Can we make a correlation between Jack Charlton and Joe Schmidt?

Black Menorca · 15-02-2015 6:52pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

You didn't provide any figures.

But i will. His win rate was 50%.
Very good to get us to championships. Not good enough to win them.

Brian kerrs rate is 55% by the way.

Anyways that beside the point. There is no co relation between these two very distinct people in two distinct sports.

Charltons style may have been banal, but the performances whipped the nation into a frenzy between 88 and 94. I was a teenager of this period so i remember it very well. Performances did not matter, winning games and getting results were all that mattered.

We got to a world cup quarter final while not winning a game in 90 mins. ... did people complain that they werent been served champagne football. ... did they fcuk.

Whereas we are winning championships, beating BIG teams, and not just being "proud Ireland" who did well for sixty minutes before being rail roaded.

I remember THOSE horrible days of the eighties and nineties as well.

Maybe the performances didn't bother you, but it did bother others I'm afraid.

Do you remmeber Ireland Norway, Ireland Holland and Ireland Mexico in '94? Dreadful, mind numbing stuff.

matthew8 · 15-02-2015 6:55pm

Schmidt's Ireland are one of the best sides in the world. That's one big difference. Ireland play differently in every game under Schmidt too. His first Autumn series was anything but dull, nor was the Australian game last Autumn, or away to France last year.

sydthebeat · 15-02-2015 6:57pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Maybe the performances didn't bother you, but it did bother others I'm afraid.

Do you remmeber Ireland Norway, Ireland Holland and Ireland Mexico in '94? Dreadful, mind numbing stuff.

And the country still partied, Thanks to Ray Houghtons shin.

Only eternal nah Sayers like eamon dunphy were unhappy with the 88-94 period.

I tell you what, let's give schmidt the same nine years that Charlton got and comment then, instead of complaining 1 year into his unbelievably successful tenure.

lologram · 15-02-2015 7:02pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Maybe the performances didn't bother you, but it did bother others I'm afraid.

Do you remmeber Ireland Norway, Ireland Holland and Ireland Mexico in '94? Dreadful, mind numbing stuff.

I didn't realise Norway, Holland and Mexico were particularly into rugby.

thebaz · 15-02-2015 7:03pm

No - Jack Charlton played dour hoofball with a super talented bunch of players - Joe plays attractive rugby , certainly his brand at Leinster was;

Both have been successful, but Joe's test will be the WC , a stage where Charlton did bring Ireland to heights not seen before.

Black Menorca · 15-02-2015 7:09pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

And the country still partied, Thanks to Ray Houghtons shin.

Only eternal nah Sayers like eamon dunphy were unhappy with the 88-94 period.

I tell you what, let's give Schmidt the same nine years that Charlton got and comment then, instead of complaining 1 year into his unbelievably successful tenure.

Oh, I partied. Getting sloshed in The Harp. Happy days.

Because I make a comparison to our dour performances in ruby now with Charlton's era doesn't mean I don't like winning or being successful.

Nor does it mean it doesn't hold water either.

Would being compared to Charlton be a bad thing?

Gits_bone · 15-02-2015 7:11pm

He certainly played an up them and at them style yesterday. WC will be the big test to see if they can do it when it matters.

thebaz · 15-02-2015 7:14pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Because I make a comparison to our dour performances in ruby now with Charlton's era doesn't mean I don't like winning or being successful.

Joe Schmidt introduced a style of winning rugby to Leinster , never seen at the top level (by an Irish team) - the brand was extremely successful and stylish - Joe Schmidt coaching is successful first , style comes second (and rightly so ) - but dour is the last thing you could call possibly the best coach in world rugby right now.

sydthebeat · 15-02-2015 7:20pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Would being compared to Charlton be a bad thing?

No not a bad thing, just a meaningless thing.
Sure compare him to Pete Sampras and Steven Hendry while youre at it.

Gits_bone · 15-02-2015 7:55pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

No not a bad thing, just a meaningless thing.
Sure compare him to Pete Sampras and Steven Hendry while youre at it.

Not really. They're 2 completely different sports.

It's like comparing tennis to volleyball.

sydthebeat · 15-02-2015 7:56pm

Gits_bone wrote: »

Not really. They're 2 completely different sports.

It's like comparing tennis to volleyball.

EXACTLY MY POINT

Gits_bone · 15-02-2015 7:57pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

EXACTLY MY POINT

It will all come down to the world cup.

we got found out in the last WC.

Will the same happen again?

Dangerous Man · 15-02-2015 10:16pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Dark and with a peak

Well - that's all the evidence I need.

Tox56 · 15-02-2015 10:19pm

Gits_bone wrote: »

It will all come down to the world cup.

we got found out in the last WC.

Will the same happen again?

If we get a grand slam will it actually all come down to the World Cup? I'd much rather a grand slam than a WC semi final

Kankan14 · 15-02-2015 10:56pm

Even if you people are talking negatively about our style of play being dull drab and ultra defensive( which I dont think it is) what does it matter. As Clive Woodward says test match rugby at WC Semi Final and beyond and grand slam deciders are all about results not playing champagne rugby.

Look at the last world cup final it was if memory serves a terrible game but the victors wont be remembered for playing the ultra defensive game they did. Rugby at top test match level is all about executing your game plan and minimizing mistakes. Joe is proving a mastercraftsman our discipline has been excellent, our penalty count quiet good and only two yellows in our last 10 test matches.

Charlton lucked out with a heap of premier league quality pro's who were good at their job. Schmidt is turning players that are good into even better players with his brilliant tactical nous.

errlloyd · 15-02-2015 10:58pm

I was born in 91 so don't ask me about my memories of Charlton. But the way people talk about him, it's like he developed a game plan we used all the time, against all opposition.

Joe tailors his game plan. The Wales team we played in last year's 6n are a good team, we opened against them. Even against the All Blacks in 2013 we looked to score tries. The last two weeks have been limited, because the last two weeks were hard bloody games.

Conclusion, the reason were doing well, is because we have no set style, we're adaptable.

Gits_bone · 15-02-2015 11:28pm

Tox56 wrote: »

If we get a grand slam will it actually all come down to the World Cup? I'd much rather a grand slam than a WC semi final

RWC is the pinnacle. Every 4 years the world feasts its eyes on you. You want to prove yourself. 6 nations is every year and the grand slam has been done before.

galwaylad14 · 15-02-2015 11:29pm

I'm not sure I'd agree with that comparison but I do think some people are a bit deluded about Schmidt and his style of play as Ireland coach.

He's a world class coach and his results are top class. I think under him we'll reach heights never before reached in Irish Rugby. But let's call a spade a spade here, we generally play a very dull and conservative brand of rugby (with a few exceptions in fairness) under Schmidt.

Now that's not a criticism, he obviously feels that our style of play is the best way to play the game given the players we have and the results he has acheived would back that up totally. They've been consistently excellent. But we don't play expansive and exciting rugby, that's just a fact and it's nothing to be ashamed off. We have a very conservative style in which we look to minimise mistakes and squeeze the life out of the opposition through our power game and then look to Murray and (more so) Sexton to win us the game.

I'm delighted to see Ireland winning and long may it continue, but I really wouldn't think we're a team that the neutral would relish watching to be honest, unlike say some of the Welsh teams that have won Grand Slams over the last decade or so. But that fact certainly doesn't bother me to be honest.

Black Menorca · 01-03-2015 8:58pm

Well another mind numbing display. But 10 wins in a row. Far better than Charlton ever achieved.

ThisRegard · 01-03-2015 9:03pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Well another mind numbing display. But 10 wins in a row. Far better than Charlton ever achieved.

Which game are you talking about? Certainly not todays game anyway.

galwaylad14 · 01-03-2015 9:05pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Well another mind numbing display. But 10 wins in a row. Far better than Charlton ever achieved.

Not really a fair comparison given how much more prevalent draws are in soccer. I've no idea if Charlton ever went 10 games unbeaten but if he did this would be a more comparable acheivement

total former · 01-03-2015 9:06pm

Ugh this thread again.

And the title makes incorrect use of the word "correlation'.

bilston · 01-03-2015 9:10pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Well another mind numbing display.

Just no

Black Menorca · 01-03-2015 9:27pm

total former wrote: »

Ugh this thread again.

And the title makes incorrect use of the word "correlation'.

No one's forcing you to come in here.

Black Menorca · 01-03-2015 9:30pm

bilston wrote: »

Just no

Very impressive defensively, but no attacking flair. Kicking possession away ad nauseum.

Laying down the challenge to the opposition 'Break us down if you think you can' being the predominant message.

Heck, its getting the results, so I'm more than willing to take it. But lets call a spade a spade here.

bilston · 01-03-2015 9:36pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Very impressive defensively, but no attacking flair. Kicking possession away ad nauseum.

Laying down the challenge to the opposition 'Break us down if you think you can' being the predominant message.

Heck, its getting the results, so I'm more than willing to take it. But lets call a spade a spade here.

There was plenty of attacking rugby on show. Yes there is more to come but today was a step up from previous games.

TheCitizen · 01-03-2015 9:57pm

bilston wrote: »

In the first quarter yesterday Ireland did play expansively, however the French were up very quickly in defence (legally or otherwise) which cut down a lot of attacking options. The French tacklers also seemed very slow to move in the ruck as well which helped slow our ball down and again limited what we could do.

Last week we were limited but we had an inexperienced 10 and to be frank didn't need to do anything more than what we did do, which was wear the Italians down. But for a downpour in the last quarter we may well have broken loose and won by more than 23 points away from home with a third of our first team missing...

There is a bizarre air of negativity amongst some posters which is strange.

We just beat the French at home for the first time in 6 years. We have won 9 tests in a row to equal our record. We have created more depth than ever before. We are the defending Six Nations champions. We have key players who have been injured and are now just back from injury and are unlikely to have peaked.

We're in a good place, let's stop looking for negatives that just aren't there.

I think there's an issue with this in the Rugby game now, more than it used to be perhaps. I thought England were offside a good bit more than they were called out on today.

Maybe Ireland were too, I only ever noticed when the English were so quick on top of our back line:pac:. Whether it was legal or not, it made it very difficult to move the ball and Ireland did what was necessary with their kicking game to win despite that.

TheCitizen · 01-03-2015 10:00pm

Gits_bone wrote: »

RWC is the pinnacle. Every 4 years the world feasts its eyes on you. You want to prove yourself. 6 nations is every year and the grand slam has been done before.

Wales is going to be tough, especially with the injuries Ireland have picked up.

spiralism · 02-03-2015 1:06am

Kankan14 wrote: »

Even if you people are talking negatively about our style of play being dull drab and ultra defensive( which I dont think it is) what does it matter. As Clive Woodward says test match rugby at WC Semi Final and beyond and grand slam deciders are all about results not playing champagne rugby.

Look at the last world cup final it was if memory serves a terrible game but the victors wont be remembered for playing the ultra defensive game they did. Rugby at top test match level is all about executing your game plan and minimizing mistakes. Joe is proving a mastercraftsman our discipline has been excellent, our penalty count quiet good and only two yellows in our last 10 test matches.

Charlton lucked out with a heap of premier league quality pro's who were good at their job. Schmidt is turning players that are good into even better players with his brilliant tactical nous.

Last RWC final was a terrific game in terms of drama and tension. Same discussion as regards our matches, it was defensive and cagey but a great spectacle

02-03-2015 1:18am

Black Menorca wrote: »

Very impressive defensively, but no attacking flair. Kicking possession away ad nauseum.

Laying down the challenge to the opposition 'Break us down if you think you can' being the predominant message.

Heck, its getting the results, so I'm more than willing to take it. But lets call a spade a spade here.

England kicked just as much as Ireland. There were plenty of half breaks by both teams that both teams defensively shut down. You're entitled to your opinion and all that, but my opinion is that your opinion is nonsense.

Can we make a correlation between Jack Charlton and Joe Schmidt?

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