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Religious funerals for prominent nonbelievers

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    #32
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    splinter65 wrote: »
    So... if a cousin of the deceased asks a priest to call to the house to see the bereaved, how do you think the priest should react to that request?

    Absolutely fine for the priest to make the offer to assist, similarly fine for that offer to be rejected as we did. As it happened in this case, the priest said a few words for the cousins at their own church away from the actual funeral. Also fine, each to their own.


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    #33
    harr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭harr


    splinter65 wrote: »
    But he’s dead. Gone. No more. Nothings left. Just a corpse. He can no longer be offended, hurt, annoyed or anything else. He no longer needs anything.
    So his feelings or opinions no longer matter.
    She on the other hand is his next of kin. She herself is alive, grieving, possibly shocked lonely etc and having to make arrangements to take care of his dead body. Can you not see how it’s quite possible that having been raised a Catholic/Muslim /Jewish she would turn to the familiar comforts of a religious routine and all the easier if she has a close friend a priest?

    You also have to consider his family as in his brothers and sister and his own children who knew what he wanted after his death. His wife wasn’t even a practising catholic none of the children got any of the sacraments and they were not married in religious ceremony. This man got cancer let it be known through out his illness what his wishes were. Yes she was grieving and took his death hard and yes this family friend ( Priest) did most of the funeral planning.
    I often wonder now is she sorry because she got pushed into what happened.


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    #34
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    splinter65 wrote: »
    But he’s dead. Gone. No more. Nothings left. Just a corpse. He can no longer be offended, hurt, annoyed or anything else. He no longer needs anything.
    So his feelings or opinions no longer matter.
    She on the other hand is his next of kin. She herself is alive, grieving, possibly shocked lonely etc and having to make arrangements to take care of his dead body. Can you not see how it’s quite possible that having been raised a Catholic/Muslim /Jewish she would turn to the familiar comforts of a religious routine and all the easier if she has a close friend a priest?

    Thing is that the rest of the family and friends seemed to be aware that this was contrary to the dead man's wishes. Her actions seemed to be a very visible disrespecting of her dead husband's wishes and those of her children, prioritizing instead her own religious beliefs.
    harr wrote: »
    The whole thing just didn’t sit right for a lot of his family and friends.

    I'm not surprised, it wouldn't sit well with me either. It comes across as selfish and disrespectful, possibly on the part of those pressuring her rather than herself.


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    #35
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Given the speed at which we do funerals here, I doubt anybody is going to be consulting a will first. It could well be in a solicitor's office etc. and not possible to get hold of until after arrangements have been made.
    /quote]

    It is a stupidly fast turn around in Ireland, anyone would think that it was a hot country without access to refrigeration.


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    #36
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    harr wrote: »
    You also have to consider his family as in his brothers and sister and his own children who knew what he wanted after his death. His wife wasn’t even a practising catholic none of the children got any of the sacraments and they were not married in religious ceremony. This man got cancer let it be known through out his illness what his wishes were. Yes she was grieving and took his death hard and yes this family friend ( Priest) did most of the funeral planning.
    I often wonder now is she sorry because she got pushed into what happened.


    If you want to be buried a certain way, insist on it legally. If you leave it to your next of kin and know they have different beliefs too you, waay too late mate.

    Likewise all the other busy bodies. Time to deal with this was when he was alive. If he wanted them to have a say in it he could have made those arrangements. But he didn't. End of.

    Besides if you don't believe in any of it anyway, I'm not actually sure what there is to be upset about.


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    #37
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    harr wrote: »
    You also have to consider his family as in his brothers and sister and his own children who knew what he wanted after his death. His wife wasn’t even a practising catholic none of the children got any of the sacraments and they were not married in religious ceremony. This man got cancer let it be known through out his illness what his wishes were. Yes she was grieving and took his death hard and yes this family friend ( Priest) did most of the funeral planning.
    I often wonder now is she sorry because she got pushed into what happened.

    So a priest forced his way in unasked and took over the funeral planning against her wishes and all the other adults involved including adult children and siblings stood by helplessly and wordlessly while this priest dictated what would happen and issued instructions to the undertaker....ok.
    Out of interest harr, have you had anyone close to you die and have you had any experience of organizing a funeral?


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    #38
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    smacl wrote: »
    Thing is that the rest of the family and friends seemed to be aware that this was contrary to the dead man's wishes. ...

    It's amazing how many people know someone's wishes after they are dead. But say nothing while the person is alive to disagree with them.


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    #39
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    I don't see what the fuss is about most atheists I know wouldn't care if they were buried in a hessian sack and thrown into a hole.

    After all sure they are not interested in a secular funeral and if its against their wishes to be given a Christian ritualistic funeral and they end up being buried along with a sacramental send off, sure nothing really matters.
    They're dead and according to their beliefs they won't know what happened...

    Some people's good will is other people's bad will..

    Just accept it


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    #40
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    robinph wrote: »
    It is a stupidly fast turn around in Ireland, anyone would think that it was a hot country without access to refrigeration.

    That reminds me, my granny’s death coincided with a very hot weekend. High 20s all weekend and the removal was from her house. She died on a Friday and was buried on the Monday. Her coffin stayed in her house until the Monday morning because her wish was to not be in the church overnight by herself. The undertaker, as sensitively as he could, had to tell us to set up a big fan beside her coffin. He didn’t outline what would happen if we didn’t. We didn’t query further and just went out and bought one pronto.


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    #41
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    smacl wrote: »
    Thing is that the rest of the family and friends seemed to be aware that this was contrary to the dead man's wishes. Her actions seemed to be a very visible disrespecting of her dead husband's wishes and those of her children, prioritizing instead her own religious beliefs.



    I'm not surprised, it wouldn't sit well with me either. It comes across as selfish and disrespectful, possibly on the part of those pressuring her rather than herself.

    So it’s not possible at all that the widow,newly bereaved, longed for herself for the comfort of a religious funeral and all that comes with it, having had a religious upbringing.
    It has to be the case that the blame for the religious funerals falls to one of these mysterious almost demonic priests who inexplicably force their way into people’s funeral arrangements (despite there being nothing in it for them) unopposed by any other adults present having heard word of a death through the clerical Tom Tom.


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    #42
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    I'm a bit surprised at the extent to which this still seems to be the done thing. ...Stephen Hawking is one recent case in point: he totally rejected religion in his life so why is he having a funeral in a church?
    ...


    https://www.quora.com/Does-anyone-find-it-odd-that-professor-Stephen-Hawking-is-being-laid-to-rest-in-Westminster-Abbey-a-place-of-worship-to-God-when-he-was-a-man-of-science?top_ans=78707355

    The suggestion here was that it was not because of its religious significance but it's science and cultural significance.


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    #43
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,032 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

    One of the funerals of a famous person in recent years I was surprised by was Maeve Binchy - a well-known atheist, but catholic funeral.

    I remember her talking about this in an interview a few years before she died. I think she said she didn't want to inflict a 'humanist funeral' on her nearest and dearest so she had approached the parish priest in Dalkey about having a traditional funeral even though she wasn't a believer and he said fine.


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    #44
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I honestly can't see why people are worked up about it.
    If as you believe being dead then there's nothing , you won't know about it and won't care.


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    #45
    harr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭harr


    splinter65 wrote: »
    So a priest forced his way in unasked and took over the funeral planning against her wishes and all the other adults involved including adult children and siblings stood by helplessly and wordlessly while this priest dictated what would happen and issued instructions to the undertaker....ok.
    Out of interest harr, have you had anyone close to you die and have you had any experience of organizing a funeral?

    I wish people would read some context of what I am posting . I won’t keep repeating that the Priest was a close family friend of the mans wife and that the Catholic Church still has quite a hold of people of a certain age in rural Ireland. All it took was a quick Conversation with the wife on how she should “ do the right thing “ to change the funeral agreements and keep in mind this all happened probably in the space of half a day.
    I haven’t been directly involved in organising a funeral but I know what’s involved.. where I am from the undertaker is normally the man who does most of the organising . But most funerals I have attended have been all catholic and most seem to follow the same structure.


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    #46
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,032 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    nthclare wrote: »
    I don't see what the fuss is about most atheists I know wouldn't care if they were buried in a hessian sack and thrown into a hole.

    After all sure they are not interested in a secular funeral and if its against their wishes to be given a Christian ritualistic funeral and they end up being buried along with a sacramental send off, sure nothing really matters.
    They're dead and according to their beliefs they won't know what happened...

    Some people's good will is other people's bad will..

    Just accept it

    If you're an activist for secular, 'progressive' causes as a politician or journalist or whatever, presumably you want those causes to thrive after your death. And if such a person has a religious funeral, are they not lending credence in some small way to what they regard as a reactionary force? Nuala O'Faolain would be an example of such a person who ended up having a Catholic funeral for whatever reason.


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    #47
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭wench


    beauf wrote: »
    If you want to be buried a certain way, insist on it legally. If you leave it to your next of kin and know they have different beliefs too you, waay too late mate.

    Likewise all the other busy bodies. Time to deal with this was when he was alive. If he wanted them to have a say in it he could have made those arrangements. But he didn't. End of.


    How can you ensure it legally though?
    Once you die your body becomes property of your next of kin, who can do with it as they wish.


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    #48
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    harr wrote: »
    I wish people would read some context of what I am posting . I won’t keep repeating that the Priest was a close family friend of the mans wife and that the Catholic Church still has quite a hold of people of a certain age in rural Ireland. All it took was a quick Conversation with the wife on how she should “ do the right thing “ to change the funeral agreements and keep in mind this all happened probably in the space of half a day.
    I haven’t been directly involved in organising a funeral but I know what’s involved.. where I am from the undertaker is normally the man who does most of the organising . But most funerals I have attended have been all catholic and most seem to follow the same structure.

    So you overheard the priest (a friend of the bereaved widow) telling her that she had to “do the right thing”, but you felt no need to either interject at that stage or take her aside when he was gone and tell her that you and the rest of the family would support her by telling the priest that she no longer needed his help?
    That sounds a bit strange and, I suppose unbelievable. Were you afraid of him or something?I’m not saying that your making this up as you go along but you’ll have to admit it’s a bit strange.
    Also, you do realize that when someone dies that a family member selects an undertaker, and the undertaker asks the family what they want and follow their instructions.
    The undertaker doesn’t “organize” the funeral. He listens to the family and if at all possible he does what they want.


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    #49
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    splinter65 wrote: »
    But he’s dead. Gone. No more. Nothings left. Just a corpse. He can no longer be offended, hurt, annoyed or anything else. He no longer needs anything.
    So his feelings or opinions no longer matter.
    She on the other hand is his next of kin. She herself is alive, grieving, possibly shocked lonely etc and having to make arrangements to take care of his dead body. Can you not see how it’s quite possible that having been raised a Catholic/Muslim /Jewish she would turn to the familiar comforts of a religious routine and all the easier if she has a close friend a priest?

    Others have answered this. However we're in a somewhat similar situation, we're both raised catholics but not practicing. His parents were very religious and it was his mams wish to have her first grandchild christened... It happened in her hospital room, by the parish priest, she died a few days later. Our second child hasn't been christened. We don't even have the baptismal cert for the first and they won't be receiving any other sacraments.


    Himself has made it very clear that he has no interest in the church. So if anything happened him now I would feel like it would be very disrespectful to him if we had a church funeral... Yes he'll be dead and gone, but I'm sorry I do think his feelings and opinions still matter.


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    #50
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Princess Calla wrote: »
    Others have answered this. However we're in a somewhat similar situation, we're both raised catholics but not practicing. His parents were very religious and it was his mams wish to have her first grandchild christened... It happened in her hospital room, by the parish priest, she died a few days later. Our second child hasn't been christened. We don't even have the baptismal cert for the first and they won't be receiving any other sacraments.


    Himself has made it very clear that he has no interest in the church. So if anything happened him now I would feel like it would be very disrespectful to him if we had a church funeral... Yes he'll be dead and gone, but I'm sorry I do think his feelings and opinions still matter.

    Why are you sorry though, or what are you sorry about?
    You as a widow would be entitled to make the decisions about the funeral and you’d be asking extended family to respect your decisions despite what they’d like to happen.
    So do you accept that this widow in real life made her decisions about the funeral despite the opinions of family and friends and she should be allowed to do that?


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    #51
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Why are you sorry though, or what are you sorry about?
    You as a widow would be entitled to make the decisions about the funeral and you’d be asking extended family to respect your decisions despite what they’d like to happen.
    So do you accept that this widow in real life made her decisions about the funeral despite the opinions of family and friends and she should be allowed to do that?

    "I'm sorry" is a turn of phrase used in this context to politely disagree with the sentiment that once you're dead, your opinions and way of life no longer matter.

    I doubt I'll be a widow, we're too busy living in sin!

    Yes as the spouse she gets the final say, that's kinda the whole marriage lark isn't it? None of us know what she was thinking and why she chose to go in that direction. Also, none of us know if she regrets that decision.


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    #52
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    wench wrote: »
    How can you ensure it legally though?
    Once you die your body becomes property of your next of kin, who can do with it as they wish.

    Via the will.

    http://www.fanagans.ie/faq/funeral-arrangements


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    #53
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Princess Calla wrote: »
    "I'm sorry" is a turn of phrase used in this context to politely disagree with the sentiment that once you're dead, your opinions and way of life no longer matter.

    I doubt I'll be a widow, we're too busy living in sin!

    Yes as the spouse she gets the final say, that's kinda the whole marriage lark isn't it? None of us know what she was thinking and why she chose to go in that direction. Also, none of us know if she regrets that decision.

    Well don’t ever be sorry to disagree with someone else.
    I’m interested in the idea that you think that you have to be married in order to be the point of reference for an undertaker in the death of a partner.
    Would you give way to your partners family's opinions and wishes in a crisis? You think that people who aren’t married are down a pecking order in terms of authority? That’s oddly old fashioned.


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    #54
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    beauf wrote: »
    Via the will.

    http://www.fanagans.ie/faq/funeral-arrangements

    It doesn’t say anything in there about making funeral arrangements legally enforceable.


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    #55
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭wench


    So you think the undertaker is going look to see a will before going ahead with the arrangements?
    Better hope the solicitor holding it, or the executor aren't away on holiday.

    And if the widow says she knows of no will?


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    #56
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Well don’t ever be sorry to disagree with someone else.
    I’m interested in the idea that you think that you have to be married in order to be the point of reference for an undertaker in the death of a partner.
    Would you give way to your partners family's opinions and wishes in a crisis? You think that people who aren’t married are down a pecking order in terms of authority? That’s oddly old fashioned.

    I never stated that I thought you had to be married to be the point of reference... I just said I wasn't married.

    I also never mentioned anything about pecking orders.


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    #57
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,424 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    I remember her talking about this in an interview a few years before she died. I think she said she didn't want to inflict a 'humanist funeral' on her nearest and dearest so she had approached the parish priest in Dalkey about having a traditional funeral even though she wasn't a believer and he said fine.


    Not sure what is 'inflicting' about a humanist funeral. A couple of the best funerals I've attended have been humanist - moving, memorable, inclusive, musical, driven by direct family - what's not to like?

    nthclare wrote: »
    I don't see what the fuss is about most atheists I know wouldn't care if they were buried in a hessian sack and thrown into a hole.

    After all sure they are not interested in a secular funeral and if its against their wishes to be given a Christian ritualistic funeral and they end up being buried along with a sacramental send off, sure nothing really matters.
    They're dead and according to their beliefs they won't know what happened...

    Some people's good will is other people's bad will..

    Just accept it
    I don't see the connection between atheism and not caring about the funeral. I'm an athiest, and I'd love to know that there is an 'event' to mark my departure. That's my wish.


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    #58
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,884 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    To me, funerals are for the living. They are alive and will do it for ya.

    I don't care what they do with me, but you know the score, the relatives and neighbours will be looking for a funeral in the Church. That's grand I won't know or care and off with them.

    It is the hoolie after that is important to me. And I have struct instrictions (lol) about that and it doesn't involve a pub AT ALL. Has to be civilised. We have had many a late night laughing about it all.

    Celebrating the life is important. But at the end of the day, the bereavement affects those closest. Anyway who cares. I hope they have a great day.

    At my fkn expense lol.


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    #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    splinter65 wrote: »
    It doesn’t say anything in there about making funeral arrangements legally enforceable.

    I'm not entirely sure what your looking for...


    "The person who has legal authority to make funeral arrangements is the Executor"

    "An executor is legally in charge of making a deceased person's funeral arrangements. The executor must carry out the funeral instructions provided in the person's will. For example, a person may direct cremation, burial in a family cemetery, or a specific memorial service."

    ...I'm certainly no authority, I'm only repeating what I googled. If you've found something else please share.


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    #60
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    More here...(yes UK is unlikely to be different here but I'm open to correction)

    https://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/individuals/contesting_wills_probate/burial_disputes/


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    #61
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Apologies, a blunt and simplistic choice of words and I can see how they would be hurtful to someone in your situation. I was wondering why many famous people do not follow through with their expressed rejection of religion when it comes to their funeral arrangements but I can certainly understand why other considerations should rightly override such 'ideological consistency' in many cases.

    Well I guess famous people have loved ones too and those loved ones are more important than the general public.


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