Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

non-Irish .. can they vote for Irish President?

Options
135

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,240 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    ah well so he can still vote this time for a president for 7 years and vote in the blasphemy thing still then
    Yes, and this is deliberate. The system is designed to avoid unseemly arguments at the polling station about whether someone is entitled to vote or not, demands for production of evidence that someone might not be able to produce if demanded without notice, etc. If you're on the register, you can vote. Arguments about your entitlement should happen when the register is being compiled, not when the votes are being cast.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    no, I refute that ideology about that if I felt strongly about being an Irish citizen i would stump up / save up the required money - there are many more things I could spend that kind of money on .. a better , newer car for a start which a car is a necessity in the sticks with public transport the way it is .. so i would have to prioratize seeing as I dont have a thousand euro odd at my disposal just like that.

    Couldnt be further from the truth - i may have only been 27 years in this fair land but i feel more for Ireland than i do now than for my own country of birth now a lot of places in the UK are Shítholes now and i am so glad my kids were born and reared in ireland and not the UK - and this latest thing of Brexit is angered me now, i think they should have remained and a lot of the result I am pretty sure was won on the basis that a lot of people in the UK are racist (plus the people were lied to , and a lot did not have a level of expertise in the matter to vote on something as big as brexit)

    It is not ideology, it is simple human psychology an pragmatism: if someone strongly wants something and it is is within their reach they will make it happen. And thus if they don’t make it happen they probably don’t feel so strongly about it. This is why to me there would be a clear contradiction in someome both saying that their feel strongly about becoming an Irish citizenship and at the same time saying saving 1000 euros for it overtime is so low in the priority list that it’s not even being considered.

    And having said that if someone has settled in Ireland and wants to legally remain in the long term without obtaining citizenship that is of course no problem. But at the same time (and while citizenship should be seen as a lot more of a commitment than a 950 euros bank draft), if the person doesn’t feel the cost/process is worth their while it is more than fair for Ireland to treat them as a guest - meaning treating them well but not necessarily with all the entitlements a citizen has.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,240 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    ... .. I have a father still living in the UK , he is quite patriotic and might feel a bit upset that I would want to become an irish citizen may , I dont know maybe he wouldnt and say "well you have been living there long enough so fill yer boots" we have never discussed it I dont think ever. I have a brother and sister still living in the UK and they wouldnt care less at all I know that much if i changed nationailty from British to Ireland.
    It wouldn't be a change of nationality. Acquiring Irish citizenship does not involve any renunciation of British citizenship. You could of course renounce your British citizenship if you wished, but that would be an entirely separate decision. The only effect of being naturalised as an Irish citizen is that you would become an Irish citizen as well as a British citizen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Jakey Rolling


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He would not. It's an error in the register. If it gets reported, it gets corrected. They generally don't embark on a witch-hunt to find out how the error arose - did he tick the wrong box or was there a data entry error by a council official? They just correct the register.

    The register is updated each year. A draft register is published on 1 November and if you think there's a mistake in it you can object, and they'll look into it and (hopefully) correct it before the draft takes effect as the official register which happens, I think, the following April.

    I was in that situation - registered to vote when we arrived from UK in 2010, and have been voting in referendums etc since then. Presumably a clerical error, as I wouldn't have stated that I was an Irish citizen at the time.

    Anyhow, I got called up for jury duty earlier this year, which I had to decline as you must be a citizen. The court clerk queried this as I was on voting register as a citizen. So I was obliged to ask for the register to be changed.

    Had also been contemplating my citizenship application for a few years, but put off that it's €175 to have application processed and approved, but €950 to effectively rubber stamp it by issuing a cert. If it ever becomes an issue I'll have to bite the bullet, worst thing after March might be having to stand in the non-EU queue at the airport while my wife and kids take the express EU route!

    100412.2526@compuserve.com



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    According to the 2016 census there are 103,115 Brits living in Ireland. What really surprises me is that *only* 529 took Irish citizenship in 2017 and probably not a dissimilar amount this year all told.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/five-fold-increase-in-uk-nationals-becoming-irish-citizens-1.3623257


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 466 ✭✭c6ysaphjvqw41k


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    MBSnr wrote: »
    According to the 2016 census there are 103,115 Brits living in Ireland. What really surprises me is that *only* 529 took Irish citizenship in 2017 and probably not a dissimilar amount this year all told.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/five-fold-increase-in-uk-nationals-becoming-irish-citizens-1.3623257

    You mean you expected more due to Brexit? If yes i think most of those people are still in the pipeline. Even for a straight forward application it probably takes close to a year between the time someone decides to apply and the day the become a citizen (the actual processing time for a quick application can be 6 months, but before that the applicant will take some time to find out how the process works and prepare the paperwork, and after the application is accepted it can take some time to actually attend a citizenship ceremony and become a citizen).

    Since the brexit referendum was in mid 2016 and article 50 was only invoked in 2017 and leaves another guaranteed 2 years with the status quo, I’d say the bulk of brits here only started worry in the beginning of 2017 and to apply in mid 2017, and thus are to become citizens in 2018 or 2019.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Bob24 wrote: »
    You mean you expected more due to Brexit? If yes i think most of those people are still in the pipeline. Even for a straight forward application it probably takes close to a year between the time someone decides to apply and the day the become a citizen (the actual processing time for a quick application can be 6 months, but before that the applicant will take some time to find out how the process works and prepare the paperwork, and after the application is accepted it can take some time to actually attend a citizenship ceremony and become a citizen).

    Since the brexit referendum was in mid 2016 and article 50 was only invoked in 2017 and leaves another guaranteed 2 years with the status quo, I’d say the bulk of brits here only started worry in the beginning of 2017 and to apply in mid 2017, and thus are to become citizens in 2018 or 2019.

    True. Although I did expect a few more somehow. Looking at it, there were 6850 granted citizenship in 2017 - that's 26 per working day. I'd wonder on their ability to process more, if it comes to a hard Brexit. Those on the fence, get in now before the price increases... :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It wouldn't be a change of nationality. Acquiring Irish citizenship does not involve any renunciation of British citizenship. You could of course renounce your British citizenship if you wished, but that would be an entirely separate decision. The only effect of being naturalised as an Irish citizen is that you would become an Irish citizen as well as a British citizen.

    ah right - dual nationality then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    MBSnr wrote: »
    According to the 2016 census there are 103,115 Brits living in Ireland. What really surprises me is that *only* 529 took Irish citizenship in 2017 and probably not a dissimilar amount this year all told.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/five-fold-increase-in-uk-nationals-becoming-irish-citizens-1.3623257

    might be cost issue putting a lot off - in many cases


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    ah right - dual nationality then?

    Yeah the UK and Ireland both allow dual citizenship so becoming Irish doesn’t mean renouncing British citizenship.

    Some counties don’t allow it though, for exemple a Chinese or Indian National becoming Irish would have to give up their original citizenship (although to my knowledge India grants former citizens permanent right for residence and economic activity in the country).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Mellor wrote: »
    If they took phone calls about anyones application, at any time. It would collectively slow down all applications.

    They could simply have a website like be passport office where you can track the status of your application. It would solve a lot of problems for everyone concerned


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Yeah the UK and Ireland both allow dual citizenship so becoming Irish doesn’t mean renouncing British citizenship.

    Some counties don’t allow it though, for exemple a Chinese or Indian National becoming Irish would have to give up their original citizenship (although to my knowledge India grants former citizens permanent right for residence and economic activity in the country).

    Not unless the Brexiteers go completely mad, which lets face it isn’t beyond the realms of possibility given some of the stuff they’ve been ranting about!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Mellor wrote: »
    Unfortunate, maybe. But you have to draw the line somewhere. Permanent residents aren't the only people who pay tax. Citizenship isn't an unreasonable place to draw that line imo.
    Right, let's forget abut the tax, forget that I mentioned it - linking the right to vote to tax it's a dangerous route to take anyway.
    Citizenship it's a privilege granted at the state's discretion, not a right. The right to vote it's a right, not a privilege.
    But citizen or not, any resident is equally affected by the central elections and referendums results, so wouldn't it be a more reasonable place to draw the line here? I know it's unusual as most countries don't allow non-citizens to vote, but why couldn't Ireland be the first?
    I will eventually go with the process, but have you ever looked at the form and what it takes? JFC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,158 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Cordell wrote: »
    Citizenship it's a privilege granted at the state's discretion, not a right. The right to vote it's a right, not a privilege.
    That's pretty bad, almost circular logic tbh.

    Yes, the right to vote is a right. But it's only a right for those that are hold irish citizenship via another right (or privilege).
    But citizen or not, any resident is equally affected by the central elections and referendums results, so wouldn't it be a more reasonable place to draw the line here?
    Non-residents are also effected by decisions made by the state, maybe not as much as residents. But saying a say in the running of the state, as well as a obligations the state has to you is one of the only differences between citizenship and residency.
    I will eventually go with the process, but have you ever looked at the form and what it takes? JFC.
    I haven't looked at the forms in detail. But I'm a dual citizen myself. I obtained australian citizenship a few years ago. A process that cost a few thousand and a few years, a few visa and more than a few forms. Such is life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Having gone through he naturalisation process myself, it is a bit of paperwork and processing takes a while, but frankly it is not a particularly heavy process given what’s at stake.

    As someone said before they could improve communication and feedback on current status, but I don’t think they could simplify things much further. Actually I find it very relaxed that not once you have to meet a governement official in person and there is absolutely no minimum requirements in terms of basic language proficiency / understanding of the political system as part of which you will vote / basic knowledge of the history and culture of the nation your are joining.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Mellor wrote: »
    That's pretty bad, almost circular logic tbh.

    Yes, the right to vote is a right. But it's only a right for those that are hold irish citizenship via another right (or privilege).

    I can't see where is my logic circular tbh.
    My reasoning is that the right to vote should be clearly defined, and not granted at state's discretion. You can disagree with my idea (tbh I'm not even that convinced myself), but my logic, there is nothing wrong with it :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Cordell wrote: »

    My reasoning is that the right to vote should be clearly defined, and not granted at state's discretion.

    Well for citizens it is an absolute right yes. I don’t see the problem?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    MBSnr wrote: »
    According to the 2016 census there are 103,115 Brits living in Ireland. What really surprises me is that *only* 529 took Irish citizenship in 2017 and probably not a dissimilar amount this year all told.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/five-fold-increase-in-uk-nationals-becoming-irish-citizens-1.3623257

    There's no great pressure to make the switch really all rights bar Referendums/a and President vote. Brexit may well change that of course, it does expect the price of becoming an Irish national to jump!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Well for citizens it is an absolute right yes. I don’t see the problem?

    No problem really, just some room for improvement.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Cordell wrote: »
    No problem really, just some room for improvement.

    I’m not sure what improvement as the state already equally guarantees the right to vote for any citizen present in the country? There could be some changes (for exemple allowing citizens living abroad to vote), but calling them improvements is subjective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,396 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I think 1000 euro is a fair price for Irish citizenship, the UK passport is even more expensive from what I can see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    I would have to pay over a thousand for naturalization then ...and then buy an Irish passport on top of that .. - i tell you when you havent got a lot of money (I am not looking for any sympathy here) and you have no saving and you just about manage to cover the bills when they come in .. yes, that is a lot of money!


  • Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    it sounds like a child's game! - "you cannot vote in our referendum's because we cannot vote in yours ... so there! " -

    time for someone to grow up and realise that Ireland is well multi cultural with loads of people who are now well and truly settled and should be allowed to vote in referendums and the next president

    That's what the naturalization process is for. I am from Russia, I have been naturalized and I'll vote (for Michael D and for removing blasphemy reference) on Friday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    ...and then buy an Irish passport on top of that ..
    That's an entirely separate matter. If you have a valid (UK, I assume) passport you can just continue to use that. Then when you have to renew, you have a choice of which to get. Or both, of course.

    I think the Irish one would be slightly cheaper, as it'd be a domestic application, rather than an overseas one. ... though you'd have to live a long time to make your grand back in savings (if any).


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    MichaelR wrote: »
    That's what the naturalization process is for. I am from Russia, I have been naturalized and I'll vote (for Michael D and for removing blasphemy reference) on Friday.

    I will virtually vote for both because I cannot vote in referendums and choosing a president - yeah that's what I will go with - I think he has been a good president .. only thing I am opposed about is the term 7 years for a president , think 4 years is enough .... but i suppose then you need another referendum to see if people want to see the term a president shortened or kept as is...


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Andy doesn't have any passport!


  • Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    Bob24 wrote: »
    As someone said before they could improve communication and feedback on current status, but I don’t think they could simplify things much further. Actually I find it very relaxed that not once you have to meet a governement official in person and there is absolutely no minimum requirements in terms of basic language proficiency / understanding of the political system as part of which you will vote / basic knowledge of the history and culture of the nation your are joining.

    An exam was mooted when I was reaching the time for naturalization - and I was worried. Not because I don't know stuff but because I do know it and my opinions might not be in line with some particular policies. For example, I am very skeptical about the Easter Rising. Or if I am asked about Civil War, how am I supposed to know if I should say what I really believe (very Free Stater) or something else to any particular examiner? They don't wear party pins...

    I do wonder, now that I think about it, how similar issues are solved in the US Citizenship exams. What if one thinks George Washington was a slaveholding b*stard? Or that the Confederates should have been summarily hung - or, on the contrary, that they were a noble Lost Cause?

    I found a brief "sampling" of US Civics Test questions and immediately hit the issue. "What was the main concern of the United States during the Cold War?" The expected answer is "communism", but many people who know the history will sincerely believe it was unemployment - an answer present on the list and considered "wrong". Others will say it was civil rights - not present on the list.

    The issue is known to be contentious in Latvia, where many native-born Russian speakers are considered aliens but can be naturalized. The naturalization test requires them to admit to an "occupation", while many of them view the Soviet period in a different light.

    So if Ireland were to do anything like that, it might backfire in public debate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Andy doesn't have any passport!

    unfortunately is true ... i think from memory it ran out in 1998 or something , that was a UK one - then at that time Ryanair were just accepting an Irish driving licence for flying from Ireland to Luton ... then they ditched that and said you need a passport .. and then (i think it was FlyBe) were still taking Irish driving licence but flew to Birmingham so I had to do that and hire car in UK - last time I flew to UK from Ireland was 2014 I think and that was Knock to heathrow I think it were aer lingus and they accepted driving licence ... I dont know what the score is these days if i want to get there with no passport - maybe they still take drivers licence (some of the airlines) I dont think Ryanair do any more at all .


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    I will virtually vote for both because I cannot vote in referendums and choosing a president - yeah that's what I will go with - I think he has been a good president .. only thing I am opposed about is the term 7 years for a president , think 4 years is enough .... but i suppose then you need another referendum to see if people want to see the term a president shortened or kept as is...

    I think the 7 year period is fine for the same reason Michael D is the best candidate. The President of Ireland plays a particular role, not at all similar to the President of the USA or to the President of France.

    The President of Ireland is a respected "parent of the nation". He, or she as the case may be, represents the entire country, ideally at its best. A "carrier of the noble spirit" and a guardian against grave mistakes, not a political actor, though he (or she) might have been one in the past (like Eamon de Valera).

    Douglas Hyde defined the position by example. And while not everything he did in his younger years is agreeable, as President he was exemplary - and did represent the whole country, not just the Irish speakers.


Advertisement