The Hazards of Belief

Absolam

Peregrinus wrote: »

The FAI routinely schedules games for Sundays. Bloody Catholics!

I was referring to the fixture list for the Windsor Park grounds rather than the FAI; if the venue never hosts matches on Sundays it might be an indication of why their local Free Presbyterian church is suddenly protesting...

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. But why are you assuming that the specific disregard that is being protested about is a refusal to serve gay customers? I'm suggesting that gay people (and their friends) might reasonably protest about any decision which reflects a disregard of the desires, wishes and preferences of gay people.

It was the first one that came to mind; there have been a few instances where services have been refused because the patron(s) in question were gay (and it offended the business owners' religious sensibilities to serve them, IIRC). I presumed that, as you had mentioned a business in your analogy, the most obvious situation that could be given is by refusing service to gay customers. Is my presumption extraordinary?

Actually, I don't think the IFA hosts Sunday games. Or, I think the current position is, they only schedule games for Sundays if both teams are agreeable - which many teams in the league are not. One of the reasons why the Free Presbyterians and their ilk might feel a particular sense of outrage here is precisely because historically the IFA has been sensitive to their views and values, and they have a somewhat proprietorial attitude towards it.

I see; that's informative. But would I be right in presuming that other sporting events do take place on the Sabbath, usually without protest? GAA or rugby matches, golf tournaments, race meetings? Not a mischievous question, I am not terribly well informed on the matter and would like to know.

I think the argument is basically this; if you have a sizable chunk of potential players/supporters who won't involve themselves in Sunday games, and you go ahead and organise Sunday games, you are effectively deciding that you do not want, or do not care about, the participation of this group. But if your objective is the promotion of the game, you should want the widest possible participation of both players and supporters; you should aim to be inclusive. If people don't want to pay on Sundays, you shouldn't be making decisions about whether their reasons are good enough or not; you should be trying to organise matters so that they don't have to play on Sundays. And they'll be pissed off if they don't perceive you to be at least trying to do that.

Oh Perigrinus, what has happened to your 'You are part of a community that prays' argument of yore? 'You are part of a community that plays on Sundays from time to time' :P

Peregrinus

Windsor Park is the usual venue for NI-hosted internationals, but it in fact belongs to, and is the home ground for, Linfield Football Club, who themselves do not play games on Sundays. And the IFA has never hosted a Sunday home international before this weekend so, whether league or international, there has been little or no Sunday soccer at Linfield. That's not to say that other Sunday events might not have been hosted, of course.

Peregrinus

pauldla wrote: »

It was the first one that came to mind; there have been a few instances where services have been refused because the patron(s) in question were gay (and it offended the business owners' religious sensibilities to serve them, IIRC). I presumed that, as you had mentioned a business in your analogy, the most obvious situation that could be given is by refusing service to gay customers. Is my presumption extraordinary?

Perhaps not extraordinary, but wrong. I explicitly talked about protesting aginst "some decision which disregarded the sensibilities of its gay and lesbian customers ", which is clearly not confined to a refusal-of-service decision. For example, it could be a decision to serve a particular product at a time when gay and lesbian voices are calling for a boycott of that product. Or it could be a decision to participate in an event when gay and lesbian voices are calling for a boycott of that event. Or you could multiply these examples.

pauldla wrote: »

I see; that's informative. But would I be right in presuming that other sporting events do take place on the Sabbath, usually without protest? GAA or rugby matches, golf tournaments, race meetings? Not a mischievous question, I am not terribly well informed on the matter and would like to know.

I'm pretty sure all the other football codes play on Sundays, as does the FAI. There are amateur soccer leagues which don't, both in NI and in the Republic (and, presumably, in other parts of the world).

pauldla wrote: »

Oh Perigrinus, what has happened to your 'You are part of a community that prays' argument of yore? 'You are part of a community that plays on Sundays from time to time' :P

I'd be a non-playing member of the community that plays, I'd have to admit!

Nodin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There was a protest at Windsor Park on Sunday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/protest-takes-place-ahead-of-windsor-park-fixture-1.2157642

There are a few small towns in parts of Scotland where the "wee free" Presbyterians form a majority. Up to recent times (and still in certain places) parks are closed, childrens swings and roundabouts locked with chain and padlock. Public toilets are similarily shut. Because Jesus.

Absolam

Nodin wrote: »

There are a few small towns in parts of Scotland where the "wee free" Presbyterians form a majority. Up to recent times (and still in certain places) parks are closed, childrens swings and roundabouts locked with chain and padlock. Public toilets are similarily shut. Because Jesus.

It ought to be noted though, that the 'wee frees' (and of course the 'wee wee frees') are a somewhat different bunch from Dr Ians splitters, to whom the Tynedale Memorial branch belong.

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

Perhaps not extraordinary, but wrong. I explicitly talked about protesting aginst "some decision which disregarded the sensibilities of its gay and lesbian customers ", which is clearly not confined to a refusal-of-service decision. For example, it could be a decision to serve a particular product at a time when gay and lesbian voices are calling for a boycott of that product. Or it could be a decision to participate in an event when gay and lesbian voices are calling for a boycott of that event. Or you could multiply these examples.

Damn, I hate being wrong. You'd think I'd be used to it by now. However, just to restate my position, I a) agree that they have the right to protest, and b) still don't think your analogy is suitable, stubborn git that I am.

I'm pretty sure all the other football codes play on Sundays, as does the FAI. There are amateur soccer leagues which don't, both in NI and in the Republic (and, presumably, in other parts of the world).

Indeed, but I wasn't clear on the matter. So, drawing on what you have said above, this would not be a protest on games being played on Sunday as such, but just this game, going against a tradition of such games not being played on Sunday? And that this is in some way comparable to protesting for LGBT equality?

I'd be a non-playing member of the community that plays, I'd have to admit!

Oh me too.

Peregrinus

pauldla wrote: »

Indeed, but I wasn't clear on the matter. So, drawing on what you have said above, this would not be a protest on games being played on Sunday as such, but just this game, going against a tradition of such games not being played on Sunday? And that this is in some way comparable to protesting for LGBT equality?

As to whether they'd protest against Sunday sport in general, I can't say. You'l have to ask them. But this particular protest seems to me to be a protest against a decision which tends to exclude or marginalise them in a way that is, at least in principle, not necessary. (The IFA could seek permission to avoid scheduling home internationals for Sundays, and it's hard to see that any sector of the supporter base would be adversely affected by this.) And this in a context in which, up to now, their sensibilities have been accommodated.

The comparison with gays and lesbians arose was made mainly because I had happened to cite the fa'afafine case a couple of posts earlier. That case presents two issues wrapped up in one set of facts, and the two issues happened to be gender identity and sabbath observance. So I ran with gender identity as the comparator in subsequent posts. I wasn't seeking to make the point that the marginalisation of gays is particularly comparable with the marginalisation of sabbath day observance practitioners; it isn't. But they're both perfectly valid examples of marginalisation of minority groups, and the contrast between them serves to make the point that the validity of protests against marginalisation has to depend on more than just how readily with identify with or sympathise with the group being marginalised.

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

As to whether they'd protest against Sunday sport in general, I can't say. You'l have to ask them. But this particular protest seems to me to be a protest against a decision which tends to exclude or marginalise them in a way that is, at least in principle, not necessary. (The IFA could seek permission to avoid scheduling home internationals for Sundays, and it's hard to see that any sector of the supporter base would be adversely affected by this.) And this in a context in which, up to now, their sensibilities have been accommodated.

Indeed. Quite remiss of the IFA I should say, and I doubt they will make the same scheduling mistake again. As such, their protest can be seen to have been successful, can it not?

You must admit, though, that to those outside the flock this protest can seem archaic, outdated, and parochial.

The comparison with gays and lesbians arose was made mainly because I had happened to cite the fa'afafine case a couple of posts earlier. That case presents two issues wrapped up in one set of facts, and the two issues happened to be gender identity and sabbath observance. So I ran with gender identity as the comparator in subsequent posts. I wasn't seeking to make the point that the marginalisation of gays is particularly comparable with the marginalisation of sabbath day observance practitioners; it isn't. But they're both perfectly valid examples of marginalisation of minority groups, and the contrast between them serves to make the point that the validity of protests against marginalisation has to depend on more than just how readily with identify with or sympathise with the group being marginalised.

I see. I must have missed that post (in fact looking back over the thread I see that I did; it must be my aversion to Tonga). On my (admittedly superficial) reading, comprising elements of N. Ireland, business, LGBT and such, my first thought was to those businesses that refuse service to gays, and not to Tongan third-genderers (that is a word, right? I'm just glad I managed to spell LGBT correctly). Mea culpa.

Peregrinus

I'm stunned. How could anybody overlook a post about a Tongan third-gender netball team concerned about sabbath day observance?

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm stunned. How could anybody overlook a post about a Tongan third-gender netball team concerned about sabbath day observance?

I have an aversion to Tonga. A few years ago the eldest was doing a school project on Tonga; he looked up from his textbook and, with the wide-eyed innocence of a six-year-old, asked his portly father "Daddy, are YOU from Tonga?"

Ever since that fateful day.....

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

EUFA

Did you used to work in Press Group newspapers?

Although they occasionally slipped up by allowing the correct spelling in. Sometimes using both in the same paragraph...

recedite

pauldla wrote: »

Indeed. Quite remiss of the IFA I should say, and I doubt they will make the same scheduling mistake again. As such, their protest can be seen to have been successful, can it not?

Its not an IFA mistake, its the IFA introducing sunday fixtures at Linfield's home grounds while pointing to UEFA and saying "not our fault, its out of our hands".
And then the local godmen issuing a call to arms to their parishioners, because after this crossing of the Rubicon, they are likely to slide down the same slippery slope that people down south have slid down;
Parents too busy on Sunday mornings ferrying their young 'uns to sports fixtures to attend churches. Shopping centres becoming the destination of choice on the sabbath day off work. Churches sidelined.
Occasionally you will hear RC priests complaining about it in the ROI, but it has been more of a "people driven" transformation here as opposed to a "top down" one driven by a change of rules, so the RCC have no particular bogeyman to point the finger of blame at.

kylith

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There was a protest at Windsor Park on Sunday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/protest-takes-place-ahead-of-windsor-park-fixture-1.2157642

Damn right too. Sunday's for hurling, everyone knows that.

marienbad

recedite wrote: »

Its not an IFA mistake, its the IFA introducing sunday fixtures at Linfield's home grounds while pointing to UEFA and saying "not our fault, its out of our hands".
And then the local godmen issuing a call to arms to their parishioners, because after this crossing of the Rubicon, they are likely to slide down the same slippery slope that people down south have slid down;
Parents too busy on Sunday mornings ferrying their young 'uns to sports fixtures to attend churches. Shopping centres becoming the destination of choice on the sabbath day off work. Churches sidelined.
Occasionally you will hear RC priests complaining about it in the ROI, but it has been more of a "people driven" transformation here as opposed to a "top down" one driven by a change of rules, so the RCC have no particular bogeyman to point the finger of blame at.

As an aside there was a time when the RCC in the Republic felt strong enough though campaign to have a fixture cancelled , against Yugoslavia (I think) over the incarceration of a cardinal.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm stunned. How could anybody overlook a post about a Tongan third-gender netball team concerned about sabbath day observance?

Its always an education, this forum :pac:

PopePalpatine

marienbad wrote: »

As an aside there was a time when the RCC in the Republic felt strong enough though campaign to have a fixture cancelled , against Yugoslavia (I think) over the incarceration of a cardinal.

Funnily enough, I just looked up that story on History Ireland, and that cardinal sucked up to the Ustase puppet regime in Axis-occupied Croatia.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

As an aside there was a time when the RCC in the Republic felt strong enough though campaign to have a fixture cancelled , against Yugoslavia (I think) over the incarceration of a cardinal.

Did the Cardinal go in with both feet up and studs showing?

Brian Shanahan

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because an international organistation like EUFA is, or ought to be, sensitive to local feelings and customs?

Whether people ought to play football on Sunday or not is not EUFA's problem. But if, in a particular society, there's a sizable chunk of people who won't play on a Sunday, or won't attend a game on a Sunday, then that's obviously an issue that people who want to organise football matches would be stupid to ignore. It makes no difference, for this purpose, whether people's feelings about Sunday football are religious, cultural or other. The protest in this case was essentially "you could have sought an exemption, and by not doing so you disregarded the wishes and desires that section of your followers who would like to attend this game, were it not organised for a Sunday."

This isn't just for bible-thumpers. We had the World Gay Games in Sydney a few years ago. Tonga sent a fa'afafine netball team. Fa'afafine is a third gender - fa'afafine are biologically male, but present as (mostly) female and fill (mostly) female social and sexual roles. Their fixtures had to be rescheduled because they wouldn't play on Sundays, out of respect for the Queen of Tonga, who is a Methodist.

So you've got no valid argument. Nice to see that at least you're consistent.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Did the Cardinal go in with both feet up and studs showing?

I presume he was on his knees doing what they like best

Peregrinus

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So you've got no valid argument. Nice to see that at least you're consistent.

And not just me, Brian. :rolleyes:

pauldla

It's the End of Days. Again. Or the end of the world. Or the end of something. And all because of the bloody Moon.

“THE sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD comes.” That day could be this Sunday.
The biblical passage of Joel 2:31 has been stirring up a frenzy of late, thanks to a best-selling book and newly released documentary by controversial American pastor John Hagee.
He’s convinced “something dramatic” is about to happen in Israel “that will change the course of history in the Middle East and impact the whole world”.
And it’s an event that is being heralded in the heavens: A succession of four “blood moons” — or a tetrad — is neatly divided by a total eclipse of the sun. The third of these blood moons falls in the middle of Easter — this weekend.

link

Peregrinus

Sounds risky. Better make sure to carry an umbrella that day.

Hotblack Desiato

Isn't the belief that the movement of planets influences events on Earth explicitly condemned in the bible?

pauldla

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Isn't the belief that the movement of planets influences events on Earth explicitly condemned in the bible?

Ah yeah. Along with lots and lots of other stuff. :pac:

robindch

Not strictly religious, but certainly "traditional" - it's the biennial "Cutting Season" in Tanzania - words etc, fail.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31604025

Turtwig

Now that Cern has found the force does that make the world's religions all got it so terribly wrong?

All Hail Jediism.

Hotblack Desiato

Turtwig wrote: »

All Hail Jediism.

Naah. Get funky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv6XZWTsYVg

Nodin

Yez may have seen him on Sky at some stage

"The Rev. Robert H. Schuller, the televangelist who drew millions of followers with his “Hour of Power” broadcasts from the Crystal Cathedral, the glittering house of worship recognized around the world as the locus of his signature brand of motivational Christianity, died April 2 at a care facility in Artesia, Calif. He was 88.
A daughter, Carol Schuller Milner, confirmed his death to the Associated Press. His family announced in 2013 that he had esophageal cancer.

By the time of Rev. Schuller’s death, his ministry, based in Garden Grove, Calif., had filed for bankruptcy and largely crumbled. It was the victim, by most accounts, of overexpansion, declining popular interest and internal strife precipitated by his retirement in 2006."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/robert-h-schuller-hour-of-power-televangelist-dies-at-88/2015/04/02/f773fa3c-d943-11e4-b3f2-607bd612aeac_story.html?tid=sm_fb

silverharp

Egyptian TV Host Kicks Guest Out of Studio for Expressing Controversial Ideas on Religion , its from 2014 but I hadnt seen it before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFyFNvs2LDY