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Can we make a correlation between Jack Charlton and Joe Schmidt?

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    #92
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Some Welsh criticisms of Ireland (from indo):
    • 'Their tactical plan is based around a kicking game'
    I agree.
    • 'When Jonny Sexton isn’t on the field they aren’t the same force'
    I agree.
    • 'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'
    I agree.
    • 'They lack out-and-out pace'
    I agree.
    • 'Their goal-kicking isn’t in the same league as Wales’
    Talking about pressure getting to Sexton, slightly harsh I feel.
    • 'Their midfield defence hasn’t been severely tested this Six Nations'
    I agree, but it is more than adequate to contain and 6N team.


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    #93
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Northern hemisphere rugby is devoid of ideas.
    Australia play the nicest brand of international rugby. Would be good to see them win the W Cup for this reason alone.

    Not really sure how you can say this when we alone have deployed a massively varied game plan over the past 12 months. There's plenty of ways of skinning a cat, and most of them you'll get your hands dirty.

    It's only devoid of ideas if you keep using the same idea and lose whilst doing it.


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    #94
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    I think people don't realise how both teams on Sunday Defended. English where superb in defense. There where a number of wonderfully crafted set plays of line outs we tried to employ which didn't get through from a superb Defense.

    The battle in the air was fascinating.


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    #95
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Some Welsh criticisms of Ireland (from indo):

    • 'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'
    I agree.

    Disagree, as I said above, we've shown a vastly varied game plan over the past 12 months. 'Creativity' isn't an issue.
    • 'They lack out-and-out pace'
    I agree.

    Zebo, Bowe, Payne?
    • 'Their goal-kicking isn’t in the same league as Wales’
    Talking about pressure getting to Sexton, slightly harsh I feel.

    Not sure what they're on about there. We have an 85% kicker starting and a 90+% kicker on the bench. What league are they in? Above 100% international standard?
    • 'Their midfield defence hasn’t been severely tested this Six Nations'
    I agree, but it is more than adequate to contain and 6N team.

    They've played against the Boks midfield, France and England's. The only midfield I'd rate over them in terms of a defensive effort required is the ABs... Defensively speaking they've been severely tested and they've gotten A+


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    #96
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    I think people don't realise how both teams on Sunday Defended. English where superb in defense. There where a number of wonderfully crafted set plays of line outs we tried to employ which didn't get through from a superb Defense.

    The battle in the air was fascinating.

    Yeah, at the game myself and the missus kept commentating on how good the English defence was. You really had to applaud it, it was really good. People are being overly harsh on them I think.


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    #97
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,045 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    .ak wrote: »

    It's only devoid of ideas if you keep using the same idea and lose whilst doing it.

    are you listening warren ......


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    #98
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Gits_bone wrote: »
    He'd probably be closer to Tony Pulis in the modern game. Great in defence and full of workhorses.

    I can live with that comparison. :)


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    #99
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,407 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Rightwing wrote: »
    • 'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'
    I agree.

    How would anyone know? :confused:


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    #100
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Some Welsh criticisms of Ireland (from indo):
    • 'Their tactical plan is based around a kicking game'
    I agree.
    • 'When Jonny Sexton isn’t on the field they aren’t the same force'
    I agree.
    • 'Make them chase a game and a lack of creativity can surface'
    I agree.
    • 'They lack out-and-out pace'
    I agree.
    • 'Their goal-kicking isn’t in the same league as Wales’
    Talking about pressure getting to Sexton, slightly harsh I feel.
    • 'Their midfield defence hasn’t been severely tested this Six Nations'
    I agree, but it is more than adequate to contain and 6N team.



    - How is tactical game based around a kicking plan a criticism? If its the most effective tactic, then surely it is praise ?
    - Jonny. Smart observation. Remove a world class player, a contender for best in his position in the world, from the key game controlling position in rugby, and say the team isnt the same without him. Great to have paid journos coming up with such gems of insight.
    - if your winning game plan doesnt put you in the position of chasing a game, how would he know, or why would they even need to do so ?
    - Lack of pace is a problem only you are using pace as a tactic. Clearly he doesnt really understand Joe's tactic.
    - Goal kicking is in the same league. Sexton a little lower down that league though (i.e. missing one penalty more in about 30 kicks). The difference is unlikely to ever swing a game.
    - We dont give the opposition the ball enough to test out midfield.


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    #101
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Northern hemisphere rugby is devoid of ideas.

    Not sure if you are including Joe in 'Northern hemisphere rugby' here or not.
    If you arent, then you may be right - we had to import a Kiwi to bring us an idea.
    If you are, then you are wrong - Ireland is perfecting an excellent new idea in rugby, based on an almost pure kick and chase game (with a bit of maul thrown in). Eschewing romatic half-baked ideas about variety and passing as the way to win. Instead, we have identified a very effective way to dominate and win games (which doesnt necessarily mean winning by 30 points - you can also crush a team by 6 or 9 points).


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    #102
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Not sure if you are including Joe in 'Northern hemisphere rugby' here or not.
    If you arent, then you may be right - we had to import a Kiwi to bring us an idea.
    If you are, then you are wrong - Ireland is perfecting an excellent new idea in rugby, based on an almost pure kick and chase game (with a bit of maul thrown in). Eschewing romatic half-baked ideas about variety and passing as the way to win. Instead, we have identified a very effective way to dominate and win games (which doesnt necessarily mean winning by 30 points - you can also crush a team by 6 or 9 points).

    I don't think we are limited to a kicking game. We have played with a variety of different tactics over the past two years and are constantly evolving. We just keep adding new weapons to our arsenal as we perfect them. We have a maul, a lineout, a scrum, a rucking game both offensive and defensive and a kicking game. More will come.


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    #103
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    rrpc wrote: »
    I don't think we are limited to a kicking game. We have played with a variety of different tactics over the past two years and are constantly evolving. We just keep adding new weapons to our arsenal as we perfect them. We have a maul, a lineout, a scrum, a rucking game both offensive and defensive and a kicking game. More will come.

    Not sure. I wouldnt call it 'limited' to a kicking game though (more 'optimised' to a kicking game), it is what we have evolved to. And its very good.

    Lineout and scrum are just a basic part of the game rather than a tactic, and we use them just to launch our various variations of maul or kicks. Rucking is the other side of the coin of the kicking game : ruck to win the ball, or the penalty, or to set up the next kick play.

    Agree that more will come, but expect it will be even more, and more effective, kicking. The more we kick, and the better we do it, the more effective we are at a) getting out of our own half (and so away from the danger zone where we might concede points), and b) offensive kicking opportunities in the opposition half.
    Every ruck or pick-and-go dart is a risk (knocking on, getting caught in position, robbed, support player pinged coming into the ruck, etc) : the ball is won so the sooner you kick it, the quicker you have achieved your goal. At them moment we use these multiple rucks to engineer the best player positions (both our own to attack, and weaknesses in the opposition shape to exploit), but it can take us multiple plays to achieve. I expect this to improve as the team develops and the players increase their skill at these tactics. And so in general getting their kicks in quicker, and so more per game.


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    #104
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    I'll be very interested in the game v Wales. Will tell a lot about both Schmidt & Gatland.


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    #105
    davegrohl48
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭davegrohl48


    The other thing people forget is that we will likely get Healy/Heaslip/OBrien on the pitch as ball carriers. It would have made a big difference to have them on the pitch from the beginning.
    We had no genuine consistent ball carrier upfront once OBrien went off.
    When I say ball carrier I mean someone capable of getting beyond the gain line even with a strong defender facing them. Many of our forwards are very stoppable in that same scenario. Henderson came on but didn't seem to get a run going. Healy got well shook up with the head clash he had with Cole.
    If we add ball carrying to the current tactics we'll be very hard to beat.


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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Henshaw got over the gainline fairly easily. Imagine what him and BOD could have done...


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    #107
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Oh dear.

    Just like under Jack, when plan A isn't working, the only alternative is plan A again, and again.

    Not a good sign going into the second half...


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    #108
    its_phil
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Oh dear.

    Just like under Jack, when plan A isn't working, the only alternative is plan A again, and again.

    Not a good sign going into the second half...

    WTF are you talking about? We're playing wide with the ball, and kicking a lot less than we are running.


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    #109
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,045 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    its_phil wrote: »
    WTF are you talking about? We're playing wide with the ball, and kicking a lot less than we are running.

    Don't mind him phil. He hasn't a clue. ... pure troll behavior


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    #110
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    Dreadful performance in terms of originality, flair and precision.

    Joe has over coached these lads in his singular and rigid game plan. He has no confidence in their ability to play an expansive game.

    Rumbled today...


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    #111
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Dreadful performance in terms of originality, flair and precision.

    Joe has over coached these lads in his singular and rigid game plan. He has no confidence in their ability to play an expansive game.

    Rumbled today...
    Watch out for the baby as you throw out the bathwater. Assuming you aren't in fact trolling


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    #112
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    No accusations of trolling please.


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