult, €200 for a child) is waived for recognised refugees and stateless persons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    When you say "two Irish parents", so long as at least one of them was born in Ireland (NI or the Republic, it doesn't matter) then you are or are entitled to be an Irish citizen and you could tick the "Citizen of Ireland" box.

    You are also a British citizen but that's not relevant in this context, since being an Irish citizen confers the more extensive voting rights, so fo the purpose of entering you in the electoral register that's all they are interested in.

    So if I were to tick British citizen on that form even though I'm also an Irish citizen that would essentially block my rights to vote in a referendum or a presidential election and thus I'm just handicapping myself?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,844 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Mellor wrote: »
    Why wouldn't you pay taxes? Is there some co-relation between voting and paying taxes.
    No, and there shouldn't be any.
    But still, I find it unfair that I pay taxes but I don't have a say in what goes with those taxes. I think it will be a fairer system to allow all permanent resident to vote in all elections, regardless of their citizenship (or indeed, tax) status.
    Also, I normally think that citizens living abroad should be allowed to vote, but Ireland is a more particular situation, with such a large number of Irish citizens or eligible for Irish citizenship.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Well, I do live there, I'm only overseas for a short while.

    Yeah, that kind of situation should be accommodated with a postal vote.

    I'd like to see something like this:

    If you move abroad, you could continue to vote in your constituency for say a maximum of 10 years.

    If you're gone for more than 10 years - perhaps verifiable by the fact you have no postal address here and haven't physically voted, then you could be moved to a Seanad Irish Abroad panel with maybe 3 senators, similar to the NUI or Trinity panel setup.

    I don't really agree with the idea of long-term overseas residents voting in national elections, but I do think they should be represented in the system elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,171 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I arrived in Ireland in 1973 (45 years ago) with an Irish husband. Someone came to the door and asked were we registered to vote and I said no. Right so, he said, I'll put you on the register. And that was it. I have voted in every referendum and election since. It was only fairly recently I realised my voting rights were actually more limited, I had never even thought about it. In spite of moving house and re-registering three more times, the subject of my nationality (UK) never came up; the last move was 30 years ago.

    Now I have moved again and this time there is a more complex form to fill in that asks questions, so I won't be voting in any more referenda. Bit of an end of an era feel to it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,185 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    When you say "two Irish parents", so long as at least one of them was born in Ireland (NI or the Republic, it doesn't matter) then you are or are entitled to be an Irish citizen and you could tick the "Citizen of Ireland" box.

    You are also a British citizen but that's not relevant in this context, since being an Irish citizen confers the more extensive voting rights, so fo the purpose of entering you in the electoral register that's all they are interested in.

    Is applying for a passport relevant? A person born in the UK can assert Irish citizenship for electoral purposes without ever having held an Irish passport?

    I thought I heard somewhere that entitlement to Irish citizenship wasn't enough, you had to assert that right to gain it, and the way to assert your right to citizenship is to successfully apply for a passport.

    Of course (unless they want to fly Ryanair) a UK citizen doesn't need a passport to come here. So (correct me if I'm wrong) you could be born in the UK of Irish descent, never apply for a passport UK never mind Ireland, come here, live here, and have an entitlement to Irish citizenship since your birth, but you don't actually become an Irish citizen until you apply for and receive an Irish passport.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is applying for a passport relevant? A person born in the UK can assert Irish citizenship for electoral purposes without ever having held an Irish passport?

    I thought I heard somewhere that entitlement to Irish citizenship wasn't enough, you had to assert that right to gain it, and the way to assert your right to citizenship is to successfully apply for a passport.

    Of course (unless they want to fly Ryanair) a UK citizen doesn't need a passport to come here. So (correct me if I'm wrong) you could be born in the UK of Irish descent, never apply for a passport UK never mind Ireland, come here, live here, and have an entitlement to Irish citizenship since your birth, but you don't actually become an Irish citizen until you apply for and receive an Irish passport.

    I was born in the UK, to two Irish parents. Moved here aged around 11 , didn't have any passport of any type until I was 24, but am voting here since I was 18.
    I have never been asked for proof of citizenship. But I am an Irish citizen. As per my passport now, and my driving licence etc......


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    so - I think I have this straight (i did have sort of an inkling before) if I was stateless or a asylum I could become Irish for 175eur application fee - but because I am not either one of those humans I have to pay the extra 950euro for citizenship. - so a stateless or asylum seeker can get irish nationalisation gets it a hell of a lot cheaper and has no ties whatsoever to Ireland.

    I come from the country next to Ireland, my wife is Dual nationality, born in UK to 2 irish parents from galway , Have 2 Irish children born in Ireland , have lived here for 27 years and contributed to Ireland's economy , came over here legally, and yet I have to pay full whack over a thousand euro to become an Irish citizen ... thats what I find hard to get my head around it as a fair system


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,283 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    so - I think I have this straight (i did have sort of an inkling before) if I was stateless or a asylum I could become Irish for 175eur application fee - but because I am not either one of those humans I have to pay the extra 950euro for citizenship. - so a stateless or asylum seeker can get irish nationalisation gets it a hell of a lot cheaper and has no ties whatsoever to Ireland.

    I come from the country next to Ireland, my wife is Dual nationality, born in UK to 2 irish parents from galway , Have 2 Irish children born in Ireland , have lived here for 27 years and contributed to Ireland's economy , came over here legally, and yet I have to pay full whack over a thousand euro to become an Irish citizen ... thats what I find hard to get my head around it as a fair system

    Asylum seekers generally spend a couple of years in direct provision centres with no opportunity to work and earn money other than a €21.60 weekly allowance, and have presumably come from backgrounds where they may have had to leave their own countries with little more than the clothes on their backs. The rules were changed in February following a Supreme Court case, but to work they still need to shell out a minimum of €500 for a work permit and find a job paying a minimum of €30k where an employer can demonstrate that they couldn't find a suitable Irish or EU citizens to do the job. In other words, these people have no money, and no real opportunity to earn any until they become Irish citizens following a successful asylum application, so expecting them to be able to pay for their citizenship is a bit unrealistic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    So if I were to tick British citizen on that form even though I'm also an Irish citizen that would essentially block my rights to vote in a referendum or a presidential election and thus I'm just handicapping myself?
    Yes. If you have more than one of the statuses on the form, you should tick the status that gives you the most extensive voting rights. Which in your case is, as you'd expect, "Irish citizen".


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Is applying for a passport relevant? A person born in the UK can assert Irish citizenship for electoral purposes without ever having held an Irish passport?
    Yes, if he's an Irish citizen. You may need to hold a passport to travel, but you certainly don't need one to vote.
    I thought I heard somewhere that entitlement to Irish citizenship wasn't enough, you had to assert that right to gain it, and the way to assert your right to citizenship is to successfully apply for a passport.
    That's one way, and if you live outside Ireland (and so can't vote) it's probably the obvious way. (Though, of course, it's not cheap.)

    But if you are entitled to citizenship you "activate" that by doing anything that only a citizen can (properly) do. Like asserting your citizenship when you enrol to vote.
    Of course (unless they want to fly Ryanair) a UK citizen doesn't need a passport to come here. So (correct me if I'm wrong) you could be born in the UK of Irish descent, never apply for a passport UK never mind Ireland, come here, live here, and have an entitlement to Irish citizenship since your birth, but you don't actually become an Irish citizen until you apply for and receive an Irish passport.
    No. If you're entitled to citizenship you can do anything that is only open to citizens, and that converts your entitlement into actual citizenship.

    Strictly speaking, if you go down the passport route, what triggers your citizenship is not being granted the passport; it's applying for it. Passports are only granted to people who are already citizens.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    so - I think I have this straight (i did have sort of an inkling before) if I was stateless or a asylum I could become Irish for 175eur application fee - but because I am not either one of those humans I have to pay the extra 950euro for citizenship. - so a stateless or asylum seeker can get irish nationalisation gets it a hell of a lot cheaper and has no ties whatsoever to Ireland.
    What do you mean, "no ties whatsoever to Ireland"? The residence, etc conditions that he has to satisfy in order to be naturalised are exactly the same as the conditions that apply to you. The only concession he gets is on the fees.
    I come from the country next to Ireland, my wife is Dual nationality, born in UK to 2 irish parents from galway , Have 2 Irish children born in Ireland , have lived here for 27 years and contributed to Ireland's economy , came over here legally, and yet I have to pay full whack over a thousand euro to become an Irish citizen ... thats what I find hard to get my head around it as a fair system
    Is it fair that refugees and stateless people get a fee concession? I think I can live with the injustice, somehow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    I know a British citizen who always gets voting cards for referendums - and presumably presidential elections. How could I report this? ...Am I right in thinking he would not be in any danger of getting in trouble were he to be reported?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I know a British citizen who always gets voting cards for referendums - and presumably presidential elections. How could I report this? ...Am I right in thinking he would not be in any danger of getting in trouble were he to be reported?
    He would not. It's an error in the register. If it gets reported, it gets corrected. They generally don't embark on a witch-hunt to find out how the error arose - did he tick the wrong box or was there a data entry error by a council official? They just correct the register.

    The register is updated each year. A draft register is published on 1 November and if you think there's a mistake in it you can object, and they'll look into it and (hopefully) correct it before the draft takes effect as the official register which happens, I think, the following April.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Cordell wrote: »
    But still, I find it unfair that I pay taxes but I don't have a say in what goes with those taxes. I think it will be a fairer system to allow all permanent resident to vote in all elections, regardless of their citizenship (or indeed, tax) status
    Unfortunate, maybe. But you have to draw the line somewhere. Permanent residents aren't the only people who pay tax. Citizenship isn't an unreasonable place to draw that line imo.
    If somebody feels strongly about it there are routes they can take.
    I know a British citizen who always gets voting cards for referendums - and presumably presidential elections. How could I report this? ...Am I right in thinking he would not be in any danger of getting in trouble were he to be reported?
    Id it possible that they are an Irish citizen as well as british?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Mellor wrote: »
    Unfortunate, maybe. But you have to draw the line somewhere. Permanent residents aren't the only people who pay tax. Citizenship isn't an unreasonable place to draw that line imo.
    If somebody feels strongly about it there are routes they can take.


    Id it possible that they are an Irish citizen as well as british?
    I know that they are not. I have heard it is deliberate on the part of the local registrar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I know that they are not.

    How could you know a strangers personal details like that.
    It's quite possible that there's a mistake on the register. There a lot. A simple clerical error, or misplaces check mark is all it takes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Mellor wrote: »
    How could you know a strangers personal details like that.
    It's quite possible that there's a mistake on the register. There a lot. A simple clerical error, or misplaces check mark is all it takes.
    Never said they were a stranger. The idea of getting Irish citizenship disgusts him.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    well i personally think (and i suppose maybe many might not agree with me) that being resident in a country for a certain amount of time , having a dual nationality Irish/UK wife and 2 Irish children I should be able to automatically be able to apply for Irish Citizenship .. and if a fee just a nominal one

    My view is that if someone doesn’t think being an Irish citizen and being able to vote for *the rest of their life* is worth saving a bit over 1000 euros, then that person probably doesn’t feel close enough to Ireland for it to make sense to let them become a citizen and vote.

    As said before the amount is not nothing and I understand for some people it is not trivial to gather the money, but it is far from crazy either and is achievable for pretty much anyone over a period of time (keeping in mind what we are talking about is a very big commitment and a once-off thing with lifetime impact).

    I speak as a naturalised citizen myself, and I personally know a couple people who struggled on temp jobs and on minimal wage for a while and still saved money for citizenship applications.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Never said they were a stranger. The idea of getting Irish citizenship disgusts him.

    Fair enough. I assumed due to talking about reporting this person that it wasn't a friend or anything.
    I suppose an annoying co-worker could fall between stranger and friend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    so - I think I have this straight (i did have sort of an inkling before) if I was stateless or a asylum I could become Irish for 175eur application fee - but because I am not either one of those humans I have to pay the extra 950euro for citizenship. - so a stateless or asylum seeker can get irish nationalisation gets it a hell of a lot cheaper and has no ties whatsoever to Ireland.

    I come from the country next to Ireland, my wife is Dual nationality, born in UK to 2 irish parents from galway , Have 2 Irish children born in Ireland , have lived here for 27 years and contributed to Ireland's economy , came over here legally, and yet I have to pay full whack over a thousand euro to become an Irish citizen ... thats what I find hard to get my head around it as a fair system

    Hindsight's a great thing - should have got citizenship back before circa 2007. I hear it was 127 Euro (converted from the original 100 Punts) and a trip to the county town court to swear allegiance to the state before a judge. You'd be seen between the court cases though....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    It's actually a fairly slow process. A relative of mine from the UK who has been living here for the requisite number of years, is of very good character, has held a good job all that time, has paid loads of tax, participates in all sorts of things and had made her life here is waiting over a year now.

    When you apply for citizenship here you basically send off the documents and you hear nothing back. They don't really take phone calls and they provide very little or no information about what is happening to the application.

    I know she contacted them and got a vague letter outlining that it had moved to the second stage and that these processes can take time and please do not contact them again as they would rather dedicate time to processing the application than respisbinb to queries.

    It's amazing though we all hear the horror stories about US immigration and The British Home Office but when viewed from the outside the Irish systems are every bit as cold. The absolute lack of transparency or even progress updates is very annoying. I appreciate in her case it doesn't really make much difference as she's here as a UK national and won't make any practical impact even if it were rejected. However, if you were relying on getting Irish citizenship, it would be horribly cruel and stressful to just have to send documents into this conpotrley opaque system that doesn't respond to questions or provide any kind of status updates. I mean when you consider that you can track your passport application, even though that's a far less complicated issue, it seems horrible that you're more or less told to "submit documents, ask no questions, wait for an undetermined lenght of time and, if we feel like it, we will contact you."

    It's anything but "friendly" and I can see why people don't bother to engage with it if they're a UK or EU national as it's probably more hassle than it's worth, other than that you're basically disenfranchised despite being a de facto citizen by making your life here.

    I fully appreciate that they need to check things but they could at least have some kind of web portal like the passport office has to follow up on status or application.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Mellor wrote: »
    Fair enough. I assumed due to talking about reporting this person that it wasn't a friend or anything.
    I suppose an annoying co-worker could fall between stranger and friend.
    My opinion of/relationship to him isn't really relevant. The fact I think his ideas about society are bonkers is irrelevant too. He's not allowed to vote. As I checked, he won't experience any negative consequences from being prevented from doing so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    It's actually a fairly slow process.

    I work in an office where a large number of people have applied for Irish citizenship. Some from the UK got granted it within 6 months, others from the UK after 9 and but some from Eastern European countries have waited over 12 months. I'd hazard a guess that performing back ground checks and confirming details with the UK is quicker and easier than other countries.
    EdgeCase wrote: »
    When you apply for citizenship here you basically send off the documents and you hear nothing back. They don't really take phone calls and they provide very little or no information about what is happening to the application.

    At one point during the process, they had one guy's passport over 6 weeks. He could not contract them as "Phonelines are open every Tuesday and Thursday from 10:00 to 12:30, excluding public holidays". FFS. In the end he managed to get his passport back within 24 hrs after sending in an email complaint to the Dept. of Justice....


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,119 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    When you apply for citizenship here you basically send off the documents and you hear nothing back. They don't really take phone calls and they provide very little or no information about what is happening to the application.

    If they took phone calls about anyones application, at any time. It would collectively slow down all applications.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He would not. It's an error in the register. If it gets reported, it gets corrected. They generally don't embark on a witch-hunt to find out how the error arose - did he tick the wrong box or was there a data entry error by a council official? They just correct the register.

    The register is updated each year. A draft register is published on 1 November and if you think there's a mistake in it you can object, and they'll look into it and (hopefully) correct it before the draft takes effect as the official register which happens, I think, the following April.

    ah well so he can still vote this time for a president for 7 years and vote in the blasphemy thing still then


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Bob24 wrote: »
    My view is that if someone doesn’t think being an Irish citizen and being able to vote for *the rest of their life* is worth saving a bit over 1000 euros, then that person probably doesn’t feel close enough to Ireland for it to make sense to let them become a citizen and vote.

    As said before the amount is not nothing and I understand for some people it is not trivial to gather the money, but it is far from crazy either and is achievable for pretty much anyone over a period of time (keeping in mind what we are talking about is a very big commitment and a once-off thing with lifetime impact).

    I speak as a naturalised citizen myself, and I personally know a couple people who struggled on temp jobs and on minimal wage for a while and still saved money for citizenship applications.

    no, I refute that ideology about that if I felt strongly about being an Irish citizen i would stump up / save up the required money - there are many more things I could spend that kind of money on .. a better , newer car for a start which a car is a necessity in the sticks with public transport the way it is .. so i would have to prioratize seeing as I dont have a thousand euro odd at my disposal just like that.

    Couldnt be further from the truth - i may have only been 27 years in this fair land but i feel more for Ireland than i do now than for my own country of birth now a lot of places in the UK are Shítholes now and i am so glad my kids were born and reared in ireland and not the UK - and this latest thing of Brexit is angered me now, i think they should have remained and a lot of the result I am pretty sure was won on the basis that a lot of people in the UK are racist (plus the people were lied to , and a lot did not have a level of expertise in the matter to vote on something as big as brexit)

    .. I have a father still living in the UK , he is quite patriotic and might feel a bit upset that I would want to become an irish citizen may , I dont know maybe he wouldnt and say "well you have been living there long enough so fill yer boots" we have never discussed it I dont think ever. I have a brother and sister still living in the UK and they wouldnt care less at all I know that much if i changed nationailty from British to Ireland.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    [HTML][/HTML]
    MBSnr wrote: »
    Hindsight's a great thing - should have got citizenship back before circa 2007. I hear it was 127 Euro (converted from the original 100 Punts) and a trip to the county town court to swear allegiance to the state before a judge. You'd be seen between the court cases though....

    I did not know that. - shame, wish i did . thats more like it


Advertisement