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Religious funerals for prominent nonbelievers

245

Comments

  • #52
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    wench wrote: »
    How can you ensure it legally though?
    Once you die your body becomes property of your next of kin, who can do with it as they wish.

    Via the will.

    http://www.fanagans.ie/faq/funeral-arrangements


  • #53
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Princess Calla wrote: »
    "I'm sorry" is a turn of phrase used in this context to politely disagree with the sentiment that once you're dead, your opinions and way of life no longer matter.

    I doubt I'll be a widow, we're too busy living in sin!

    Yes as the spouse she gets the final say, that's kinda the whole marriage lark isn't it? None of us know what she was thinking and why she chose to go in that direction. Also, none of us know if she regrets that decision.

    Well don’t ever be sorry to disagree with someone else.
    I’m interested in the idea that you think that you have to be married in order to be the point of reference for an undertaker in the death of a partner.
    Would you give way to your partners family's opinions and wishes in a crisis? You think that people who aren’t married are down a pecking order in terms of authority? That’s oddly old fashioned.


  • #54
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    beauf wrote: »
    Via the will.

    http://www.fanagans.ie/faq/funeral-arrangements

    It doesn’t say anything in there about making funeral arrangements legally enforceable.


  • #55
    wench
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭wench


    So you think the undertaker is going look to see a will before going ahead with the arrangements?
    Better hope the solicitor holding it, or the executor aren't away on holiday.

    And if the widow says she knows of no will?


  • #56
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Well don’t ever be sorry to disagree with someone else.
    I’m interested in the idea that you think that you have to be married in order to be the point of reference for an undertaker in the death of a partner.
    Would you give way to your partners family's opinions and wishes in a crisis? You think that people who aren’t married are down a pecking order in terms of authority? That’s oddly old fashioned.

    I never stated that I thought you had to be married to be the point of reference... I just said I wasn't married.

    I also never mentioned anything about pecking orders.


  • #57
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,478 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    I remember her talking about this in an interview a few years before she died. I think she said she didn't want to inflict a 'humanist funeral' on her nearest and dearest so she had approached the parish priest in Dalkey about having a traditional funeral even though she wasn't a believer and he said fine.


    Not sure what is 'inflicting' about a humanist funeral. A couple of the best funerals I've attended have been humanist - moving, memorable, inclusive, musical, driven by direct family - what's not to like?

    nthclare wrote: »
    I don't see what the fuss is about most atheists I know wouldn't care if they were buried in a hessian sack and thrown into a hole.

    After all sure they are not interested in a secular funeral and if its against their wishes to be given a Christian ritualistic funeral and they end up being buried along with a sacramental send off, sure nothing really matters.
    They're dead and according to their beliefs they won't know what happened...

    Some people's good will is other people's bad will..

    Just accept it
    I don't see the connection between atheism and not caring about the funeral. I'm an athiest, and I'd love to know that there is an 'event' to mark my departure. That's my wish.


  • #58
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,003 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    To me, funerals are for the living. They are alive and will do it for ya.

    I don't care what they do with me, but you know the score, the relatives and neighbours will be looking for a funeral in the Church. That's grand I won't know or care and off with them.

    It is the hoolie after that is important to me. And I have struct instrictions (lol) about that and it doesn't involve a pub AT ALL. Has to be civilised. We have had many a late night laughing about it all.

    Celebrating the life is important. But at the end of the day, the bereavement affects those closest. Anyway who cares. I hope they have a great day.

    At my fkn expense lol.


  • #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    splinter65 wrote: »
    It doesn’t say anything in there about making funeral arrangements legally enforceable.

    I'm not entirely sure what your looking for...


    "The person who has legal authority to make funeral arrangements is the Executor"

    "An executor is legally in charge of making a deceased person's funeral arrangements. The executor must carry out the funeral instructions provided in the person's will. For example, a person may direct cremation, burial in a family cemetery, or a specific memorial service."

    ...I'm certainly no authority, I'm only repeating what I googled. If you've found something else please share.


  • #60
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    More here...(yes UK is unlikely to be different here but I'm open to correction)

    https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individuals/contesting_wills_probate/burial_disputes/


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  • #61
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Apologies, a blunt and simplistic choice of words and I can see how they would be hurtful to someone in your situation. I was wondering why many famous people do not follow through with their expressed rejection of religion when it comes to their funeral arrangements but I can certainly understand why other considerations should rightly override such 'ideological consistency' in many cases.

    Well I guess famous people have loved ones too and those loved ones are more important than the general public.


  • #62
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,836 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Not sure what is 'inflicting' about a humanist funeral. A couple of the best funerals I've attended have been humanist - moving, memorable, inclusive, musical, driven by direct family - what's not to like?

    I may be embroidering an interview I only dimly remember. Maeve was certainly clear she wanted a traditional Catholic funeral. Pretty sure her brother William would prefer it that way anyway:P


  • #63
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    beauf wrote: »
    I'm not entirely sure what your looking for...


    "The person who has legal authority to make funeral arrangements is the Executor"

    "An executor is legally in charge of making a deceased person's funeral arrangements. The executor must carry out the funeral instructions provided in the person's will. For example, a person may direct cremation, burial in a family cemetery, or a specific memorial service."

    ...I'm certainly no authority, I'm only repeating what I googled. If you've found something else please share.

    More evidence that few people posting here have very much or any actual experience of people dying.
    Do you imagine that if I ring the undertaker tonight, tell him that my loved one has died and I need his services that he says” well I’m going to need some proof first that you’re an executor”? Really??


  • #64
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    beauf wrote: »
    More here...(yes UK is unlikely to be different here but I'm open to correction)

    https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individuals/contesting_wills_probate/burial_disputes/

    You do realise that funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically? How can that happen if the undertaker can’t take instructions without the go ahead from the executor of the will?
    What if there’s no will?
    What if the executors not contactable???
    In the UK it’s typically 3 weeks.


  • #65
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    splinter65 wrote: »
    More evidence that few people posting here have very much or any actual experience of people dying.
    Do you imagine that if I ring the undertaker tonight, tell him that my loved one has died and I need his services that he says” well I’m going to need some proof first that you’re an executor”? Really??

    I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word evidence.

    I'll like the way you've countered with absolutely nothing. It's very convincing.

    You've pretty much ignored everything posted. So not much point engaging any further is there.


  • #66
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Not sure what is 'inflicting' about a humanist funeral. A couple of the best funerals I've attended have been humanist - moving, memorable, inclusive, musical, driven by direct family - what's not to like?

    Non-religious funerals don't necessarily need to be humanist, my dad's certainly wasn't. Nothing against humanists and it certainly helps to have someone help with organising the ceremony but a funeral can be whatever send off you choose it to be. I think it is all too easy to revert to the solemnity of a traditional religious funeral without the actual religion which isn't much of an improvement. To me, wakes are the better tradition, mingling and telling tales about person in life. Leaving a glass of whisky on the coffin and sharing a few words with the recently departed. Laughing and crying in equal measure. That kind of thing.


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  • #67
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You do realise that funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically?

    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?


  • #68
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?

    Any funeral I've been to or organised has had the removal the next day and burial/ cremation the day after. So in theory it starts within 24 hours


  • #69
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I don't get this obsession with other peoples funerals.

    Never mind deciding you know what's best for people you don't even know.


  • #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    smacl wrote: »
    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?

    Same here normally at least three days minimum in my experience, regardless of the day the person died.

    Longer in one case due to a post mortem being required due to the sudden aspect of the person's death at the reasonably young age of 41.


  • #71
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Can you be buried in a Christian graveyard without working with a priest/ going through the whole funeral mass spiel?

    Are there graveyards for atheists?

    Genuine question, I'm completely ignorant on this.


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  • #72
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    smacl wrote: »
    Do you have a source to back up that assertion as it certainly hasn't been the case in my experience?

    Same here. They've all been 3-4 days and many after a weekend.
    All had their legal affairs sorted out in advance, months if not a year or two in advance. In the ones I was involved the funeral arrangements were already known, and it was only minor details that needed to be sorted. People were able to travel from abroad home. There were a couple of deaths unexpected, and they also took a good few days.


  • #73
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Can you be buried in a Christian graveyard without working with a priest/ going through the whole funeral mass spiel?

    Are there graveyards for atheists?

    Genuine question, I'm completely ignorant on this.

    I've only been to cremations not burials where there was no mass, and no priest. But it was in a christian graveyard. The ashes were buried though. I've also been to cremations were the priest attended the burial of the ashes. The burial of the ashes happened a good many days after the cremation in the ones I've been at.

    I expect there's loads of variations depending on the families wishes.


  • #74
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,528 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    beauf wrote: »
    More here...(yes UK is unlikely to be different here but I'm open to correction)

    https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individuals/contesting_wills_probate/burial_disputes/

    The big big difference is that in the UK, funerals often don't take place for weeks. As I already pointed out before your post.

    Here, the person is planted before anyone thinks about looking for a will, and there's nothing in a will that can force or prevent any particular type of funeral anyway.

    J Mysterio wrote: »
    Can you be buried in a Christian graveyard without working with a priest/ going through the whole funeral mass spiel?

    Yes, most graveyards are local authority owned and accept all. If it's church owned, then that's up to the church man. A problem in Donegal as there's no local authority owned graveyard there.

    This country is so fecking brainwashed that there are loads of people who can't even conceive of the fact that all of the major milestones in life don't need the involvement of a church in any way whatsoever if you don't want it. Some people at my wedding didn't know that civil marriage existed in Ireland!

    Scrap the cap!



  • #75
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Anna Shapely Udder wrote: »
    Any funeral I've been to or organised has had the removal the next day and burial/ cremation the day after. So in theory it starts within 24 hours

    You might want to explain how removal day after death and funeral day after that fits into 24 hours from time of death?

    Myself and my wife are at an age where we've quite a few friends losing parents in recent years and also live on a small road with elderly neighbours that has had its share of deaths. Assuming no PM, the usual pattern seems to be someone dies, it is announced in rip.ie, the reposal at the house is next day earliest, funeral is next day after that at the earliest. I don't think you could organise a cremation in a shorter time frame, bearing in mind that the crematorium require either medical papers filled out by the attending GP or doctor who was attending the deceased in their last illness or corners cert in the case of a post mortem. See https://www.mountjerome.ie/?content=frequently-asked-questions


  • #76
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    You might want to explain how removal day after death and funeral day after that fits into 24 hours from time of death?

    Myself and my wife are at an age where we've quite a few friends losing parents in recent years and also live on a small road with elderly neighbours that has had its share of deaths. Assuming no PM, the usual pattern seems to be someone dies, it is announced in rip.ie, the reposal at the house is next day earliest, funeral is next day after that at the earliest. I don't think you could organise a cremation in a shorter time frame, bearing in mind that the crematorium require either medical papers filled out by the attending GP or doctor who was attending the deceased in their last illness or corners cert in the case of a post mortem. See https://www.mountjerome.ie/?content=frequently-asked-questions

    An early morning death makes it quicker. Plus , I said the process starts with the removal 24 hours approximately after death.

    Depends how you look at it.


  • #77
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Anna Shapely Udder wrote: »
    I honestly can't see why people are worked up about it.
    If as you believe being dead then there's nothing , you won't know about it and won't care.

    It is a simple matter of respect. Having a religious ceremony for someone who wasn't religious is an open display of disrespect for their choices in life. The same would be true of refusing a religious ceremony for someone who was religious. While this clearly doesn't affect the dead person it can significantly affecting those grieving.

    It is also worth remembering that at a time where most people in this country no longer go to church on a regular basis, the priest will in all probability be a stranger to the deceased in most cases. Personally, this is the last person I'd want at a funeral for a loved one.


  • #78
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Anna Shapely Udder wrote: »
    An early morning death makes it quicker. Plus , I said the process starts with the removal 24 hours approximately after death.

    You responded to what I'd consider to be a specious claim here that "funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically" with "in theory it starts within 24 hours" which I'd read as being in agreement with that claim.
    Depends how you look at it.

    I look at it that there are twenty four hours in a day and the funeral is at earliest two days from time of death in the vast majority of cases in this country, more usually three or four days.


  • #79
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The big big difference is that in the UK, funerals often don't take place for weeks. As I already pointed out before your post.

    Here, the person is planted before anyone thinks about looking for a will, and there's nothing in a will that can force or prevent any particular type of funeral anyway.


    Yes, most graveyards are local authority owned and accept all. If it's church owned, then that's up to the church man. A problem in Donegal as there's no local authority owned graveyard there.

    This country is so fecking brainwashed that there are loads of people who can't even conceive of the fact that all of the major milestones in life don't need the involvement of a church in any way whatsoever if you don't want it. Some people at my wedding didn't know that civil marriage existed in Ireland!

    I know I've been to UK funerals. The bit I posted was simply a good list of order of legality. It's wasn't a time line of burial. It seems you can take out an interim injunction to prevent the burial going ahead or there can be an order exhume in extreme cases. We seem very hasty in Ireland.

    I'm our area there a shortage of space. So quite a few funerals have used the space in Church of Ireland graveyards and it hasn't needed attendance by a COI representative and obviously some of the ones I've had no organised religion what so ever.

    Usually (not always yes) people are sick for a while before dying. Never been involved in a dispute about a burial. There are always people who try to stir trouble though. Estranged family etc. Final chance to get a fog in I guess. That's pretty much what this thread is except about people you don't know.

    As far as I know last year was first year that civil weddings out numbered church weddings in Ireland. So far I've only attended the afters of non church weddings. It will get a lot more common. There aren't enough priests anymore and the average age is 70 or something.


  • #80
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    splinter65 wrote: »
    More evidence that few people posting here have very much or any actual experience of people dying.
    Do you imagine that if I ring the undertaker tonight, tell him that my loved one has died and I need his services that he says” well I’m going to need some proof first that you’re an executor”? Really??

    For anyone who has died suddenly, e.g. heart attack, accident etc... you'll need a coroners cert (source). Given your previous assertion "that funerals in Ireland take place within 24 hours of death typically" I suspect you have little or no actual experience of this yourself and are instead going with blind speculation that supports your preferred line of argument. Given your own interest in evidence above, perhaps you could provide some to support your own position?


  • #81
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    smacl wrote: »
    It is a simple matter of respect. Having a religious ceremony for someone who wasn't religious is an open display of disrespect for their choices in life. The same would be true of refusing a religious ceremony for someone who was religious. While this clearly doesn't affect the dead person it can significantly affecting those grieving.

    Usually it those grieving who make those choices. So it's a problem that solves itself.
    smacl wrote: »
    It is also worth remembering that at a time where most people in this country no longer go to church on a regular basis, the priest will in all probability be a stranger to the deceased in most cases. Personally, this is the last person I'd want at a funeral for a loved one.

    You won't know the people in a humanist ceremony or the undertakers either. Not that it matters.

    Vast majority of time at funerals is with friends and family, neighbours, usually remembering the good times you shared with the deceased.

    Often the funeral is after a long illness and for me at least the funeral was only a small part in someone passing. You can be a year or more before and afterwards sorting things out.

    This focus on a funeral which is at most an hour or two in the middle of all that, though highly stressful itself. Is a bit myopic. Imo.


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  • #82
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Theres a common theme in these threads of disrespecting other people choices and imposing opinions and beliefs on others. Very ironic.

    Boards is far more judgemental and not inclusive of other choices and vindictive especially when people are having a hard time then it used to be.

    It's not really about discussion and sharing ideas it's about giving sometime a verbal kicking at every opportunity.


  • #83
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,075 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    Re point in OP about secular funerals being soulless affairs.

    Not about anyone famous, well he was a legend in his own lunch time.

    My dad, (who'd have been 77 today!) was adamant he wanted no religious ceremony, so we abided by his wishes. The celebrant did a fantastic job, he was juggling between my two brothers who believe, my sister who doesn't believe in God, but some spiritual after life, and me who thinks it's a big full stop when your time is done and he made huge efforts to include us all and nod to all our beliefs, he was great. And I think we all, including my two brothers, got more out of his personalised funeral than the Catholic service my mum had when she died.

    The time constraints relating to how quickly the Irish bury their dead that have been discussed in the thread were not an issue for me in the UK, and maybe that's why the celebrant did such a good job, he sat down and chatted with us all for over an hour, the week before the funeral.

    Saying all that, regardless of my faith, or lack of (which may or may not be disturbing) if my wife, who goes to church occasionally, and still believes, wanted to give me the full religious bells and whistles when I die, and invite the pope to do the service, I couldn't care less, because I'll be dead!

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • #84
    MarkY91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,068 ✭✭✭MarkY91


    harr wrote: »
    A former work colleague of mine was was very anti religion of any sort especially the Catholic Church and was adamant his funeral was to be non secular when he died. He passed away in his 60,s and his family went against his wishes and had the full catholic ceremony. I think it was his wife who did in fact go against some members of his family who tried to go with his wishes. It was a wrong thing to do just because it made his wife feel better. The local parish priest at the time had convinced her it was the right thing to do..
    So I think a lot of people leave it up to family members to deal with the funeral side of things after they have passed.

    I get both sides. Im an atheist. I'd probably rather a non religious funeral but at the end of the day..I'll be dead, I'm never gonna know. So whatever makes the antendees cope better would do me.


  • #85
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »
    ..., I couldn't care less, because I'll be dead!

    I'd be exactly the same. What ever is easiest for them. I think as people experience how much less stressful a non religious funeral/ burial is it will become more common. I have no problem with people who like the full church thing if that's their choice.


  • #86
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    beauf wrote: »
    Usually it those grieving who make those choices. So it's a problem that solves itself.

    You'd think so but families have a habit of disagreement in times of stress. In our case it was pressure from family members who saw my father very rarely to include a religious aspect to the funeral. Having been battered by the clergy as a child, for that most heinous of sins of being left handed, my father had no use for the church whatsoever. There was no way on earth myself and my sister were going to let some grubby little priest pontificate at his funeral to appease some God bothering relatives. Maybe we're a particularly fractious crew but I rather doubt it.

    It is a very stressful time, and while in my case I was lucky to have a like-minded sister and a wife who is fantastic at managing during a crisis, I'd guess it would be difficult not to bend to pressure if you were trying to organise a funeral solo. Funeral directors upselling coffins springs to mind as another example. You really need your wits about you.


  • #87
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    beauf wrote: »
    This focus on a funeral which is at most an hour or two in the middle of all that, though highly stressful itself. Is a bit myopic. Imo.

    Absolutely. It is what goes on before and afterwards that is so much more important.


  • #88
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The speed at which Irish funerals happen really should be slowed down. There is no reason for it based on the climate and whilst it might tend to actually be more like 48 hours rather than 24, that really doesn't make a whole lot of difference when you have family around the globe to contact, them to process the information, raid the piggy bank, book a flight, find their passport, find someone to fetch them from the airport.

    It's completely daft and there is no need to have things happen so quickly.


  • #89
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robinph wrote: »
    The speed at which Irish funerals happen really should be slowed down. There is no reason for it based on the climate and whilst it might tend to actually be more like 48 hours rather than 24, that really doesn't make a whole lot of difference when you have family around the globe to contact, them to process the information, raid the piggy bank, book a flight, find their passport, find someone to fetch them from the airport.

    It's completely daft and there is no need to have things happen so quickly.

    I'm not sure if there's any obligation here or whether it is just a function of tradition and perhaps the preference of the undertaking industry. While 3-4 days seems typical, I've been to an Irish funeral that took place a week later, albeit there was a post mortem involved.


  • #90
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,528 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    smacl wrote: »
    It is a very stressful time, and while in my case I was lucky to have a like-minded sister and a wife who is fantastic at managing during a crisis, I'd guess it would be difficult not to bend to pressure if you were trying to organise a funeral solo. Funeral directors upselling coffins springs to mind as another example. You really need your wits about you.

    Seems to me the ideal thing to do is have it all arranged and paid for beforehand. Then your loved ones have a lot less to worry about.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    smacl wrote: »
    I'm not sure if there's any obligation here or whether it is just a function of tradition and perhaps the preference of the undertaking industry. While 3-4 days seems typical, I've been to an Irish funeral that took place a week later, albeit there was a post mortem involved.

    May well be linked to the fact also that people generally get three days bereavement leave at their employers discretion and unless your willing to take unpaid leave you get it done within the three days.


  • #92
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    The first funeral I was in anyway involved in organising was my grandmother's exactly 20 years ago this month. My abiding memory was that the Priest continually got her name wrong. This woman went to Mass every single day of her adult life. Did everything the Catholic Church expected of her. And the Priest couldn't be bothered to concentrate on getting her name right. I don't know who the Mrs O'Brien he thought was in that coffin was, but it sure as ****e wasn't my grandmother.
    I found that disrespectful. Her children found it upsetting.


    Myself and my sister organised my Father's funeral last Oct - as in we told the undertaker what we thought he would have wanted. My bother was the Executor but he was out of the country and although my parents were still married they had been separated 36 years. Even the undertaker we used was the one his family(parents/siblings) had used even though it wasn't the most convenient for us or for where he had lived.
    His cremation took place 4 days after his death -our decision as we wanted to give people time to travel.
    My sister handled the religious aspect of it (although it turns out she hadn't a notion and I kept having to say things like 'aren't there supposed to be readings at the funeral mass?' - I made it clear that I would be at the mass but would not 'participate' (as I had agreed with the bishop when I defected from the RCC :P) so my siblings, nieces, and granddaughter did the church bit. I did shoulder his coffin into and out of the church.

    3 years ago my first cousin died after a long battle with cancer - she had clearly laid down her wishes for a non-religious funeral and paid for everything in advance. Her actual funeral was a nightmare. Her children were adamant everything should proceed as she had planned it. Her parents wanted a traditional Catholic funeral. Her parents were demanding a funeral mass, her children said have a mass but her coffin stays in the funeral home as she instructed.
    In the end it was the undertakers (same one's we used for my Dad) who interceded on the side of her adult children. There was a mass - but the coffin wasn't 'removed' to the church. Few few attended the Mass. Her non religious wake was packed to the rafters.

    2 years ago my great uncle died at the grand age of 98. A life long Atheist his funeral (which he had planned and paid for in advance) was a stripped bare, functional, occasion. He made it clear there was to be no 'tosh and nonsense' - and there wasn't. He had no children, his wife is severely disabled and has full blown dementia so she didn't attend. But he was a popular figure in the small West Cork community he had retired to back in the 80s and neighbours for miles around gathered to say goodbye. And yes, they were confused by the lack of religiosity but 'got it'. It was the funeral of a man who didn't believe in either a god or an afterlife but had lived his life with the verve of someone who had survived active duty in a world war. In his eulogy I spoke of how he wanted no overblown ceremony to mark his passing as he wished his passing to be quietly marked by the left alive as the deaths of so many of his comrades in the RAF had been. He lived, he fought great evil, he survived, he enjoyed his time, he ate cake. The End.

    My son is my next of kin and he knows there is to be no religiosity at my funeral - as he is both unbaptised and stubborn it is unlikely he would bow to pressure. It's important to me. I don't care what they do with my remains but if anyone tries to 'bring me back into the fold' after I am dead I'll find a way to haunt their asses for eternity.

    Funerals are for the living yes- but they are to remember the life of the person who just died. In my case that is a person who has knocked heads with the RCC my whole life and went to a great deal of trouble to get my 'membership' revoked. To involve that organisation in my funeral would be to invalidate the choices I made in my life. Feck that.


  • #93
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    May well be linked to the fact also that people generally get three days bereavement leave at their employers discretion and unless your willing to take unpaid leave you get it done within the three days.

    You don't have to take all the days in sequence immediately though.


  • #94
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    There's been few occasions more uncomfortable in my 38 years on this earth than having to sit through a religious funeral for someone who was actively hostile to religion. Shows a tremendous lack of respect for the dead person.


  • #95
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    ..... To involve that organisation in my funeral would be to invalidate the choices I made in my life. ...

    Who is left to involve that organisation? So its not likely to happen anyway.
    There probably won't be any priests left by then either.


  • #96
    Kate2293
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭Kate2293


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »

    I know secular funerals can be pretty 'soulless' affairs, but if you don't fancy that why not skip the whole folderol and have yourself buried/cremated without ceremony, like David Bowie did?

    I would strongly disagree with secular funerals being soulless. The first funeral I was involved with organising was my father's this last December. He considered himself a pagan and had no interest in any Catholic ceremonies. We were left with no instruction on what he wanted, but knew that any religious aspect was not to be included. We had him cremated, with a service at the crematorium. The service was filled with music that he loved, poems that meant something to us and him, and speeches (for lack of a better term) from those who really knew and cared for him, not just a random priest who was available that day. It was a beautiful ceremony. Personal, respectful, and not in any way drawn out and dull like mass usually is....


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  • #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    robinph wrote: »
    You don't have to take all the days in sequence immediately though.

    Depends on your employers, we don't have statutory bereavement/compassionate leave

    Of course most employers/managers will be flexible, but some aren't.


  • #98
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Depends on your employers, we don't have statutory bereavement/compassionate leave

    Of course most employers/managers will be flexible, but some aren't.

    Some have to contiguous and immediately, which isn't always practical as you often need to take random days here and there afterwards to sort out other issues.


  • #99
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    robinph wrote: »
    The speed at which Irish funerals happen really should be slowed down. There is no reason for it based on the climate and whilst it might tend to actually be more like 48 hours rather than 24, that really doesn't make a whole lot of difference when you have family around the globe to contact, them to process the information, raid the piggy bank, book a flight, find their passport, find someone to fetch them from the airport.

    It's completely daft and there is no need to have things happen so quickly.

    The 48 timeline is traditional but it’s not compulsory. You wouldn’t want to stop people from making the arrangements that best suit them.
    The UK tradition of leaving it for a couple or three weeks is too dragged out, and the fact that they consider funerals to be almost private functions is odd to us, but I wouldn’t dream of suggesting they do otherwise.


  • #100
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Seems to me the ideal thing to do is have it all arranged and paid for beforehand. Then your loved ones have a lot less to worry about.

    I know several people who have done that, but they are people with no close relations.


  • #101
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Seems to me the ideal thing to do is have it all arranged and paid for beforehand. Then your loved ones have a lot less to worry about.

    Given you know not the hour, it seems reasonable to put some money aside for it and some general instructions, but the specifics are prone to change over time. Maybe do a little video in advance thanking everyone for coming and apologising for not being more chatty. And of course informing the audience that if there was a priest present he should be promptly ejected :pac:


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