Religious funerals for prominent nonbelievers

Bannasidhe

The first funeral I was in anyway involved in organising was my grandmother's exactly 20 years ago this month. My abiding memory was that the Priest continually got her name wrong. This woman went to Mass every single day of her adult life. Did everything the Catholic Church expected of her. And the Priest couldn't be bothered to concentrate on getting her name right. I don't know who the Mrs O'Brien he thought was in that coffin was, but it sure as ****e wasn't my grandmother.
I found that disrespectful. Her children found it upsetting.


Myself and my sister organised my Father's funeral last Oct - as in we told the undertaker what we thought he would have wanted. My bother was the Executor but he was out of the country and although my parents were still married they had been separated 36 years. Even the undertaker we used was the one his family(parents/siblings) had used even though it wasn't the most convenient for us or for where he had lived.
His cremation took place 4 days after his death -our decision as we wanted to give people time to travel.
My sister handled the religious aspect of it (although it turns out she hadn't a notion and I kept having to say things like 'aren't there supposed to be readings at the funeral mass?' - I made it clear that I would be at the mass but would not 'participate' (as I had agreed with the bishop when I defected from the RCC :P) so my siblings, nieces, and granddaughter did the church bit. I did shoulder his coffin into and out of the church.

3 years ago my first cousin died after a long battle with cancer - she had clearly laid down her wishes for a non-religious funeral and paid for everything in advance. Her actual funeral was a nightmare. Her children were adamant everything should proceed as she had planned it. Her parents wanted a traditional Catholic funeral. Her parents were demanding a funeral mass, her children said have a mass but her coffin stays in the funeral home as she instructed.
In the end it was the undertakers (same one's we used for my Dad) who interceded on the side of her adult children. There was a mass - but the coffin wasn't 'removed' to the church. Few few attended the Mass. Her non religious wake was packed to the rafters.

2 years ago my great uncle died at the grand age of 98. A life long Atheist his funeral (which he had planned and paid for in advance) was a stripped bare, functional, occasion. He made it clear there was to be no 'tosh and nonsense' - and there wasn't. He had no children, his wife is severely disabled and has full blown dementia so she didn't attend. But he was a popular figure in the small West Cork community he had retired to back in the 80s and neighbours for miles around gathered to say goodbye. And yes, they were confused by the lack of religiosity but 'got it'. It was the funeral of a man who didn't believe in either a god or an afterlife but had lived his life with the verve of someone who had survived active duty in a world war. In his eulogy I spoke of how he wanted no overblown ceremony to mark his passing as he wished his passing to be quietly marked by the left alive as the deaths of so many of his comrades in the RAF had been. He lived, he fought great evil, he survived, he enjoyed his time, he ate cake. The End.

My son is my next of kin and he knows there is to be no religiosity at my funeral - as he is both unbaptised and stubborn it is unlikely he would bow to pressure. It's important to me. I don't care what they do with my remains but if anyone tries to 'bring me back into the fold' after I am dead I'll find a way to haunt their asses for eternity.

Funerals are for the living yes- but they are to remember the life of the person who just died. In my case that is a person who has knocked heads with the RCC my whole life and went to a great deal of trouble to get my 'membership' revoked. To involve that organisation in my funeral would be to invalidate the choices I made in my life. Feck that.

robinph

DubInMeath wrote: »

May well be linked to the fact also that people generally get three days bereavement leave at their employers discretion and unless your willing to take unpaid leave you get it done within the three days.

You don't have to take all the days in sequence immediately though.

lazygal

There's been few occasions more uncomfortable in my 38 years on this earth than having to sit through a religious funeral for someone who was actively hostile to religion. Shows a tremendous lack of respect for the dead person.

beauf

Bannasidhe wrote: »

..... To involve that organisation in my funeral would be to invalidate the choices I made in my life. ...

Who is left to involve that organisation? So its not likely to happen anyway.
There probably won't be any priests left by then either.

Kate2293

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I know secular funerals can be pretty 'soulless' affairs, but if you don't fancy that why not skip the whole folderol and have yourself buried/cremated without ceremony, like David Bowie did?

I would strongly disagree with secular funerals being soulless. The first funeral I was involved with organising was my father's this last December. He considered himself a pagan and had no interest in any Catholic ceremonies. We were left with no instruction on what he wanted, but knew that any religious aspect was not to be included. We had him cremated, with a service at the crematorium. The service was filled with music that he loved, poems that meant something to us and him, and speeches (for lack of a better term) from those who really knew and cared for him, not just a random priest who was available that day. It was a beautiful ceremony. Personal, respectful, and not in any way drawn out and dull like mass usually is....

robinph

robinph wrote: »

You don't have to take all the days in sequence immediately though.

Depends on your employers, we don't have statutory bereavement/compassionate leave

Of course most employers/managers will be flexible, but some aren't.

beauf

DubInMeath wrote: »

Depends on your employers, we don't have statutory bereavement/compassionate leave

Of course most employers/managers will be flexible, but some aren't.

Some have to contiguous and immediately, which isn't always practical as you often need to take random days here and there afterwards to sort out other issues.

splinter65

robinph wrote: »

The speed at which Irish funerals happen really should be slowed down. There is no reason for it based on the climate and whilst it might tend to actually be more like 48 hours rather than 24, that really doesn't make a whole lot of difference when you have family around the globe to contact, them to process the information, raid the piggy bank, book a flight, find their passport, find someone to fetch them from the airport.

It's completely daft and there is no need to have things happen so quickly.

The 48 timeline is traditional but it’s not compulsory. You wouldn’t want to stop people from making the arrangements that best suit them.
The UK tradition of leaving it for a couple or three weeks is too dragged out, and the fact that they consider funerals to be almost private functions is odd to us, but I wouldn’t dream of suggesting they do otherwise.

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Seems to me the ideal thing to do is have it all arranged and paid for beforehand. Then your loved ones have a lot less to worry about.

I know several people who have done that, but they are people with no close relations.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Seems to me the ideal thing to do is have it all arranged and paid for beforehand. Then your loved ones have a lot less to worry about.

Given you know not the hour, it seems reasonable to put some money aside for it and some general instructions, but the specifics are prone to change over time. Maybe do a little video in advance thanking everyone for coming and apologising for not being more chatty. And of course informing the audience that if there was a priest present he should be promptly ejected :pac:

Loafing Oaf

lazygal wrote: »

There's been few occasions more uncomfortable in my 38 years on this earth than having to sit through a religious funeral for someone who was actively hostile to religion. Shows a tremendous lack of respect for the dead person.

Do you think respect arises in the other direction too? If someone who has loudly and publicly rejected religion in their life requests a religious funeral at the end, should they not at least consider whether this is fair to the clergyman who will be conducting the service?

lazygal

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Do you think respect arises in the other direction too? If someone who has loudly and publicly rejected religion in their life requests a religious funeral at the end, should they not at least consider whether this is fair to the clergyman who will be conducting the service?

Absolutely it works both ways.

Mark Hamill

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Funerals are for the living yes- but they are to remember the life of the person who just died.

Exactly, if you aren't respecting the person themselves by having the funeral the way they wanted, then who and what exactly are you mourning? If the funeral doesn't reflect the deceased then you are not mourning their life and you are being disrespectful of them and all of their other family and friends who shared in that part of their life.

igCorcaigh

lazygal wrote: »

Absolutely it works both ways.

It absolutely does, and makes me think why I haven't been planning my own funeral matters. Bit unfair to everyone really.

Does anyone have any guidance of where I even start with this?

I don't have any form of insurance, but starting a new job soon that includes life assurance.

is_that_so

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Exactly, if you aren't respecting the person themselves by having the funeral the way they wanted, then who and what exactly are you mourning? If the funeral doesn't reflect the deceased then you are not mourning their life and you are being disrespectful of them and all of their other family and friends who shared in that part of their life.

The dead are gone and don't care what we do. Funerals are a mixture of what the living need and want and what we imagine the dead wanted, but they are for the living only. In my own experience you get a sense of how those close to the deceased wish to proceed and you go with that, with no judgement. Religious funerals offer great rituals, which are comforting at that time.

igCorcaigh

is_that_so wrote: »

Religious funerals offer great rituals, which are comforting at that time.

To a limited extent.
I don't think the repeated rosaries at a removal serve much purpose to most of the bereaved, even the religious ones.

Mark Hamill

is_that_so wrote: »

The dead are gone and don't care what we do. Funerals are a mixture of what the living need and want and what we imagine the dead wanted, but they are for the living only. In my own experience you get a sense of how those close to the deceased wish to proceed and you go with that, with no judgement. Religious funerals offer great rituals, which are comforting at that time.

Isn't it funny how this has always been presented in terms of giving a non-theist a religious funeral, as that's nice for the religious living? What about the other way around?
What if a very religious person dies, they have one next of kin, maybe a somewhat estranged son or daughter, who has no religion. Now, the deceased was an active part of a strong religious community, who want to follow the religious persons wishes. Is it really ok if the estranged son or daughter overrides that and gives them the funeral that suits the son/daughters a-religious views? What if the child had converted to a different religion, would it be ok then? An estranged Muslim-convert child of an actively devout Catholic has a Muslim funeral for a parent they hadn't seen in 10 years, or vice-versa? It's very easy (and frankly cliched at this point) to say "put up and shut up" when its an atheists wishes who are ignored in favour of a christians.


If the funeral doesn't reflect the life and wishes of the deceased, then it is purely be for the benefit of the subset of the living that wanted the deceased' funeral to follow their own whims. If you don't respect them enough to follow someones funeral wishes, then what are even mourning at the funeral?

smacl

is_that_so wrote: »

Religious funerals offer great rituals, which are comforting at that time.

Only if the family and those closest to the deceased are religious. In other cases I'd personally find them miserable and there to serve the church as much as the family of the deceased. My opinion is that people tend to attend funerals out of a sense of duty as much as of care and disappear afterwards. I think you do far more for the grieving with a visit and a chat in the following weeks and months.

is_that_so

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Isn't it funny how this has always been presented in terms of giving a non-theist a religious funeral, as that's nice for the religious living? What about the other way around?
What if a very religious person dies, they have one next of kin, maybe a somewhat estranged son or daughter, who has no religion. Now, the deceased was an active part of a strong religious community, who want to follow the religious persons wishes. Is it really ok if the estranged son or daughter overrides that and gives them the funeral that suits the son/daughters a-religious views? What if the child had converted to a different religion, would it be ok then? An estranged Muslim-convert child of an actively devout Catholic has a Muslim funeral for a parent they hadn't seen in 10 years, or vice-versa? It's very easy (and frankly cliched at this point) to say "put up and shut up" when its an atheists wishes who are ignored in favour of a christians.


If the funeral doesn't reflect the life and wishes of the deceased, then it is purely be for the benefit of the subset of the living that wanted the deceased' funeral to follow their own whims. If you don't respect them enough to follow someones funeral wishes, then what are even mourning at the funeral?

As I said it's all about the living and that response as clearly articulated in this. You seem to have a lot of thoughts on it. I'm afraid I don't, beyond you decide on a ceremony, do it and move on with your mourning. If people want to cause family rifts over it I have no sympathy. As for the estranged well being blunt it's their problem. As the remaining living part of that rift they need to be an adult and pay their respects.

is_that_so

smacl wrote: »

Only if the family and those closest to the deceased are religious. In other cases I'd personally find them miserable and there to serve the church as much as the family of the deceased. My opinion is that people tend to attend funerals out of a sense of duty as much as of care and disappear afterwards. I think you do far more for the grieving with a visit and a chat in the following weeks and months.

Yes, it's a ritual but it's not about you unless you are family. If that's what they've decided you respect it. I like the remembrance efforts made and the selection of materials chosen to read as they can reflect the person.

is_that_so

igCorcaigh wrote: »

To a limited extent.
I don't think the repeated rosaries at a removal serve much purpose to most of the bereaved, even the religious ones.

Removal is just that, a short brief ceremony and a ritual, it's what comes after that in theory offers comfort, although I'm no fan of it myself.

smacl

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If you don't respect them enough to follow someones funeral wishes, then what are even mourning at the funeral?

People are mourning their own loss. If, like me, you consider one aspect of many religions to be a denial that death is truly terminal, a religious person giving a non-religious a religious funeral is simply an extension of that denial. You might see that as disrespectful and nonsense and I might agree, but if it gives those involved the solace they require without upsetting anyone else, what of it? The problem arises when you've got conflicting beliefs among those involved where my take on it would be to go with the wishes of those most deeply affected by the loss while trying not to trample too much on the wishes of the rest. It can be a real ball ache and I reckon very often is.

Loafing Oaf

Here's an interesting article on how this issue is handled in Italy
https://www.italymagazine.com/italy/religion/catholic-weekly-justifies-pavarotti-funeral
Apparently denying a religious funeral to those who reject the church is a thing there, something I've never heard off in Ireland

Seemingly some of the more-Catholic-than-the-Pope readers of a religious magazine were up in arms about the decision to grant Pavarotti full honours in death, despite him being divorced.
The magazine director suggested that Church authorities "probably judged that not giving a religious funeral to a personality so prominent on the world stage would have been an even bigger scandal", which suggests the Church would be even less inclined to deny a Catholic funeral to a bigshot atheist than to an ordinary joe...

lazygal

igCorcaigh wrote: »

It absolutely does, and makes me think why I haven't been planning my own funeral matters. Bit unfair to everyone really.

Does anyone have any guidance of where I even start with this?

I don't have any form of insurance, but starting a new job soon that includes life assurance.

Your next of kin are responsible for disposal of your body. There is no legal requirement to have a funeral of any sort, ritual etc. The body has to be legally buried or cremated and the death registered. That's it. One of the more morbid reasons we got married was for these next of kin rights. My parents would default to a Catholic funeral, no doubt about it, if I wasn't married and they had responsibility for it. We had a humanist wedding so a humanist funeral is the way we'd probably go, my husband wouldn't care too much but I would. I would prefer cremation, as would he. I don't want a grave or headstone.

igCorcaigh

lazygal wrote: »

Your next of kin are responsible for disposal of your body. There is no legal requirement to have a funeral of any sort, ritual etc. The body has to be legally buried or cremated and the death registered. That's it. One of the more morbid reasons we got married was for these next of kin rights. My parents would default to a Catholic funeral, no doubt about it, if I wasn't married and they had responsibility for it. We had a humanist wedding so a humanist funeral is the way we'd probably go, my husband wouldn't care too much but I would. I would prefer cremation, as would he. I don't want a grave or headstone.

Yes, thank you.

My dad is a "put me in a bag and bury me in the back garden" person. As I would be, if I had a back garden.

Yet I know the default will happen, unless I make explicit plans for it.

Just wondering how I go about it. I'm 46 and my parents are still alive.

is_that_so

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Yes, thank you.

My dad is a "put me in a bag and bury me in the back garden" person. As I would be, if I had a back garden.

Yet I know the default will happen, unless I make explicit plans for it.

Just wondering how I go about it. I'm 46 and my parents are still alive.

I think you have a conversation about it and drill down into what they'd like, especially on the burial v cremation options. It can be done in a light-hearted way around selections of music and the like! Also a good idea now to check with any siblings on their views, as such stuff can rear its head in dramatic ways when people do die.

beauf

igCorcaigh wrote: »

To a limited extent.
I don't think the repeated rosaries at a removal serve much purpose to most of the bereaved, even the religious ones.

That's really about does religion or ceremony or prayer have any purpose. Does a funeral have any purpose. Maybe we should just say goodbye at the hospitial and leave it at that.

On reading about it the rosaries is not intended as vain repetition but meditation using familiar words or prayers. As such there are lots of different forms of this in different cultures and/OR religions.

https://genius.com/Monty-python-holy-hand-grenade-of-antioch-annotated

As for funerals,

"The funeral usually includes a ritual through which the corpse receives a final ..disposition.[2] Depending on culture and religion..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral

beauf

Really you decided what you want. If you leave it to others, then I think you don't respect your own beliefs.

My own attitude is if you weren't explicit, and your next of kin really wants something, then I see no reason to to object myself.

beauf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Here's an interesting article on how this issue is handled in Italy
https://www.italymagazine.com/italy/religion/catholic-weekly-justifies-pavarotti-funeral
Apparently denying a religious funeral to those who reject the church is a thing there, something I've never heard off in Ireland

Seemingly some of the more-Catholic-than-the-Pope readers of a religious magazine were up in arms about the decision to grant Pavarotti full honours in death, despite him being divorced.
The magazine director suggested that Church authorities "probably judged that not giving a religious funeral to a personality so prominent on the world stage would have been an even bigger scandal", which suggests the Church would be even less inclined to deny a Catholic funeral to a bigshot atheist than to an ordinary joe...

Kinda close to head office in Italy aren't you.

igCorcaigh

For me, it's about the people who are left behind. My family and friends are not religious.

I'm thinking I should make some plans, and at least have money for those plans, to cater for them.

It's just a thought, and one I have never really had.