TNG runthrough

pixelburp · 01-09-2018 8:01pm

Evade wrote: »

Geordie's was accidental and I don't think it's implied Barclay did anything "creepy" unlike Quark when he tries to recreate Kira on DS9. I think Janeway was the only Federation character who intentionally created a holo-partner.

Intent is an important distinction but doesn't totally forgive the obvious moral issues of recreating real, living people, whatever the intention. If a working, adult professional like LaForge can "accidentally" fall in love with a hologram and get a littttttle inappropriate around the real version, kinda reflects poorly on the engineer (and the Federations utopian ideals a little). The most charitable thing I can say is that the whole thing sounds unhealthy.

Evade · 01-09-2018 8:18pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Intent is an important distinction but doesn't totally forgive the obvious moral issues of recreating real, living people, whatever the intention.

I wonder where the line would be in that situation. Would recreating Kirk's adventures on the Enterprise D's holodeck be out of the question since most of those people could still be alive or do you need to go back further to ensure all the recreations real counterparts are dead, and dead for how long?

pixelburp wrote: »

If a working, adult professional like LaForge can "accidentally" fall in love with a hologram and get a littttttle inappropriate around the real version, kinda reflects poorly on the engineer (and the Federations utopian ideals a little). The most charitable thing I can say is that the whole thing sounds unhealthy.

It's definitely unhealthy but it's kind of sad at the same time.

IvySlayer · 01-09-2018 9:40pm

That's what I dislike about The Doctors equal rights for holograms campaign.

Janeway falling in love with a holodeck character was seen as something that should be encouraged, to me that's disturbing. They tried to make The Doctor fall in love with Seven but they dropped that story quick too

And when Michael Sullivan seemed to gain self recognition and sentience, he's never seen or referenced to again!!

pixelburp · 01-09-2018 11:30pm

Evade wrote: »

I wonder where the line would be in that situation. Would recreating Kirk's adventures on the Enterprise D's holodeck be out of the question since most of those people could still be alive or do you need to go back further to ensure all the recreations real counterparts are dead, and dead for how long?

It's definitely unhealthy but it's kind of sad at the same time.

Maybe it speaks to why TNG felt quite celibate in its depiction of romance and sex. To me anyway, the OBrien/Keiko relationship, among others, always felt cold and distant . Ok, there were network constraints of courses, but in canon it's interesting to think of the Federation becoming quite an emotionally enclosed society, where people forgot how to have real relationships when its easier for you to romance / bone any hologram you wish.

But the whole hologram / AI and what they were seems very sketchily thought out at best. A techobabble excuse to still have the "planet of the nazis" episodes without an actual planet.

Evade · 01-09-2018 11:47pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe it speaks to why TNG felt quite celibate in its depiction of romance and sex. To me anyway, the OBrien/Keiko relationship, among others, always felt cold and distant . Ok, there were network constraints of courses, but in canon it's interesting to think of the Federation becoming quite an emotionally enclosed society, where people forgot how to have real relationships when its easier for you to romance / bone any hologram you wish.

Keiko and O'Brien's marriage almost seemed like it was arranged. We didn't see any build up he was a minor character so that's not that odd but then there's the scene in the Wounded, which is shortly after they'd married, and she's introducing him to Japanese food and he wants to make her some Irish food. I'm no expert but that seems like something that would come up long before the honeymoon. It's almost like they'd never eaten a meal together before.

Inviere · 02-09-2018 7:18am

pixelburp wrote: »

OBrien/Keiko relationship, among others, always felt cold and distant

I think that's just Keiko

TheValeyard · 02-09-2018 8:36am

Inviere wrote: »

I think that's just Keiko

Yeah the marriage seemed more real when the pah wraiths were controlling her.

Inviere · 02-09-2018 8:42am

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Yeah the marriage seemed more real when the pah wraiths were controlling her.

:D

coffee_cake · 02-09-2018 12:20pm

Myyyyyuuuulllllls

It was a bit odd, I know she was unhappy on the station but they didn't have too many happy moments iirc. Some but not that many
Bashir and ezri was just bizarre as well

IvySlayer · 02-09-2018 12:56pm

What does a botanist actually do all day anyway? Maintaining an arbouretim on the Enterprise D must be the most boring job ever!

Nurse Ogawa had more development than Keiko :P

Inviere · 02-09-2018 12:59pm

IvySlayer wrote: »

What does a botanist actually do all day anyway? Maintaining an arbouretim on the Enterprise D must be the most boring job ever!

There's that, but a lot of Exobiology too I'd imagine.

Nurse Ogawa had more development than Keiko :P

Lol, she actually did

Evade · 02-09-2018 12:59pm

IvySlayer wrote: »

What does a botanist actually do all day anyway? Maintaining an arbouretim on the Enterprise D must be the most boring job ever!

Nurse Ogawa had more development than Keiko :P

Being on a ship that seeks out new life would probably be pretty exciting for a botanist.

IvySlayer · 02-09-2018 1:02pm

Evade wrote: »

Being on a ship that seeks out new life would probably be pretty exciting for a botanist.

We never saw it though and she was not in Starfleet who presumably had a science lab with experts

Inviere · 02-09-2018 1:05pm

IvySlayer wrote: »

We never saw it though and she was not in Starfleet who presumably had a science lab with experts

We never say loads of things really, but it's safe to assume she had a civilian position within whatever botanical department existed, which undoubtedly have some exobiology stuff going on.

Evade · 02-09-2018 1:10pm

I imagine it would go something like this.

Away team brings back some weird plants, Starfleet exobiologists determine if it will kill the crew or not, if it doesn't "Hey Keiko, here's a new plant that looks really cool when it blooms do you want to try incorporate it into your arboretum an try to get it to thrive alongside the plant species from dozens of other worlds?"

pixelburp · 02-09-2018 1:12pm

Hmmm, could be an interesting premise that combined the pacifist exploration angle with narrative drama: a Federation ship packed with botanists and scientists looking for a mcGuffin in unexplored territories, maybe some cure for a disease, that sort of thing.

Evade · 02-09-2018 1:16pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Hmmm, could be an interesting premise that combined the pacifist exploration angle with narrative drama: a Federation ship packed with botanists and scientists looking for a mcGuffin in unexplored territories, maybe some cure for a disease, that sort of thing.

Maybe in a few years after STD's magic mushroom nonsense has had time to be forgotten.

coffee_cake · 02-09-2018 4:45pm

Data got kidnapped and rescued just when he was gona shoot your man. Pity he didn't manage it.

Dress uniforms are mad looking aren't they

Inviere · 02-09-2018 4:56pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Data got kidnapped and rescued just when he was gona shoot your man. Pity he didn't manage it.

Watched that recently, and thought it odd. It's either a very coincidental transporter glitch, or Data blatantly lied to Riker.

Evade · 02-09-2018 5:13pm

The way he worded it doesn't make it an outright lie, but he did try to kill Fajo, and justifiably so given what he knew at the time. Data can kill, he may try to avoid it but he can do it, otherwise he wouldn't be able to do his job.

Inviere · 02-09-2018 5:24pm

Evade wrote: »

The way he worded it doesn't make it an outright lie, but he did try to kill Fajo

If you say he did try to kill Fajo, & then told Riker "Perhaps something occurred during transport Commander?", how is that not a lie? He's blaming the weapon discharge on a transporter glitch...

Evade · 02-09-2018 5:31pm

"Perhaps" it's not a definite statement.

Inviere · 02-09-2018 5:32pm

Evade wrote: »

"Perhaps" it's not a definite statement.

Come off it, he lied. Data knew something didn't go wrong in the transport, he knew he pulled the trigger, yet chose to lie about it. As I said, it was interesting.

Evade · 02-09-2018 5:41pm

Inviere wrote: »

Come off it, he lied. Data knew something didn't go wrong in the transport, he knew he pulled the trigger, yet chose to lie about it. As I said, it was interesting.

I misread your previous post. It was a lie just not an outright lie like "I didn't fire" would be. There's wiggle room there and it's in line with the other time he lied to everyone in Clues where he offers alternate explanations he knows aren't true but starts the statement with "perhaps."

Inviere · 02-09-2018 5:44pm

Evade wrote: »

I misread your previous post. It was a lie just not an outright lie like "I didn't fire" would be. There's wiggle room there and it's in line with the other time he lied to everyone in Clues where he offers alternate explanations he knows aren't true but starts the statement with "perhaps."

For me, the actual context of his "Perhaps something occurred during transport Commander?", is "Wasn't me Sir, perhaps it was a transporter glitch."

Yeah I'd forgotten about Clues, but that has more reasoning behind it (he was trying to protect everyone on the ship). In The Most Toys, he's lying to protect himself from a murder investigation/court martial, & seems far more selfish. Whether we agree with his decision to kill or not, it was the lawless attempted murder of a defenseless person. It's a very emotional decision he made, from someone, without emotion.

coffee_cake · 02-09-2018 5:54pm

Yeah was totally a lie, thought it was odd. I was surprised they actually captured your man after, thought he'd be found mysteriously dead

Evade · 02-09-2018 5:55pm

Inviere wrote: »

For me, the actual context of his "Perhaps something occurred during transport Commander?", is "Wasn't me Sir, perhaps it was a transporter glitch."

That's entirely the point. He didn't give a definite answer but worded it in a way that people would infer something he never said.

Inviere wrote: »

Yeah I'd forgotten about Clues, but that has more reasoning behind it (he was trying to protect everyone on the ship). In The Most Toys, he's lying to protect himself from a murder investigation/court martial, & seems far more selfish. It's a very emotional decision he made, from someone, without emotion.

It seems more cold and calculating to me, nothing actually happened so no one needs to know about it.

Inviere · 02-09-2018 5:57pm

Evade wrote: »

That's entirely the point. He didn't give a definite answer but worded it in a way that people would infer something he never said.

Well, if he did pull the trigger, he certainly didn't admit it

Evade · 02-09-2018 5:59pm

Inviere wrote: »

Well, if he did pull the trigger, he certainly didn't admit it

That's true and he wasn't directly asked if he did which allowed him the wiggle room.

Inviere · 02-09-2018 6:03pm

Evade wrote: »

That's true and he wasn't directly asked if he did which allowed him the wiggle room.

Indeed, a very emotional, and indeed cold as you mention, decision he made. It's not very "Data", so for me, it stands out as an odd conclusion to the episode...were they trying to 'humanise' him that bit more bu adding this complication?

TNG runthrough

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