Can we make a correlation between Jack Charlton and Joe Schmidt?

galwaylad14 · 01-03-2015 9:05pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Well another mind numbing display. But 10 wins in a row. Far better than Charlton ever achieved.

Not really a fair comparison given how much more prevalent draws are in soccer. I've no idea if Charlton ever went 10 games unbeaten but if he did this would be a more comparable acheivement

total former · 01-03-2015 9:06pm

Ugh this thread again.

And the title makes incorrect use of the word "correlation'.

bilston · 01-03-2015 9:10pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Well another mind numbing display.

Just no

Black Menorca · 01-03-2015 9:27pm

total former wrote: »

Ugh this thread again.

And the title makes incorrect use of the word "correlation'.

No one's forcing you to come in here.

Black Menorca · 01-03-2015 9:30pm

bilston wrote: »

Just no

Very impressive defensively, but no attacking flair. Kicking possession away ad nauseum.

Laying down the challenge to the opposition 'Break us down if you think you can' being the predominant message.

Heck, its getting the results, so I'm more than willing to take it. But lets call a spade a spade here.

bilston · 01-03-2015 9:36pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Very impressive defensively, but no attacking flair. Kicking possession away ad nauseum.

Laying down the challenge to the opposition 'Break us down if you think you can' being the predominant message.

Heck, its getting the results, so I'm more than willing to take it. But lets call a spade a spade here.

There was plenty of attacking rugby on show. Yes there is more to come but today was a step up from previous games.

TheCitizen · 01-03-2015 9:57pm

bilston wrote: »

In the first quarter yesterday Ireland did play expansively, however the French were up very quickly in defence (legally or otherwise) which cut down a lot of attacking options. The French tacklers also seemed very slow to move in the ruck as well which helped slow our ball down and again limited what we could do.

Last week we were limited but we had an inexperienced 10 and to be frank didn't need to do anything more than what we did do, which was wear the Italians down. But for a downpour in the last quarter we may well have broken loose and won by more than 23 points away from home with a third of our first team missing...

There is a bizarre air of negativity amongst some posters which is strange.

We just beat the French at home for the first time in 6 years. We have won 9 tests in a row to equal our record. We have created more depth than ever before. We are the defending Six Nations champions. We have key players who have been injured and are now just back from injury and are unlikely to have peaked.

We're in a good place, let's stop looking for negatives that just aren't there.

I think there's an issue with this in the Rugby game now, more than it used to be perhaps. I thought England were offside a good bit more than they were called out on today.

Maybe Ireland were too, I only ever noticed when the English were so quick on top of our back line:pac:. Whether it was legal or not, it made it very difficult to move the ball and Ireland did what was necessary with their kicking game to win despite that.

TheCitizen · 01-03-2015 10:00pm

Gits_bone wrote: »

RWC is the pinnacle. Every 4 years the world feasts its eyes on you. You want to prove yourself. 6 nations is every year and the grand slam has been done before.

Wales is going to be tough, especially with the injuries Ireland have picked up.

spiralism · 02-03-2015 1:06am

Kankan14 wrote: »

Even if you people are talking negatively about our style of play being dull drab and ultra defensive( which I dont think it is) what does it matter. As Clive Woodward says test match rugby at WC Semi Final and beyond and grand slam deciders are all about results not playing champagne rugby.

Look at the last world cup final it was if memory serves a terrible game but the victors wont be remembered for playing the ultra defensive game they did. Rugby at top test match level is all about executing your game plan and minimizing mistakes. Joe is proving a mastercraftsman our discipline has been excellent, our penalty count quiet good and only two yellows in our last 10 test matches.

Charlton lucked out with a heap of premier league quality pro's who were good at their job. Schmidt is turning players that are good into even better players with his brilliant tactical nous.

Last RWC final was a terrific game in terms of drama and tension. Same discussion as regards our matches, it was defensive and cagey but a great spectacle

02-03-2015 1:18am

Black Menorca wrote: »

Very impressive defensively, but no attacking flair. Kicking possession away ad nauseum.

Laying down the challenge to the opposition 'Break us down if you think you can' being the predominant message.

Heck, its getting the results, so I'm more than willing to take it. But lets call a spade a spade here.

England kicked just as much as Ireland. There were plenty of half breaks by both teams that both teams defensively shut down. You're entitled to your opinion and all that, but my opinion is that your opinion is nonsense.

thebaz · 02-03-2015 1:46am

Black Menorca wrote: »

Well another mind numbing display. But 10 wins in a row. Far better than Charlton ever achieved.

the most stupid thread I've read on boards gets re-opened - Jaysus - can we not enjoy a 10 in a row victory , without re-hashing rubbish about a different game, a dour football coach and the best coach in world rugby - ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

duckysauce · 02-03-2015 2:16am

Black Menorca wrote: »

Well another mind numbing display. But 10 wins in a row. Far better than Charlton ever achieved.

up the gicker -- you know your rugby :eek::eek:

Gits_bone · 02-03-2015 9:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

England kicked just as much as Ireland. There were plenty of half breaks by both teams that both teams defensively shut down. You're entitled to your opinion and all that, but my opinion is that your opinion is nonsense.

Murray and Henshaw broke that both led nowhere near to a try scoring opportunity. Box kicking it every 2 mins. Very much the rugby version of long ball. England knocked it on so many times, good job their handling wasn't the best.

sydthebeat · 02-03-2015 11:16am

To gits bone and black menorca

Lads, give it up, you really haven't a clue.... if you think that game yesterday was a kick fest and boring id suggest you really don't know much about the game.

thomond2006 · 02-03-2015 11:16am

Paul Wallace actually used the Jack Charlton comparison on Friday on TLW.

OldRio · 02-03-2015 11:35am

Gits_bone wrote: »

Murray and Henshaw broke that both led nowhere near to a try scoring opportunity. Box kicking it every 2 mins. Very much the rugby version of long ball. England knocked it on so many times, good job their handling wasn't the best.

I see you stopped posting your drivel on the match thread following our try. Never mind. It takes all sorts.

Gits_bone · 02-03-2015 11:43am

OldRio wrote: »

I see you stopped posting your drivel on the match thread following our try. Never mind. It takes all sorts.

It was a kick sure. And we continued to kick it.

O Shea talked about it, Hook talked about it. It was a kick fest.

ThisRegard · 02-03-2015 11:46am

Gits_bone wrote: »

It was a kick sure. And we continued to kick it.

O Shea talked about it, Hook talked about it. It was a kick fest.

Did you close your eyes and ears when they also talked about the effectiveness of it?

OldRio · 02-03-2015 11:49am

Gits_bone wrote: »

It was a kick sure. And we continued to kick it.

O Shea talked about it, Hook talked about it. It was a kick fest.

Bye bye. Button pressed.

.ak · 02-03-2015 11:55am

Folks first and last warning. Be civil or don't post at all.

Gits_bone · 02-03-2015 11:59am

sydthebeat wrote: »

To gits bone and black menorca

Lads, give it up, you really haven't a clue.... if you think that game yesterday was a kick fest and boring id suggest you really don't know much about the game.

So Conor O'Shea hasn't a clue?

Gits_bone · 02-03-2015 12:00pm

OldRio wrote: »

Bye bye. Button pressed.

Oh

Gits_bone · 02-03-2015 12:01pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

Did you close your eyes and ears when they also talked about the effectiveness of it?

Sigh.

Once again I never said it wasn't effective. In fact you'll find posts where I said it was effective.

sydthebeat · 02-03-2015 12:17pm

Gits_bone wrote: »

So Conor O'Shea hasn't a clue?

Are you Conor O Shea?

If not, then the point still stands.

Gits_bone · 02-03-2015 12:24pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Are you Conor O Shea?

If not, then the point still stands.

I had the same viewpoint as COnor O Shea before analysis began.

Great defence. "Are you Conor O'Shea?" Lol.

sydthebeat · 02-03-2015 12:32pm

Don't fool yourself, you did not have the same viewpoint

Black Menorca · 02-03-2015 6:44pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

To gits bone and black menorca

Lads, give it up, you really haven't a clue.... if you think that game yesterday was a kick fest and boring id suggest you really don't know much about the game.

OK.

Black Menorca · 02-03-2015 6:44pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Paul Wallace actually used the Jack Charlton comparison on Friday on TLW.

The bugger is robbing my lines.

Rightwing · 03-03-2015 12:39am

There is definitely some similarities between them which is a little strange, as Schmidt had leinster playing a nice brand of rugby.
Not so with Ireland. The ball is up in the air as much as Charlton had it, not sure which boys got more height when hoofing the ball up in the air.
Both were canny and set up their teams first and foremost as being difficult to beat.

Schmidt is much more media friendly.

Gits_bone · 03-03-2015 10:58am

He'd probably be closer to Tony Pulis in the modern game. Great in defence and full of workhorses.

03-03-2015 11:04am

This is such utter nonsense. Last year we won 3/5 of our six nations games by 22, 23 and 39 points with a plethora of tries in all of them. It actually annoys me how people are trying their hardest to belittle the consistent success of this team.

.ak · 03-03-2015 11:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

This is such utter nonsense. Last year we won 3/5 of our six nations games by 22, 23 and 39 points with a plethora of tries in all of them. It actually annoys me how people are trying their hardest to belittle the consistent success of this team.

Like I said before the English game; people remember your last 2 games in international rugby and base that as your assessment. Short memories and all that... In truth we have been deploying a kicking game over the last few games, including some of the AI games, but it wasn't long ago before we were cutting France apart from the halfway line with ball in hand. The ability is there, but in tight games we're always going to play to our strengths, and with two best kicking halfbacks why not?

At times we looked to open up England with ball in hand, I thought our game was very varied. I think it's a little overshadowed that literally all our points came off the boot or result of the boot. But that scrum under the posts with the decoy runners off the scrum and then back into Kearney was sublime. England don't get enough credit for their defensive display - any other team and that would've been a try under the sticks, and it would've been a sublime try.

Hermy · 03-03-2015 11:36am

In one way I think it's great that the team are winning and yet people aren't happy.
We're getting used to winning and demanding so much more of the team.
And I think it's the same for the lads on the pitch.
There would have been a time when any win was a cause for celebration.
Now the celebrations are less exuberant - kind of like 'job done, next please'.
I don't know about comparisons with Charlton but I think under Schmidt there's good reason to demand more and I think we'll see that against Wales and in the World Cup.

davegrohl48 · 03-03-2015 11:44am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is such utter nonsense. Last year we won 3/5 of our six nations games by 22, 23 and 39 points with a plethora of tries in all of them. It actually annoys me how people are trying their hardest to belittle the consistent success of this team.

Well there has been a big fall off in try scoring in this years Six Nations. Only 12 tries if you leave out the Italy games. Leaving out Italy in the years since 2000, 2013 only had 24 tries. 2015 looks as if will be 20-22 tries the lowest year of any year since 2000. In the 00's we had a level of try scoring amongst the five nations teams (minus Italy) in the 40's n 50's. This actually suits us as we're the best in the kicking game/set pieces/rucks/mauls/breakdown. Those five facets of play I'd say it's a gap to second place.
Hence in the low scoring rugby we see now it's much more likely to be us coming out on the winning side.

Rightwing · 03-03-2015 11:46am

Hermy wrote: »

In one way I think it's great that the team are winning and yet people aren't happy.
We're getting used to winning and demanding so much more of the team.
And I think it's the same for the lads on the pitch.
There would have been a time when any win was a cause for celebration.
Now the celebrations are less exuberant - kind of like 'job done, next please'.
I don't know about comparisons with Charlton but I think under Schmidt there's good reason to demand more and I think we'll see that against Wales and in the World Cup.

Mine is merely an observation rather than a criticism. And in Schmidt's favour, top level rugby is going that way as a whole. Big men, leading to crash, bang, wallop.

Gits_bone · 03-03-2015 11:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

This is such utter nonsense. Last year we won 3/5 of our six nations games by 22, 23 and 39 points with a plethora of tries in all of them. It actually annoys me how people are trying their hardest to belittle the consistent success of this team.

Tactics change you know.

The level of kicking this year is insane. Also 4/5 players have changed from 11-15.

.ak · 03-03-2015 11:56am

Hermy wrote: »

In one way I think it's great that the team are winning and yet people aren't happy.
We're getting used to winning and demanding so much more of the team.
And I think it's the same for the lads on the pitch.
There would have been a time when any win was a cause for celebration.
Now the celebrations are less exuberant - kind of like 'job done, next please'.
I don't know about comparisons with Charlton but I think under Schmidt there's good reason to demand more and I think we'll see that against Wales and in the World Cup.

Thing is, from what I've read, it's not that people are demanding more, it's that they just don't like the way we're going about it. The step up in another gear is probably there, but that doesn't equal to sexy running rugby, which is seemingly what people want.

I thought that English victory was the sweetest of them all. How many times have they done that to us?

Rightwing · 03-03-2015 11:59am

Gits_bone wrote: »

Tactics change you know.

The level of kicking this year is insane. Also 4/5 players have changed from 11-15.

Northern hemisphere rugby is devoid of ideas.
Australia play the nicest brand of international rugby. Would be good to see them win the W Cup for this reason alone.

Hermy · 03-03-2015 12:04pm

.ak wrote: »

Thing is, from what I've read, it's not that people are demanding more, it's that they just don't like the way we're going about it. The step up in another gear is probably there, but that doesn't equal to sexy running rugby, which is seemingly what people want.

I thought that English victory was the sweetest of them all. How many times have they done that to us?

That's the thing - winning rugby isn't always pretty. Sometimes it's an arm wrestle from start to finish.

And I don't mean to play down the English win - it was a sweet, sweet victory.

03-03-2015 12:10pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Northern hemisphere rugby is devoid of ideas.
Australia play the nicest brand of international rugby. Would be good to see them win the W Cup for this reason alone.

Ah jaysus... I think I'll drop out of this debate entirely. You only have to look at the line out and maul defence to see all sorts going on.

Rightwing · 03-03-2015 12:12pm

Some Welsh criticisms of Ireland (from indo):

'Their tactical plan is based around a kicking game'

I agree.

'When Jonny Sexton isn’t on the field they aren’t the same force'

I agree.

'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'

I agree.

'They lack out-and-out pace'

I agree.

'Their goal-kicking isn’t in the same league as Wales’

Talking about pressure getting to Sexton, slightly harsh I feel.

'Their midfield defence hasn’t been severely tested this Six Nations'

I agree, but it is more than adequate to contain and 6N team.

.ak · 03-03-2015 12:12pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Northern hemisphere rugby is devoid of ideas.
Australia play the nicest brand of international rugby. Would be good to see them win the W Cup for this reason alone.

Not really sure how you can say this when we alone have deployed a massively varied game plan over the past 12 months. There's plenty of ways of skinning a cat, and most of them you'll get your hands dirty.

It's only devoid of ideas if you keep using the same idea and lose whilst doing it.

WinnyThePoo · 03-03-2015 12:16pm

I think people don't realise how both teams on Sunday Defended. English where superb in defense. There where a number of wonderfully crafted set plays of line outs we tried to employ which didn't get through from a superb Defense.

The battle in the air was fascinating.

.ak · 03-03-2015 12:17pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Some Welsh criticisms of Ireland (from indo):

'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'

I agree.

Disagree, as I said above, we've shown a vastly varied game plan over the past 12 months. 'Creativity' isn't an issue.

'They lack out-and-out pace'

I agree.

Zebo, Bowe, Payne?

'Their goal-kicking isn’t in the same league as Wales’

Talking about pressure getting to Sexton, slightly harsh I feel.

Not sure what they're on about there. We have an 85% kicker starting and a 90+% kicker on the bench. What league are they in? Above 100% international standard?

'Their midfield defence hasn’t been severely tested this Six Nations'

I agree, but it is more than adequate to contain and 6N team.

They've played against the Boks midfield, France and England's. The only midfield I'd rate over them in terms of a defensive effort required is the ABs... Defensively speaking they've been severely tested and they've gotten A+

.ak · 03-03-2015 12:19pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I think people don't realise how both teams on Sunday Defended. English where superb in defense. There where a number of wonderfully crafted set plays of line outs we tried to employ which didn't get through from a superb Defense.

The battle in the air was fascinating.

Yeah, at the game myself and the missus kept commentating on how good the English defence was. You really had to applaud it, it was really good. People are being overly harsh on them I think.

sydthebeat · 03-03-2015 12:22pm

.ak wrote: »

It's only devoid of ideas if you keep using the same idea and lose whilst doing it.

are you listening warren ......

Black Menorca · 03-03-2015 6:17pm

Gits_bone wrote: »

He'd probably be closer to Tony Pulis in the modern game. Great in defence and full of workhorses.

I can live with that comparison.

Podge_irl · 03-03-2015 6:27pm

Rightwing wrote: »

'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'

I agree.

How would anyone know?

SaveOurLyric · 03-03-2015 9:41pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Some Welsh criticisms of Ireland (from indo):
'Their tactical plan is based around a kicking game'

I agree.
'When Jonny Sexton isn’t on the field they aren’t the same force'

I agree.
'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'

I agree.
'They lack out-and-out pace'

I agree.
'Their goal-kicking isn’t in the same league as Wales’

Talking about pressure getting to Sexton, slightly harsh I feel.
'Their midfield defence hasn’t been severely tested this Six Nations'

I agree, but it is more than adequate to contain and 6N team.

- How is tactical game based around a kicking plan a criticism? If its the most effective tactic, then surely it is praise ?
- Jonny. Smart observation. Remove a world class player, a contender for best in his position in the world, from the key game controlling position in rugby, and say the team isnt the same without him. Great to have paid journos coming up with such gems of insight.
- if your winning game plan doesnt put you in the position of chasing a game, how would he know, or why would they even need to do so ?
- Lack of pace is a problem only you are using pace as a tactic. Clearly he doesnt really understand Joe's tactic.
- Goal kicking is in the same league. Sexton a little lower down that league though (i.e. missing one penalty more in about 30 kicks). The difference is unlikely to ever swing a game.
- We dont give the opposition the ball enough to test out midfield.

SaveOurLyric · 03-03-2015 9:50pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Northern hemisphere rugby is devoid of ideas.

Not sure if you are including Joe in 'Northern hemisphere rugby' here or not.
If you arent, then you may be right - we had to import a Kiwi to bring us an idea.
If you are, then you are wrong - Ireland is perfecting an excellent new idea in rugby, based on an almost pure kick and chase game (with a bit of maul thrown in). Eschewing romatic half-baked ideas about variety and passing as the way to win. Instead, we have identified a very effective way to dominate and win games (which doesnt necessarily mean winning by 30 points - you can also crush a team by 6 or 9 points).

Can we make a correlation between Jack Charlton and Joe Schmidt?

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