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Czech Republic vs ROI

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    #32
    rn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭rn


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    Yeah so you realize that if we wait until 2020 for the hard numbers, we miss a chance to make improvements on how we're lessening the impact right now? That's the whole point of using the data we have, which I admit is most likely not perfect. We have to take actions now and we can only do this with the data we have.

    Absolutely we must gather and use data. And it's very useful to see what techniques are being used to curb the disease in other countries.

    My point only relates to comparing statistics across countries. The real statistics that can be compared won't be known until afterwards and they are the ones analysing deaths. Testing appears to be non uniform across the world.


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    #33
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Danno wrote: »
    The death numbers are the most important metric of how your polices are working. The Czechs are miles better than us in this regard.
    Czechmate


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    #34
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,671 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    On masks, my understanding is that there is a lot of advice pro/anti. Personally I might wait, unless there is definitate ruling either way, until after the lockdown where I'm on public transport again.

    On comparisions with other countries, I think at a high level it is worth doing. The country I've paid attention to is Singapore ,due to its population size similar to Ireland ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Singapore )
    Given their low death rate (11), I'd say there is sometime deeply wrong with the upper levels of the Health organisations in this country.


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    #35
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    mickdw wrote: »
    The experts claimed a mask could actually create issues re putting hands to face etc but i dont buy that. It is clear there were no masks in the country to allow widespread use. They didnt have enough for nurses nevermind every man woman and child and thst surely swayed the initial advice.
    Anyone who can get their hands on a suitable mask, should wear it imo.

    The single biggest advantage of wearing a mask is that it prevents you from touching your nose and mouth. It's unbelievable so little people are wearing them and one of the reasons we will move out of the soft lockdown slower than most.


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    #36
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Manach wrote: »
    On masks, my understanding is that there is a lot of advice pro/anti. Personally I might wait, unless there is definitate ruling either way, until after the lockdown where I'm on public transport again.
    Well the way I look at it M is this; masks clearly work in reducing the risk of transmission in clinical settings and in home settings with infections present and are advised for both by the WHO/HSE/ECDC/CDC/every other collection of letters out there, even when they say they're unlikely to help beyond those areas. If they work in reducing risk there they will work in reducing risk in every enclosed shared space. Unless there's some magical difference going on, which there isn't. Plus every single nation that is doing better than us mandates their use in public shared spaces and European nations whos authorities also ignored their use are now using them as they try to get back to normal business.
    On comparisions with other countries, I think at a high level it is worth doing. The country I've paid attention to is Singapore ,due to its population size similar to Ireland ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Singapore )
    Given their low death rate (11), I'd say there is sometime deeply wrong with the upper levels of the Health organisations in this country.
    Yep and never mind that Singapore's population density makes Ireland look barely inhabited by comparison. Even with that massive advantage and the advantage of lead time compared to Singapore our numbers are too high.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #37
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    The single biggest advantage of wearing a mask is that it prevents you from touching your nose and mouth.
    Actually the biggest advantage in the case of basic masks and surgical masks is that it massively reduces the droplets expelled towards other people and onto surfaces. If everyone wore one the asymptomatic infected couldn't shed nearly as much viral load beyond themselves, plus the non infected wearing one would stop whatever remained getting into their airways which would reduce transmission in the community.

    This vid shows the difference in droplets with a mask and no mask.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASi5OUv9Pg


    Go to 35 seconds in.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #38
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    a_squirrelman wrote: »
    Only testing about 3000 per day but they did shut down very early.

    That is actually not bad considering the population and I get the results are back in a day which actually enables quick response.

    Ireland messed up with testing, there is no point collecting 10k tests per day if you don't process them that day. Anyway Central European countries acted quickly and their numbers are low. I think it's also different organisation of care homes (yes they have them and there are issues there but there is less movement of staff). I know a bit about Slovenian response and it was better than Irish, health system in both countries has similar issues. BTW Slovenia banned public transport Czcecia only allows people who wear masks from beginning (reliance on cars is apparently the main reason why infections in Slovenia didn't spread more despite land border with Italy and people skiing there during school holidays). All those countries still have some production capacities where they can produce masks for general population so medically certified equipment is for professionals. Ireland can't demand people to wear masks because it can only import them (there is not enough home-made stuff) and general population would compete with first line staff for scarce resources.

    I think some health and public sector infrastructure is better organised in those countries and it was suited to deal with pandemics. Besides commie states were paranoid about public risks and they loved drills how to organise population.


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    #39
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,159 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    The single biggest advantage of wearing a mask is that it prevents you from touching your nose and mouth. It's unbelievable so little people are wearing them and one of the reasons we will move out of the soft lockdown slower than most.

    And it also catches viruses that you breath or cough out. Seems a no brainier to me.


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    #40
    a_squirrelman
    Registered Users Posts: 604 ✭✭✭a_squirrelman


    the.red.baron wrote: »
    deaths are all that matters



    what are they doing right that the Czechs are doing wrong

    They weren't testing in nursing homes for a start. Which has led to the mayor of Bratislava to divert city funds into testing there since the state aren't helping.

    So I wouldn't hold my breathe that they are reporting accurate death figures from them either.

    We'll know more in a few weeks for sure.


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    #41
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    OP i note you said Czech republic is land locked so it has alot passing through. but surely that does not mean alot staying or travelling.

    Just 1 stat i noted, GDP per capita in Czech is around $33K and ireland circa $77K. We had alot of people going on far flung destinations and many travelling to heavily infected regions in Italy and Austrian ski resorts before and during when the virus kicked off (see the Ski forum for some of the idiocy that was going on there despite the warnings)

    Im assuming Ireland had a far greater transmission rate due to travel and ability and means to do so.


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    #42
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,181 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    I was comparing Ireland and Denmark a couple of weeks ago and we had roughly the same deaths per million - today we're over 600 deaths with Denmark at half of that.

    We're doing quite poorly, even by abysmal euro standards.


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    #43
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    listermint wrote: »
    OP i note you said Czech republic is land locked so it has alot passing through. but surely that does not mean alot staying or travelling.

    Just 1 stat i noted, GDP per capita in Czech is around $33K and ireland circa $77K. We had alot of people going on far flung destinations and many travelling to heavily infected regions in Italy and Austrian ski resorts before and during when the virus kicked off (see the Ski forum for some of the idiocy that was going on there despite the warnings)

    Im assuming Ireland had a far greater transmission rate due to travel and ability and means to do so.
    Actually the Czechs have over double the number of tourist traffic into their country than us and we're pretty high on that score. There was also a fair bit of travelling for matches and skiing in the lead up to their crackdown. Over twice the population with a similar ratio of olde people and our average age is around the same(early 40's IIRC) and they've also higher population densities and more people in apartments. Yet even if they were fudging their figures they'd have to by under reporting by a factor of about five to get to our mortality figures. They've even had recent days without a single death.

    We are not doing so great at all. Sure compared to the UK yeah, but they're one of the sickest in Europe, after Spain and Italy.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #44
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    KindOfIrish wrote: »
    The virus is practically harmless to majority of population. So wearing mask or not doesn't make any difference. The only factor in mortality rate are nursing homes. There are not many nursing homes in Czechia.

    Sky News last night had a graph comparison on Czech and their next door neighbours Austria. At the start both countries closely tracked each other for cases/deaths. Then Czech ordered the entire public to wear masks, Austria did not. Within a week Austrian numbers began to spike upwards whereas Czech numbers remained flat. Then 10 days after the Czechs ordered wearing of masks Austria then followed suit, within a week Austrian cases went back down to match Czech levels again.

    Its not conclusive that the masks were the reason why but one thing we know is Czech were the fastest out of the traps to order them plus they have some of the lowest numbers in Europe.
    MadYaker wrote: »
    Wearing masks make a big difference. All the countries that are doing well have mandated mask wearing

    Definitely seems that way to me, South Korea another country all wearing masks, Taiwan the same


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    #45
    FreshCoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭FreshCoffee


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Sky News last night had a graph comparison on Czech and their next door neighbours Austria. At the start both countries closely tracked each other for cases/deaths. Then Czech ordered the entire public to wear masks, Austria did not. Within a week Austrian numbers began to spike upwards whereas Czech numbers remained flat. Then 10 days after the Czechs ordered wearing of masks Austria then followed suit, within a week Austrian cases went back down to match Czech levels again.

    Its not conclusive that the masks were the reason why but one thing we know is Czech were the fastest out of the traps to order them plus they have some of the lowest numbers in Europe.

    Definitely seems that way to me, South Korea another country all wearing masks, Taiwan the same

    I saw that segment on Channel 4 news last night. It was very interesting. You can see the segment here:
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1169&v=fPrETlGYMuE&feature=emb_logo

    I have always been pro-mask and cannot understand the counter arguments. We don't need a committee of specialists endlessly waiting to collect all the data they need so they can prove thay were wrong in the first place. It's as obvious as the nose on your face that if everyone wears a mask it will reduce the spread.


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Posted in another thread
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200407/doctors-puzzle-over-covid19-lung-problems

    Is protocol driven ventillation doing more harm than good and is the centre in the article in central europe with zero ICU deaths in the Czech Republic by any chance?

    I fear physicians in Ireland are often too afraid to break from protocol due to the litigation culture and I hope this is not preventing us from trying different treatment options


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    #47
    NH2013
    Registered Users Posts: 401 ✭✭NH2013


    FreshCoffee wrote: »
    I saw that segment on Channel 4 news last night. It was very interesting. You can see the segment here:
    www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1169&v=fPrETlGYMuE&feature=emb_logo

    I have always been pro-mask and cannot understand the counter arguments. We don't need a committee of specialists endlessly waiting to collect all the data they need so they can prove thay were wrong in the first place. It's as obvious as the nose on your face that if everyone wears a mask it will reduce the spread.

    I believe the counter argument to masks and the reasons we have not been yet ordered to wear them is that we don't produce them, so the supply we do have should be saved and used where they will have the most effect, and in Ireland's cases our supplies of masks should be used in hospitals and nursing homes by medical staff and patients.

    If we get to a place where we can produce enough for the general population then I believe the advice will change and they'll be required on public transport etc, but until that point it makes no sense to have a run on the national supply of masks and end up leaving our healthcare workers without protection, as they are the ones most likely to contract the virus.


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    #48
    FreshCoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭FreshCoffee


    NH2013 wrote: »
    I believe the counter argument to masks and the reasons we have not been yet ordered to wear them is that we don't produce them, so the supply we do have should be saved and used where they will have the most effect, and in Ireland's cases our supplies of masks should be used in hospitals and nursing homes by medical staff and patients.

    If we get to a place where we can produce enough for the general population then I believe the advice will change and they'll be required on public transport etc, but until that point it makes no sense to have a run on the national supply of masks and end up leaving our healthcare workers without protection, as they are the ones most likely to contract the virus.

    A few weeks ago I think it was Sean O'Rourke on RTE interviewed an Irish man living in the Czech Republic about their compulsory masks. He explained that you couldn't buy a mask there but the population got behind it and with instructions published in the media a small cottage industry developed with people making their own masks, masks for their family, neighbours etc. It was also allowed to go out if you covered your mouth and nose with eg a scarf.

    Of course there are people will sneer at this. Today we reported 77 deaths, the Czech Republic reported 2.


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    #49
    Spring Celebrator
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Spring Celebrator


    Copy paste from another thread
    Slovakia
    Restaurants bars etc closed from 16.3
    Mandatory 14 days ´home´ quarantine for people coming from abroad from 14.3.
    Masks mandatory from 25.3., although people wore it from 9ish of March, Prime minister and president wore them from 13.3.
    Mandatory quarantine in state accomodations for people coming from abroad from 6.4.
    Lockdown from 8.4.
    1173 infected, 13 deaths, 47000 tests (now at around 2000-3000/day), 251 recovered.
    Mandatory quarantine in state accomodations for people coming from abroad from 6.4.
    IMHO masks helped a lot but the quarantine was the game changer. Most of infected people in Slovakia are citizens coming from abroad.
    d5hjwupkdfo41.jpg


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    #50
    Spring Celebrator
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Spring Celebrator


    Also ffp2 ffp3 masks are not sold to citizens. Those masks are reserved for the health sector. After the elections, the new government found the state emergency equipment warehouses empty (kindly ´donated´ to china). Most citizens are wearing home made masks.


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    #51
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Are there any figures for the amount of deaths in Ireland that occured in nursing homes? There does appear to be clusters in them.

    A lot of nursing homes and hospitals rely on agency staff and this could add to the spread of the virus. An agency nurse could be in 5 different nursing homes in a week.

    Other countries may not have their elderly in nursing homes but cared for at home by family members.


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    #52
    Hmmzis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭Hmmzis


    Almost half of our deaths are from nursing homes.


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    #53
    Hani Kosti
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭Hani Kosti


    Just my two cents from a Czech living in Ireland for a good while now
    Mandatory masks made a huge difference in attitude. People very quickly realised social distancing was the way to go, many didn't use masks at the start (as none were available) so made them at home and brought masks to hospitals, nursing homes and other health care facilities.
    Border was closed very early on with only few exceptions. No in no out
    Schools, shops, pubs and eventually all non essential business, all closed.
    To answer the question re deaths, any death with positive covid-19 test is counted to total number (including nursing homes).
    At the end of the day, all I care about is my family and friends (both in Ireland and in Czech) to stay safe. Maybe we can see each other in 2020 again


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    #54
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Sky News last night had a graph comparison on Czech and their next door neighbours Austria. At the start both countries closely tracked each other for cases/deaths. Then Czech ordered the entire public to wear masks, Austria did not. Within a week Austrian numbers began to spike upwards whereas Czech numbers remained flat. Then 10 days after the Czechs ordered wearing of masks Austria then followed suit, within a week Austrian cases went back down to match Czech levels again.

    Its not conclusive that the masks were the reason why but one thing we know is Czech were the fastest out of the traps to order them plus they have some of the lowest numbers in Europe.



    Definitely seems that way to me, South Korea another country all wearing masks, Taiwan the same

    It's not conclusive at all, below is an estimate of the Austrian r0, tell me what day when you notice the masks having an effect

    536854_bigpicture_182135_eff-reprod-2020-04-17.png?b102a454

    The Czechs did more or less everything and quickly which stopped any centres building up imo, but I don't see from their data that you can pinpoint any particular measure.


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    #55
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Austria only made masks mandatory couple of weeks ago irc. There wouldn't be much an effect showing on any numbers but I think they probably hope it will help to contain the spread after they start opening up.


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    #56
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Austria only made masks mandatory couple of weeks ago irc. There wouldn't be much an effect showing on any numbers but I think they probably hope it will help to contain the spread after they start opening up.

    I think so.. it also helps to keep it in mind that we still have to be careful with distancing and keeping to essential trips


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    #57
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,615 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Hani Kosti wrote: »
    Just my two cents from a Czech living in Ireland for a good while now
    Mandatory masks made a huge difference in attitude. People very quickly realised social distancing was the way to go, many didn't use masks at the start (as none were available) so made them at home and brought masks to hospitals, nursing homes and other health care facilities.

    Thats interesting how the Czech population went making their own masks and the government showing tv ads on how to do it. Probably a cultural thing from Czech Republics history and people having to innovate and repair things when there was shortages of vital items. It was very clever thinking imo, talk about grabbing a problem by the horns.


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    #58
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    The last point, which I genuinely think can't be ignored here; they made masks mandatory. Everyone had to wear masks when outside or in work. Even their TV presenters wore them. You were fined if found not wearing a mask.

    I don't get why we haven't done this, even if it hasn't a scientific morsel of evidence to say it helps by a decent percentage, why not just do it anyway? It just makes no sense to me, we should have said "yeah, that might help. Let's cover our bases and make masks mandatory until we understand this thing better".

    So I hear masks are a good idea now, if only we thought of that sooner :rolleyes:


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    #59
    xhomelezz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Gone Drinking wrote: »
    So I hear masks are a good idea now, if only we thought of that sooner :rolleyes:

    Well you can blame the government and HSE, they just kept taking piss out of masks since the start and they keep at it, so public took the same approach. To be honest their incompetence drives me nuts by now. Stubborn bunch of clowns who is not even able to follow examples of successful countries in suppressing covid 19. Instead we do it Irish way ..


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    #60
    xhomelezz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Thats interesting how the Czech population went making their own masks and the government showing tv ads on how to do it. Probably a cultural thing from Czech Republics history and people having to innovate and repair things when there was shortages of vital items. It was very clever thinking imo, talk about grabbing a problem by the horns.

    Think it was a smart move to unite nation with clear info not only on masks. Everyone was on the same page. Here we are still not able to pull together.


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    #61
    ednwireland
    Registered Users Posts: 14,312 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    couldn't get masks for the population get prisoners to make them.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2020/03/24/coronavirus-czechs-facing-up-to-covid-19-crisis-by-making-masks-mandatory

    bit of quick thinking there capacity of 50000 a month.

    someone would probably take a legal case here if it was tried.

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



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