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28-04-2020, 09:39   #9991
smacl
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I think you're way off the mark there, Nozz. The Wikipedia article for example describes the various categories of hobby and religion doesn't fit in any of them.

There are very many unpaid activities we engage in based on our personally held beliefs, politics, philosophy and sense of personal and social duty that can't reasonably be described as hobbies. We also derive pleasure from many of these. For example is voluntary charitable work a hobby? Is reading bedtime stories to your kids every night a hobby? Is campaigning for human rights a hobby? Is choosing to vote in an election a hobby? Is helping your elderly neighbor with their grocery shopping a hobby? Is engaging in regular physical exercise for physical and mental well-being a hobby?

By your definition, every unpaid waking activity that isn't involuntary is a hobby. Even by the standard dictionary definitions religion fails as it is often not a matter of choice or an activity people derive pleasure from. For example, being born into a strict Muslim majority society where you are forced to live your life in accordance with Sharia law isn't exactly comparable to stamp collecting now is it?
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28-04-2020, 11:13   #9992
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None of the defintitions that Nozz quotes mention money or payment, and it was his mentioning of money that first brought me into this conversation. I don't think whether you get paid for a pursuit has anything to do with whether or not it's a hobby; lots of peopel earn money from their hobbies, but they are still hobbies.

If money isn't the issue, what is? I think what characterises a hobby it that it's relatively inconsequential. Charles Darwin never had a paid job as a scientist or a biologist; he never sought one; he didn't trade in botanical or zoological speciments; he mostly wasn't paid for what he published. But nobody would characterise his life's work as a "hobby", would they?

A few weeks back - before he fell ill - I saw an article in a UK newspaper criticising Boris Johnson for treating his position as PM as a hobby. The criticism was that he didn't take it seriously; he didn't attend meetings or take the time to master briefs; he didn't work weekends; he went off to Mustique for a fortnight; etc, etc. The issue here is not whether we agree with this criticism, but whether we understand it. And I think we do. The allegation is that it amuses or gratifies him to be PM, but he doesn't think the role is as important as it actually is. And the way that's expressed is by saying that he treats it as a hobby.
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28-04-2020, 11:42   #9993
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Originally Posted by smacl View Post
I think you're way off the mark there, Nozz. The Wikipedia article for example describes the various categories of hobby and religion doesn't fit in any of them.
I listed quite a lot from the article it did fit. In post #9979. Renumeration and pay was only one small thing mentioned in some sources. Not all. It does not appear to be a complete prerequisite at all. As peregrinus pointed out, you can actually make money while doing your hobby. I think the pay distinction is more that a "hobby" is not meant to be your main source of income / occupation.

That all said however..... it's wiki. Not a dictionary. It's a useful resource but it is not gospel (heh). It is a collection of community opinions and a useful source to cite as part of a package of citation, but not in isolation and not in lieu of actual dictionary and etymology sources.

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For example is voluntary charitable work a hobby?
Good example and I would say yes. I for example work with refugees in a project called "Refugees on Rails" in which I work with them, entirely for free, to train them "full stack" programming skills. I very much see it as one of my hobbies. I do it in my free time, for pleasure and relaxation and well being, and it requires I take on knowledge I otherwise did not have/need.

All my human rights work with Atheist Ireland. AAI. Atheists Germany. FFRF and more I would see as making up parts of my hobby set too yes. So too would I list any time I spend in the gym or running 10k. Running is one of my hobbies. Though it's currently on hold as I felt my first ever twinge in my knee and I would rather seek medical advice before I run again. Difficult in the current climate of Covid alas. It would be a hobby I would be sad to lose and I am quite angst ridden about it at this time. But I always swore I would stop at the first sign of injury / damage.

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Even by the standard dictionary definitions religion fails as it is often not a matter of choice or an activity people derive pleasure from. For example, being born into a strict Muslim majority society where you are forced to live your life in accordance with Sharia law isn't exactly comparable to stamp collecting now is it?
You are not comparing like with like here, and are instead talking about something where we would be much more in agreement. I would be applying the term "hobby" to pursuits one does of ones own volition. If religion, or religious practice, is being forced upon you and you have no choice in it then absolutely I would lose the term "hobby" and seek another. I would be looking for words in the direction of "Abuse" "indentured" and more to describe that.

Many of the definitions I offered for "hobby" refereed to terms like "free time" and "spare time". Time spent on activities FORCED Upon you sound neither free, nor spare, to me. If I were to be using the word "hobby" in the way you seem to be suggesting I am using it: Then Slavery could be a hobby. Thankfully I am not using it the way you seem to think.

No I think a very necessary distinction to use the word correctly is to distinguish between actions that are forced upon you against your will, and those not. No one appears to be forcing Joe Soap in Ireland to be Catholic or going to their Club House of a Sunday. Though I realise the argument that THEY think their god is forcing them to do so might be the first genuine rebuttal of my usage of the word "hobby" therefore.
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28-04-2020, 11:43   #9994
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None of the defintitions that Nozz quotes mention money or payment, and it was his mentioning of money that first brought me into this conversation.
I see, I did not quickly realise that was the focus of your reply. I actually introduced that solely because it was mentioned on the WIKI page. WIKI is a community effort, so if you feel it is in error by all means go edit the page entry!

The exact sentence on the page was: "A hobby is a regular activity done for enjoyment, typically during one's leisure time, not professionally and not for pay."

I am actually in agreement with you 100% that there is no reason, nor should there be, that getting money for it should mean it is not a hobby. Actually for a short time recently, since I did one for myself, one of my hobbies was building high end PCs that were much better than anything DELL offered for half the price using components off various websites. I would sell these PCs then for more money than I paid to build them, and still 100s less than DELL would charge for the same power.... so my hobby made a profit.

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If money isn't the issue, what is? I think what characterises a hobby it that it's relatively inconsequential.
As I said it brought a wry smile to my face in the context of religion when I read the etymology site on the word and found that the original meaning when "Hobby" was first used on it's own as a word separated from "Hobby Horse" was to indicate an "activity that doesn't go anywhere."

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Charles Darwin never had a paid job as a scientist or a biologist; he never sought one; he didn't trade in botanical or zoological speciments; he mostly wasn't paid for what he published. But nobody would characterise his life's work as a "hobby", would they?
That would be the point I was making too, so we are in more agreement on most of this issue than I first thought. Our actual final differences may be minor.

Most of the definitions of the word distinguish a hobby as an activity that would be distinct from whatever would be classified as your main occupation/career paid or otherwise.

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A few weeks back - before he fell ill - I saw an article in a UK newspaper criticising Boris Johnson for treating his position as PM as a hobby. The criticism was that he didn't take it seriously
I think that does an injustice to the word "hobby" and may be the reason people dislike my usage of it here. If people think the word "hobby" trivialises something to something you do not take seriously, then of course I am going to get push back for using the word as I do. So you have done me a service by showing me a curveball on this I had indeed missed. It does not mean I am not using the term correctly still of course, but it does go a ways to explaining why people are bothered by it.

I do not think it is correct at all to use the word "hobby" to indicate someone is not taking something seriously. Quite the contrary. People's hobby's can often be more important and serious to them than more of or even anything else in their life. I have met a person or two for whom their football team is more important to them than family or career for example. It's still a bloody hobby. My work with refugees I mentioned above has brought a lot of seriousness and meaning to my life. It is still one of my hobbies however.

Just like you would point out no dictionary outside WIKI seems to be including payment as part of the definition of the word "hobby" I would similarly point out that not one definition includes how seriously one takes the pursuit either.
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28-04-2020, 11:53   #9995
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Sadly this thread is about to jump the fence into Boards breaking so a new thread has been opened here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/show...#post113295494
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