Religious funerals for prominent nonbelievers

Loafing Oaf

I'm a bit surprised at the extent to which this still seems to be the done thing. I was prompted to think about this by Marian Finucane receiving a Catholic funeral but I don't know for sure what her religious affiliations were so I won't use her as a particular example. Stephen Hawking is one recent case in point: he totally rejected religion in his life so why is he having a funeral in a church?

It's not something I'm hugely passionate about, I just sort of feel such people should have the courage of their own convictions. Are they not adding a smidgen of credibility to the faith they rejected by using it to mark their passing? Also, is it not slightly bad-mannered to be asking a clergyperson to be looking to find an example of Christian virtue in the life of someone who rejected the religion (and quite possibly conducted their personal life in flagrant contravention of its teachings).

I know secular funerals can be pretty 'soulless' affairs, but if you don't fancy that why not skip the whole folderol and have yourself buried/cremated without ceremony, like David Bowie did?

nozzferrahhtoo

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

It's not something I'm hugely passionate about, I just sort of feel such people should have the courage of their own convictions.

I can not comment on individual cases, certainly not high profile ones which could have any number of explanations in the background.

But from personal anecdotes I know many atheists who, since they do not believe in an after life or anything, see the funeral as something for the people left behind. Not for themselves in any way, and in fact they could not care less what is done with their remains.

So they leave their corpse to their loved ones to do whatever ceremonies fit with THEIR convictions, and THEIR well being, not the convictions of the deceased. And I can sympathise with that a little. If my loved ones are going to suffer from my passing, then if performing some Mumbo Jumbo ceremony over my remains brings them some level of comfort and well being.... let them have at it I would be tempted to say. If in fact my loved ones in general showed any religious convictions that is. So far none of them do, cept my 5 year old son who has not quite grown out of it yet.

Of course the above will not explain ALL atheists ending up in such ceremonies. Just some subsection of them. There are any number of other explanations that are also like true. Such as busy body control freak relatives who muscle their way in and force THEIR convictions onto the corpse rather than any the deceased or their loved ones might have had.

I am also not sure how often people specify their funeral requests in wills, lose their faith, and then simply never get around to altering the will. Is that a thing? Probably not, but it just popped into my head

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Also, is it not slightly bad-mannered to be asking a clergyperson to be looking to find an example of Christian virtue in the life of someone who rejected the religion

I would be sympathetic to that line of thinking to a point. But at the end of the day I see the church... or churches in general.... as a business model, providing a service people get swindled..... sorry.... choose to pay for.

As such if they choose to accept a contract, which they are not compelled to accept, then they should suck it up and provide for the customer. If they have an issue fitting the requests of a customer then they should take it up with the customer. Be that mumbo jumbo in a nonsense religious ceremony..... or the icing on a gay cake in a bakery

harr

A former work colleague of mine was was very anti religion of any sort especially the Catholic Church and was adamant his funeral was to be non secular when he died. He passed away in his 60,s and his family went against his wishes and had the full catholic ceremony. I think it was his wife who did in fact go against some members of his family who tried to go with his wishes. It was a wrong thing to do just because it made his wife feel better. The local parish priest at the time had convinced her it was the right thing to do..
So I think a lot of people leave it up to family members to deal with the funeral side of things after they have passed.

Loafing Oaf

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I can not comment on individual cases, certainly not high profile ones which could have any number of explanations in the background.

But from personal anecdotes I know many atheists who, since they do not believe in an after life or anything, see the funeral as something for the people left behind. Not for themselves in any way, and in fact they could not care less what is done with their remains.

I suppose the difference between the ordinary joe and the celebrity nonbeliever is that in the former case likely most of the congregation wouldn't be particularly aware of what his religious beliefs or nonbeliefs were, while there is a greater degree of sham and hypocrisy about the whole thing, and to my mind more of an imposition on the priest conducting the ceremony, in the latter case.

smacl

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I just sort of feel such people should have the courage of their own convictions.

Unfortunately unless explicit instructions are left, you're dealing with the preferences of next of kin. When my dad died I was very clear about having a non-religious funeral as he was a life-long atheist and had no time for the church. This didn't go down too well with some other family members, where those involved didn't show up at the funeral and had their own religious ceremony instead. Each to their own. While I have sympathies with those who would have wanted a religious aspect to the funeral, as an expression of their own personal beliefs, I rather doubt they would have made any such concession if the roles were reversed. From my point of view, allowing a priest next, nigh or near the event would have been dishonest and disrespectful.

I don't think celebrity makes much of a difference in this, it is about personal preference of the deceased and their loved ones.

doughef

You lot should probably get hobbies and mind your own business

nozzferrahhtoo

Human Psychology IS one of my deep hobbies actually, and few people on this planet openly put themselves forward for psychological evaluation and observation as the religious do, and few things cause such interesting psychological effects on the human mind as religion and it's effects.

I trust you recognise people not having the same hobbies as YOU, does not mean they do not have hobbies, or good hobbies. Because if not then the end of your sentence which actually applies to no one here, might actually usefully apply better to the contents of your nearest mirror.

doughef

Fair point -

.. but atheists have a really unlikeable / nasal gazing / superiority complex ..




quote="nozzferrahhtoo;112188195"]Human Psychology IS one of my deep hobbies actually, and few people on this planet openly put themselves forward for psychological evaluation and observation as the religious do, and few things cause such interesting psychological effects on the human mind as religion and it's effects.

I trust you recognise people not having the same hobbies as YOU, does not mean they do not have hobbies, or good hobbies. Because if not then the end of your sentence which actually applies to no one here, might actually usefully apply better to the contents of your nearest mirror.[/quote]

magicbastarder

while in one sense i would be of the opinion 'do with my body whatever makes you feel better when i'm gone', in another sense, if i was to be given a religious funeral, i'd be insulted to think that people held my known opinions in such low regard.
i guess it'd be like telling a catholic that you'd be buried according to a religious belief that they disbelieved.

smacl

doughef wrote: »

You lot should probably get hobbies and mind your own business

doughef wrote: »

Fair point -

.. but atheists have a really unlikeable / nasal gazing / superiority complex ..

Mod: First couple of posts in this forum and you're trolling. Please don't post again until you've read and understood the charter. Thanks for your attention.

magicbastarder

i do resent being called a nasal gazer, FWIW.

robinph

For the likes of "celeb" non-believers you also have that it might need to be held somewhere suitable for various other dignitaries to attend or the capacity of the venue or for TV coverage, and the likes of Westmister Abbey would be setup to handle that kind of thing at short notice. As for Stephen Hawking as they buried him in Westminster Abbey in an act of recognition by the state it would be a bit odd if he'd been cremated at the local council crematorium.

smacl

robinph wrote: »

For the likes of "celeb" non-believers you also have that it might need to be held somewhere suitable for various other dignitaries to attend or the capacity of the venue or for TV coverage, and the likes of Westmister Abbey would be setup to handle that kind of thing at short notice. As for Stephen Hawking as they buried him in Westminster Abbey in an act of recognition by the state it would be a bit odd if he'd been cremated at the local council crematorium.

That rather depends on whether you consider a funeral to be a public or private affair. In my opinion this should be solely based on the wishes of the deceased and immediate next of kin, where the interests of the state, the media and other dignitaries come a very distant third. Much like many of our own TDs showing up at all the local funerals, I'd wonder about how much self interest and self promotion is involved here.

Loafing Oaf

smacl wrote: »

That rather depends on whether you consider a funeral to be a public or private affair. In my opinion this should be solely based on the wishes of the deceased and immediate next of kin, where the interests of the state, the media and other dignitaries come a very distant third. Much like many of our own TDs showing up at all the local funerals, I'd wonder about how much self interest and self promotion is involved here.

But are not the public acts of prominent figures, even 'posthumous' ones, to some extent public statements? If our own beloved president were to have a humanist ceremony when his time comes, would that not be a strong statement on behalf of his secular, socialist republican worldview, particularly if he was still in office at the time? Very surprised if he did though...

endacl

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do resent being called a nasal gazer, FWIW.

Born again atheists have two navels. It’s easy to spot them. They’re cross eyed.

smacl

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But are not the public acts of prominent figures, even 'posthumous' ones, to some extent public statements? If our own beloved president were to have a humanist ceremony when his time comes, would that not be a strong statement on behalf of his secular, socialist republican worldview, particularly if he was still in office at the time? Very surprised if he did though...

Just my opinion, but I think this should be the choice of those involved rather than a right that the general public can assert. You could argue the contrary to some extent where someone's claim to fame was largely about placing themselves in the public sphere, such as a politician or film star, but not for the likes of a physicist. Even then, I believe that everyone should have a certain right to privacy, particularly when mourning a family member. Many people would no doubt enjoy the kudos of a large public funeral but others might not.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I’m not religious at all and unfortunately I’ve had to think about my funeral in the last few years. I’ve decided on a Catholic service. Why? Because it’s not just about me. It’s going to be hard enough for my parents to bury a child. I want the funeral to bring them comfort and I also don’t want them to have to grapple with something unfamiliar at a very difficult time. If people think I’m lily-livered for deciding this, so be it. I have enough to be worrying about.

splinter65

harr wrote: »

A former work colleague of mine was was very anti religion of any sort especially the Catholic Church and was adamant his funeral was to be non secular when he died. He passed away in his 60,s and his family went against his wishes and had the full catholic ceremony. I think it was his wife who did in fact go against some members of his family who tried to go with his wishes. It was a wrong thing to do just because it made his wife feel better. The local parish priest at the time had convinced her it was the right thing to do..
So I think a lot of people leave it up to family members to deal with the funeral side of things after they have passed.

If it made the wife of your dead colleague feel better about her husband dying then what difference did it make what kind of a funeral he had?

Hotblack Desiato

Given the speed at which we do funerals here, I doubt anybody is going to be consulting a will first. It could well be in a solicitor's office etc. and not possible to get hold of until after arrangements have been made.

Ultimately like an organ donor card, it's only a suggestion on your part - if you want your loved ones to carry out your wishes they need to be aware of them, and there are no guarantees even then.

One of the funerals of a famous person in recent years I was surprised by was Maeve Binchy - a well-known atheist, but catholic funeral.

smacl

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If people think I’m lily-livered for deciding this, so be it. I have enough to be worrying about.

Very far from it, it is being considerate to those you care about in their time of need and should in my opinion be applauded.

harr

splinter65 wrote: »

If it made the wife of your dead colleague feel better about her husband dying then what difference did it make what kind of a funeral he had?

Because he was adamant that he didn’t want a religious service and a very personal reason he definitely didn’t want a catholic service. The man hadn’t set foot in a church for nearly 50 years. While his wife was catholic she wasn’t practising none of his kids had any dealings with the church or any of his living brothers or sisters.
It was definitely wrong for a Priest to pressure and dictate to the wife about the funeral ( he was a family friend on her side ) .. now the man is buried in a catholic graveyard instead of being cremated like he wanted.
I understand people will say

“ sure what difference would it make to him he wouldn’t have known anything about it”

The whole thing just didn’t sit right for a lot of his family and friends.

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Given the speed at which we do funerals here, I doubt anybody is going to be consulting a will first. It could well be in a solicitor's office etc. and not possible to get hold of until after arrangements have been made.

Ultimately like an organ donor card, it's only a suggestion on your part - if you want your loved ones to carry out your wishes they need to be aware of them, and there are no guarantees even then.

One of the funerals of a famous person in recent years I was surprised by was Maeve Binchy - a well-known atheist, but catholic funeral.

I always see these posts about leaving funeral instructions in a will and it makes me wonder if these people have had any experience at all of someone close to them dying because anyone would know that especially outside Dublin if you die today you’ll be buried/cremated the day after tomorrow unless someone has to fly back from far away.
Lots of people never think about death despite it being the only thing that’s certain in life. Of course lots of people never think about it and really don’t give a damn what happens their remains after they’ve died or would assume their loved ones would just do whatever is the norm.
If for whatever reason you want to specify particular instructions then you’d better tell the relevant people now and tell them too where they’ll find the money you’ve left to pay for it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

smacl wrote: »

Very far from it, it is being considerate to those you care about in their time of need and should in my opinion be applauded.

It’s just that the OP talked about having the courage of your convictions.

Hotblack Desiato

harr wrote: »

It was definitely wrong for a Priest to pressure and dictate to the wife about the funeral ( he was a family friend on her side ) .. now the man is buried in a catholic graveyard instead of being cremated like he wanted.

Plenty of people have catholic funerals and get cremated, so that bit doesn't follow

I understand people will say

“ sure what difference would it make to him he wouldn’t have known anything about it”

The whole thing just didn’t sit right for a lot of his family and friends.

Exactly and the "family friend" priest can GFH, imagine doing that to a grieving woman.

"Family friend" will only make himself look even more arrogant/stupid when he goes on about how the deceased was known to god, is with god, blah blah and everyone knows what his actual beliefs were.

splinter65

harr wrote: »

Because he was adamant that he didn’t want a religious service and a very personal reason he definitely didn’t want a catholic service. The man hadn’t set foot in a church for nearly 50 years. While his wife was catholic she wasn’t practising none of his kids had any dealings with the church or any of his living brothers or sisters.
It was definitely wrong for a Priest to pressure and dictate to the wife about the funeral ( he was a family friend on her side ) .. now the man is buried in a catholic graveyard instead of being cremated like he wanted.
I understand people will say

“ sure what difference would it make to him he wouldn’t have known anything about it”

The whole thing just didn’t sit right for a lot of his family and friends.

Should his wife have had a “show of hands” or something amongst his family and friends when it came to making her husbands funeral arrangements?
Or do you think she should have asked them to write down their suggestions on ballot sheets put them into a box on the kitchen table and then she could sit down and read them all and ignore her own wishes (she’s only his wife after all, his life partner) and plan his funeral around what his friends want?
Do you think that all funerals should be planned this way?
If he and his wife weren’t practicing Catholics then how did the priest hear that he was dead? Are you suggesting that a priest forced his way into the arrangements insisting that a requiem mass be said? Why would he do that? What would be in it for the priest?

smacl

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It’s just that the OP talked about having the courage of your convictions.

From where I'm sitting, you clearly seem to have the courage of yours. As Noz pointed out, that can include putting the needs of others before your own after you're gone. While I'm an atheist and a secularist myself, both are much less important to me than looking after my nearest and dearest.

Princess Calla

splinter65 wrote: »

Should his wife have had a “show of hands” or something amongst his family and friends when it came to making her husbands funeral arrangements?
Or do you think she should have asked them to write down their suggestions on ballot sheets put them into a box on the kitchen table and then she could sit down and read them all and ignore her own wishes (she’s only his wife after all, his life partner) and plan his funeral around what his friends want?
Do you think that all funerals should be planned this way?
If he and his wife weren’t practicing Catholics then how did the priest hear that he was dead? Are you suggesting that a priest forced his way into the arrangements insisting that a requiem mass be said? Why would he do that? What would be in it for the priest?

From the post the priest was a family friend of the wife!

I don't even know these people and I'm annoyed on the husband's behalf.

Having a church burial went completely against everything the man stood for.

Loafing Oaf

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It’s just that the OP talked about having the courage of your convictions.

Apologies, a blunt and simplistic choice of words and I can see how they would be hurtful to someone in your situation. I was wondering why many famous people do not follow through with their expressed rejection of religion when it comes to their funeral arrangements but I can certainly understand why other considerations should rightly override such 'ideological consistency' in many cases.

smacl

splinter65 wrote: »

If he and his wife weren’t practicing Catholics then how did the priest hear that he was dead?

In most families, particularly in small communities, news of a death travels exceedingly quickly. I'd guess it unlikely that the priest would act directly, more likely another family member or friend interceded. This was the case when my dad died, with distant relatives he hadn't heard from in decades popping out of the woodwork and strong pressure to have a priest say a few words. Funerals are not easy to organise and a time when those doing so who are grieving are easily put under pressure. It takes a bit of fortitude to keep the interlopers at bay.

splinter65

Princess Calla wrote: »

From the post the priest was a family friend of the wife!

I don't even know these people and I'm annoyed on the husband's behalf.

Having a church burial went completely against everything the man stood for.

But he’s dead. Gone. No more. Nothings left. Just a corpse. He can no longer be offended, hurt, annoyed or anything else. He no longer needs anything.
So his feelings or opinions no longer matter.
She on the other hand is his next of kin. She herself is alive, grieving, possibly shocked lonely etc and having to make arrangements to take care of his dead body. Can you not see how it’s quite possible that having been raised a Catholic/Muslim /Jewish she would turn to the familiar comforts of a religious routine and all the easier if she has a close friend a priest?

splinter65

smacl wrote: »

In most families, particularly in small communities, news of a death travels exceedingly quickly. I'd guess it unlikely that the priest would act directly, more likely another family member or friend interceded. This was the case when my dad died, with distant relatives he hadn't heard from in decades popping out of the woodwork and strong pressure to have a priest say a few words. Funerals are not easy to organise and a time when those doing so who are grieving are easily put under pressure. It takes a bit of fortitude to keep the interlopers at bay.

So... if a cousin of the deceased asks a priest to call to the house to see the bereaved, how do you think the priest should react to that request?