Tiered Championship

Donald Trumped · 27-05-2019 3:55pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

He's completely out of touch with the majority of counties
easy when he is involved with a Dublin club

Louth is a very urban county, population wise
What strategy have the GAA funded to improve the GAA in both the large towns there?
Same with the large towns in Westmeath, Laois, Kildare, Wicklow
answer? sweet feck all

Horan also announced that a fellow Dub, Eddie Sullivan would be leading the new GAA fixtures review committee. Personally I don't know about Sullivan, he may be capable, but imo why didn't they give this gig to someone from outside Dublin, where the problem about gaa fixtures is equally as bad or if not worse outside the pale?

Agreed with everything that you said nice_guy80. Horan is completely the wrong guy for the job to promote a "tier 2" championship. Out of touch he must certainly is and his attitude about the "Newbridge or nowhere" fiasco is proof of a man that doesn't get what the meaning of the grassroots of the GAA actually is.

I also agree about that the GAA hierarchy has done sfa about promoting GAA in those counties that you mention. Not just the urban areas you say but in rural clubs in particular, where they feel let down by a Dublin orientated executive that are not listening to their genuine concerns about the future of their club and over the funding or the lack of in their counties.

The GAA is dying in many counties with emigration in rural Ireland, with the ongoing issue of clubs struggling to field teams a huge problem. This should be a massive priority for the GAA. Maybe if Horan was more occupied with this major issue, rather that promoting a "tiered championship" that will be counter-productive in so many ways, then the GAA top brass can gain some respect.

I have zero confidence in Horan and co in delivering real and substantial change in relation to the many challenges facing rural clubs in particular and putting more resources into other counties outside Dublin. These are huge issues and until they address this imbalance, then its the GAA grassroots that suffers, with many feeling discontent over the way the organization is being run from the top. Without the grassroots, the GAA will die at the expense of other sports.

27-05-2019 4:27pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

There's an appetite for it amongst the 'bigger' counties. Let's not forget that the GAA is all about money these days, it's run as a business. That's the angle they're taking on this. They see the 14,000 who showed up for a double header including Dublin, they see the dwindling attendances. That's why the super 8's were introduced and that's why this is their next step. We have to stop them, everybody should be against this, even the 'bigger' counties. Let's tackle the real problem.

I should hope that it is for the sake of the survival of the GAA going forward. How do you honestly expect it to be different in the 21st century?

Fr Tod Umptious · 27-05-2019 5:05pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

And by the way, the B championship was tried already. They also tried the Tommy Murphy Cup. Players DIDN'T buy into that and they won't this time either.

In both the above they were secondary competitions that teams entered once they were eliminated from the main competition.

That is not a good system
Once knocked out of the main competition teams find it very difficult to get motivated to play in the secondary competition

If a multi tiered system is to work then the teams start and finish that season in the same competition.

OldMrBrennan83 · 27-05-2019 5:09pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

In both the above they were secondary competitions that teams entered once they were eliminated from the main competition.

That is not a good system
Once knocked out of the main competition teams find it very difficult to get motivated to play in the secondary competition

If a multi tiered system is to work then the teams start and finish that season in the same competition.

Exactly, it needs to be a goal to something bigger that's prepared for long-term by counties, not a consolation.

The weak counties don't deserve a God-given place at the top table and the second tier will show which of them are actually bothered about getting there deservedly.

_

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 5:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I should hope that it is for the sake of the survival of the GAA going forward. How do you honestly expect it to be different in the 21st century?

How about you start answering some questions?

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 5:19pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

In both the above they were secondary competitions that teams entered once they were eliminated from the main competition.

That is not a good system
Once knocked out of the main competition teams find it very difficult to get motivated to play in the secondary competition

If a multi tiered system is to work then the teams start and finish that season in the same competition.

The majority of players and supporters from these counties don't want that. It's supporters from Mayo, Kerry, Dublin etc who want these other counties to be demoted.

27-05-2019 6:01pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

How about you start answering some questions?

Think its your proposals that needing clarifying in fairness. How much money is needed, timescale, what to do if it isnt working etc? If you think the GAA “being run like a business” is a justified overall negative criticism in the 21st century, then Gaelic games will be in trouble when viewed against competing sports on this island and further afield.

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 6:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Think its your proposals that needing clarifying in fairness. How much money is needed, timescale, what to do if it isnt working etc? If you think the GAA “being run like a business” is a justified overall negative criticism in the 21st century, then Gaelic games will be in trouble when viewed against competing sports on this island and further afield.

What proposals? You're the one pushing the tiered championship because Mayo got knocked out by Roscommon. It's time those advocating this monstrosity got called out. What are their motives?
And money is vital to the GAA but the strength of our games in all counties should be the priority, that's not what's happening.

27-05-2019 6:14pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

What proposals? You're the one pushing the tiered championship because Mayo got knocked out by Roscommon. It's time those advocating this monstrosity got called out. What are their motives?
And money is vital to the GAA but the strength of our games in all counties should be the priority, that's not what's happening.

If you read back through the thread I was proposing the same before Mayo v Roscommon. So you appear to be against a tiered structure for the GAA’s knock-out competitions (whatever about the leagues)? How would you organise the hurling and club tournaments as a matter of interest?

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 6:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you read back through the thread I was proposing the same before Mayo v Roscommon. So you appear to be against a tiered structure for the GAA’s knock-out competitions (whatever about the leagues)? How would you organise the hurling and club tournaments as a matter of interest?

So you wanted Roscommon removed before you played them and especially now afterwards. Is it because of your awful record in Connacht recently that you want an easier route to Croke Park?

Fr Tod Umptious · 27-05-2019 6:23pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

What proposals? You're the one pushing the tiered championship because Mayo got knocked out by Roscommon. It's time those advocating this monstrosity got called out. What are their motives?
And money is vital to the GAA but the strength of our games in all counties should be the priority, that's not what's happening.

I'm pretty sure Mayo did not get knocked out by Roscommon.
They lost to Roscommon but are still in the All Ireland championship thanks to the qualifiers system.

I'd also wager that Roscommon would be in the same tier as Mayo in the tiered championship based on their recent championship form.

27-05-2019 6:26pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

So you wanted Roscommon removed before you played them and especially now afterwards. Is it because of your awful record in Connacht recently that you want an easier route to Croke Park?

I may be a Mayo supporter but I’m not weaving a fantastic conspiracy in promoting a tiered structure in order to keep them at the top table as your rampant paranoia in this thread appears to suggest. If they aren’t good enough, down they go to a level they can survive at and then build to go up again based on their own merits.

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 7:13pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Mayo did not get knocked out by Roscommon.
They lost to Roscommon but are still in the All Ireland championship thanks to the qualifiers system.

I'd also wager that Roscommon would be in the same tier as Mayo in the tiered championship based on their recent championship form.

Brolly was trying to get rid of them last year. Maybe it's the qualifiers you want to get rid of then? Sick of having to travel around the country, you want an easy path to Croke Park?

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 7:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I may be a Mayo supporter but I’m not weaving a fantastic conspiracy in promoting a tiered structure in order to keep them at the top table as your rampant paranoia in this thread appears to suggest. If they aren’t good enough, down they go to a level they can survive at and then build to go up again based on their own merits.

Well what difference does it make to you then? There's big beatings in the current set up, there was big beatings in the super 8's and there would be big beatings in this breakaway group you support.

Fr Tod Umptious · 27-05-2019 7:23pm

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

I quite like this layout and calendar. Plus the naming is right as it's what has worked for decades at club level.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0524/1051431-future-of-football-blueprint-for-a-3-tier-championship/

I don't mind the concept but I hate the calendar

Now way should you be playing the All Ireland final in mid July.
It was bad enough having the quarter final on St Swithen's Day in 2018.

Play the inter county championship throughout the summer when people are around and kids are off school.
The summer is only getting started in mid July.

Let counties that are no longer in the championship get on with their club championships, no need for them to be waiting for September to finish theirs

Fr Tod Umptious · 27-05-2019 7:32pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Brolly was trying to get rid of them last year. Maybe it's the qualifiers you want to get rid of then? Sick of having to travel around the country, you want an easy path to Croke Park?

I'd argue that the qualifiers have served Mayo well this past few seasons

And compared to the provincial system the qualifiers have allowed the likes of Westmeath, Fermanagh, Sligo, Wexford, Tipp, Limerick and Clare play some big games in the latter stages of the championship that they would not have had otherwise.

But your posts are not contributing anything to the debate

Your stock response when challenged is "so you want to get rid of <insert team/system/etc here>"

What is your problem with a revised system ?

Is it because some teams that realistically never had a chance to winning the All Ireland Senior Football Championship will technically not have a chance of winning it until they reach the "top tier" ?

Or is it because teams that to this point never get anything other than cursory media coverage will continue to only get cursory media coverage ?

I'm not sure a tiered system will work, but I'm willing to try it because anything would be better than the currently system where geography and one thousand year old boundaries determine the ease or otherwise of advancing to a championship title.

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 7:39pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'd argue that the qualifiers have served Mayo well this past few seasons

And compared to the provincial system the qualifiers have allowed the likes of Westmeath, Fermanagh, Sligo, Wexford, Tipp, Limerick and Clare play some big games in the latter stages of the championship that they would not have had otherwise.

But your posts are not contributing anything to the debate

Your stock response when challenged is "so you want to get rid of <insert team/system/etc here>"

What is your problem with a revised system ?

Is it because some teams that realistically never had a chance to winning the All Ireland Senior Football Championship will technically not have a chance of winning it until they reach the "top tier" ?

Or is it because teams that to this point never get anything other than cursory media coverage will continue to only get cursory media coverage ?

I'm not sure a tiered system will work, but I'm willing to try it because anything would be better than the currently system where geography and one thousand year old boundaries determine the ease or otherwise of advancing to a championship title.

My issue is that it is ignoring the real issue! This tiered championshop is just nonsense. You'll have your new top tier but Dublin will still win it every year and start getting more and more dominant. What then? Keep shrinking the top tier until you're left with teams that can stay within 10 points of them?

The real issue facing the GAA is the financial situation we have and the inequality of it. Everyone knows about the money Dublin have got but there's also the money Mayo and Kerry are spending. That's not sustainable and it's the wrong path the GAA has gone down. That's what has caused this split. Look at the strength of the provincial championships prior to 2005, then compare it to now.

The Lost Sheep · 27-05-2019 8:11pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Louth have won 3 All Ireland's. Hurling has a limited number of teams that compete in the real championship, this is not a good thing. Why do you want the same for football?
People have to keep in mind that this will be a permanent split. There will be no recovery from this. The teams clamering to be separated from the rest will push further and further ahead.
It would be absolutely disastrous for Gaelic football in the counties booted out but also for those wanting to boot them out. It's short term thinking. You have visions of non stop top class games, full houses to watch Kerry v Dublin every year.
The novelty will wear off, the crowds will dwindle. Something has to be done to up the standards of football in counties not at the top. Give them a plan and finance to implement it. This is the way forward, demoting them is not.

Louths 3 all ireland wins were 1910, 1912 and 1957 which was their last final appearance and they havent won Leinster since then and been in so few finals as well. Hurling has tiered championships and teams can find their level and win a national title at the appropriate level and not the ****fest that is football where huge number of counties virtually every year play 2, maybe 3 games if get lucky draw, in their main competition of the year
If you have properly tiered competitions where teams have relative chance of success and they get promoted you then have better competition all round

Deleted User wrote: »

Two of those were in 1910 & 1912, the last in 1957. Louth will not win an AI again in the current setup. Promotion in any tiered proposal gives counties a chance to aim for the top tier and relegation will ensure less chance of dead rubber games happening. All finals to be in Croke Pk on AI weekend as well to give them meaning for the players.

exactly. win win for everyone involved.

Farawayhome wrote: »

Yes, so it's possible. Dublin had won 1 All Ireland in nearly 30 years, now look at them. How did they improve? Now do the same to the rest.
You think there will be no more one sided games in this breakaway championship? Did you see the super 8's last year? Roscommon and Kildare got some batterings. Do you want to make it a 5 or 6 team breakaway?
Meaning for the players? Promising to play on All Ireland weekends? That's been heard before. Let me ask you, how much of the Westmeath v Kerry Joe McDonagh cup game did you see on the Sunday Game last night?

How much help did Dublin get that other counties wont ever get? If you have some form of tiered competition smaller/weaker counties get to improve and play their own level and go up to higher level and play better sides in their own time

Farawayhome wrote: »

You're comparing apples and oranges. The inter county game is one where everyone has competed at the top level and where the huge majority have had some form of success. If we go back to the 90's and 00's, the amount of counties challenging for honours was huge. We had a vibrant competition. That's what we should be aiming for. Let's look at what's changed since then and tackle that problem.

Huge majority had some form of success when though?
5 Leinster counties have won the provincial championship in this century and apart from Offaly in 97 you are going back to the 50s
Connacht has 7 teams(including NY/London) and only Roscommon/Galway/Mayo have really won the title. Munster is Kerrys and Cork. Ulster is only real competitive province.

Farawayhome wrote: »

Another Mayo poster advocating the tiered championship. It's mostly coming from the so called stronger counties. They want to remove the 'weaker' counties out of their way so they can get their big days out in Croke Park without any hassle. After the weekend you're thinking if only Roscommon were removed from the championship.
That's the reality of it, why are supporters and officials from these counties being so vocal? What's in it for them? They don't care about the health of Gaelic Football in the 'weaker' counties. They're out for themselves and that's why those not apart of the 'elite' need to stand together and put a stop to this.

Its far more than Mayo fans. Changes are from more than fans of stronger counties. Changes to a tiered competition aid everyone.

Farawayhome wrote: »

And by the way, the B championship was tried already. They also tried the Tommy Murphy Cup. Players DIDN'T buy into that and they won't this time either.

If you have a proper system and not the mess that that was then they will buy into it over time

Farawayhome wrote: »

My issue is that it is ignoring the real issue! This tiered championshop is just nonsense. You'll have your new top tier but Dublin will still win it every year and start getting more and more dominant. What then? Keep shrinking the top tier until you're left with teams that can stay within 10 points of them?

The real issue facing the GAA is the financial situation we have and the inequality of it. Everyone knows about the money Dublin have got but there's also the money Mayo and Kerry are spending. That's not sustainable and it's the wrong path the GAA has gone down. That's what has caused this split. Look at the strength of the provincial championships prior to 2005, then compare it to now.

Dublin may win the top title many years but its far better situation for the smaller/weaker counties who have a realistic chance of competing in something rather than the odd qualifier run that is all they can realistically look forward to in the currnt set up

conor05 · 27-05-2019 8:44pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Two of those were in 1910 & 1912, the last in 1957. Louth will not win an AI again in the current setup. Promotion in any tiered proposal gives counties a chance to aim for the top tier and relegation will ensure less chance of dead rubber games happening. All finals to be in Croke Pk on AI weekend as well to give them meaning for the players.

Yes, so it's possible. Dublin had won 1 All Ireland in nearly 30 years, now look at them. How did they improve? Now do the same to the rest.
You think there will be no more one sided games in this breakaway championship? Did you see the super 8's last year? Roscommon and Kildare got some batterings. Do you want to make it a 5 or 6 team breakaway?
Meaning for the players? Promising to play on All Ireland weekends? That's been heard before. Let me ask you, how much of the Westmeath v Kerry Joe McDonagh cup game did you see on the Sunday Game last night?

TG4 showed a fair bit of highlights on Kerry v Westmeath tonight ag 8pm.

Atleast it’s a start because the Joe McDonagh is a very good standard of hurling.

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 10:37pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Louths 3 all ireland wins were 1910, 1912 and 1957 which was their last final appearance and they havent won Leinster since then and been in so few finals as well. Hurling has tiered championships and teams can find their level and win a national title at the appropriate level and not the ****fest that is football where huge number of counties virtually every year play 2, maybe 3 games if get lucky draw, in their main competition of the year
If you have properly tiered competitions where teams have relative chance of success and they get promoted you then have better competition all round
exactly. win win for everyone involved.

How much help did Dublin get that other counties wont ever get? If you have some form of tiered competition smaller/weaker counties get to improve and play their own level and go up to higher level and play better sides in their own time

Huge majority had some form of success when though?
5 Leinster counties have won the provincial championship in this century and apart from Offaly in 97 you are going back to the 50s
Connacht has 7 teams(including NY/London) and only Roscommon/Galway/Mayo have really won the title. Munster is Kerrys and Cork. Ulster is only real competitive province.

Its far more than Mayo fans. Changes are from more than fans of stronger counties. Changes to a tiered competition aid everyone.

If you have a proper system and not the mess that that was then they will buy into it over time

Dublin may win the top title many years but its far better situation for the smaller/weaker counties who have a realistic chance of competing in something rather than the odd qualifier run that is all they can realistically look forward to in the currnt set up

You're talking about division 4 teams for the most part there. As I said, Dublin won one All Ireland in nearly 30 years, now look. How did that happen?

Why can't other counties get the help that Dublin got? That's not how it works, you play at a level long enough and then that is your level. Look at Offaly in hurling.

Offaly, Kildare, Meath(Louth have one of theirs), Westmeath, Laois and Dublin were winning Leinster championships in the 90's and 00's. It was an exciting and open competition. New York and London can't be included so Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo and even Leitrim have won Connacht titles in the 90's and 00's. In Ulster, Donegal, Derry, Down, Tyrone, Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan have all won Ulsters in the 90's and 00's. Fermanagh have got to an All Ireland semi final and making great strides. We've already discussed the improvements made in Clare and Tipperary despite Clare in 92 been the last to win Munster apart from Cork and Kerry. So that's 21 counties who have won provincial championships from the 90's till now. Louth should have won one, Fermanagh and Limerick went very close and others like Tipperary are putting in huge effort. That's all very recent history.

No, a tiered championship would kill Gaelic Football in many counties. Player drop outs are already bad, this will increase it ten fold. Players don't want this. It's in no way beneficial to 'weaker' counties.

Let's sort this out and get to the root of the problem. Things have changed big time over the last decade that has left us in this situation and the major player in that change is money. Counties like Mayo, Kerry, Donegal, Tyrone and especially Dublin have pushed ahead with the aid of huge resources. This is the issue that should be tackled. Other counties shouldn't be punished for these counties buying their way ahead.

Farawayhome · 27-05-2019 10:39pm

conor05 wrote: »

TG4 showed a fair bit of highlights on Kerry v Westmeath tonight ag 8pm.

Atleast it’s a start because the Joe McDonagh is a very good standard of hurling.

That's good.

The Lost Sheep · 27-05-2019 11:06pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

You're talking about division 4 teams for the most part there. As I said, Dublin won one All Ireland in nearly 30 years, now look. How did that happen?

Why can't other counties get the help that Dublin got? That's not how it works, you play at a level long enough and then that is your level. Look at Offaly in hurling.

Offaly, Kildare, Meath(Louth have one of theirs), Westmeath, Laois and Dublin were winning Leinster championships in the 90's and 00's. It was an exciting and open competition. New York and London can't be included so Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo and even Leitrim have won Connacht titles in the 90's and 00's. In Ulster, Donegal, Derry, Down, Tyrone, Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan have all won Ulsters in the 90's and 00's. Fermanagh have got to an All Ireland semi final and making great strides. We've already discussed the improvements made in Clare and Tipperary despite Clare in 92 been the last to win Munster apart from Cork and Kerry. So that's 21 counties who have won provincial championships from the 90's till now. Louth should have won one, Fermanagh and Limerick went very close and others like Tipperary are putting in huge effort. That's all very recent history.
No, a tiered championship would kill Gaelic Football in many counties. Player drop outs are already bad, this will increase it ten fold. Players don't want this. It's in no way beneficial to 'weaker' counties.

Let's sort this out and get to the root of the problem. Things have changed big time over the last decade that has left us in this situation and the major player in that change is money. Counties like Mayo, Kerry, Donegal, Tyrone and especially Dublin have pushed ahead with the aid of huge resources. This is the issue that should be tackled. Other counties shouldn't be punished for these counties buying their way ahead.

This change isnt to punish these other counties its to assist them. What use is the top counties winning by 15-20 points year on year against the smaller/weaker counties.
These counties were always ahead(in many cases) and money wasnt the reason then and isnt reason they are ahead now
Offaly won one in the 90s.
Why would a tiered competition kill the sport in some counties? Because instead of maybe hoping for the odd shock some years or a run in the qualifiers they would get significant number of games in a competitive competition they would have a chance of winning? If that kills the sport then there is a lot more to worry about

Coillte_Bhoy · 28-05-2019 10:08am

Farawayhome wrote: »

Another Mayo poster advocating the tiered championship. It's mostly coming from the so called stronger counties. They want to remove the 'weaker' counties out of their way so they can get their big days out in Croke Park without any hassle. After the weekend you're thinking if only Roscommon were removed from the championship.
That's the reality of it, why are supporters and officials from these counties being so vocal? What's in it for them? They don't care about the health of Gaelic Football in the 'weaker' counties. They're out for themselves and that's why those not apart of the 'elite' need to stand together and put a stop to this.

Thats bollocks, Roscommon are certainly a top ten team at the least ,of course they would be in any top tier

nice_guy80 · 28-05-2019 10:18am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

This change isnt to punish these other counties its to assist them. What use is the top counties winning by 15-20 points year on year against the smaller/weaker counties.
These counties were always ahead(in many cases) and money wasnt the reason then and isnt reason they are ahead now
Offaly won one in the 90s.
Why would a tiered competition kill the sport in some counties? Because instead of maybe hoping for the odd shock some years or a run in the qualifiers they would get significant number of games in a competitive competition they would have a chance of winning? If that kills the sport then there is a lot more to worry about

Louth should have won a Leinster title in 2010
in fact, the GAA robbed them of it through inept officiating and a refusal to grant a replay

Coillte_Bhoy · 28-05-2019 10:21am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Louth should have won a Leinster title in 2010
in fact, the GAA robbed them of it through inept officiating and a refusal to grant a replay

What a ridiculous comment, 'the GAA' as if it was one big conspiracy, the officials ****ed up of their own accord

harpsman · 28-05-2019 11:15am

Farawayhome wrote: »

You're comparing apples and oranges. The inter county game is one where everyone has competed at the top level and where the huge majority have had some form of success. If we go back to the 90's and 00's, the amount of counties challenging for honours was huge. We had a vibrant competition. That's what we should be aiming for. Let's look at what's changed since then and tackle that problem.

I wouldn’t agree that it’s apples and oranges. Just because something has always been done a particular way isn’t a good enough reason to continue doing it that way.
The increasingly professional approach taken by top teams is causing the increased gap in standards. I’m not sure if it’s possible for all 32 teams to copy that.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 11:25am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

This change isnt to punish these other counties its to assist them. What use is the top counties winning by 15-20 points year on year against the smaller/weaker counties.
These counties were always ahead(in many cases) and money wasnt the reason then and isnt reason they are ahead now
Offaly won one in the 90s.
Why would a tiered competition kill the sport in some counties? Because instead of maybe hoping for the odd shock some years or a run in the qualifiers they would get significant number of games in a competitive competition they would have a chance of winning? If that kills the sport then there is a lot more to worry about

Let's stick with the evidence we have. These counties were not always ahead. Way back in the bad old days, it was Kerry v Dublin virtually every year. It all changed. From 1987-2010, 10 different counties won the All Ireland. I've already pointed out where 21 counties won provincial championships since the 90's. That all changed and we know why.
We can also look at the hurling for more evidence. The tiered competitions were promised all sorts. Huge promotion of the competitions, big days out on All Ireland semi final day etc. Top tier counties that were dropped down to a level below have fallen off a cliff. Offaly is a disaster but other counties like Laois and Antrim also went backwards. Like I've said, you play at a level and that becomes your level.
There's also no way out of it for the teams outside the Liam McCarthy. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh, they have to beat one of the other Munster teams in a play off to go up a level. In Leinster, a county every year gets to go into the championship proper to take a few beatings and be sent back down. Soon that avenue will be blocked as well. This is the truth of the tired championship, it's a permanent move. Counties kicked out are finished at the top level. There's no way back.
Now, instead of looking at this nonsense proposal we should be focusing on the real issue. Money has changed the game. Money has caused the massive split in standards. It's time we sorted that out.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 11:26am

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Thats bollocks, Roscommon are certainly a top ten team at the least ,of course they would be in any top tier

Like I said, it'd be nice to not have to go through the qualifiers now wouldn't it? Let's cut through the nonsense. The 'stronger' counties couldn't care less about the 'weaker' ones. They just want them out of the way. What other reason is there?

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 11:28am

harpsman wrote: »

I wouldn’t agree that it’s apples and oranges. Just because something has always been done a particular way isn’t a good enough reason to continue doing it that way.
The increasingly professional approach taken by top teams is causing the increased gap in standards. I’m not sure if it’s possible for all 32 teams to copy that.

That's what we should be tackling! Why let the top teams away with their 'professional approach'? This is an amateur sport.

dr.kenneth noisewater · 28-05-2019 12:12pm

I think the only way a tiered championship would work is if they are run off on different days and sold as separate TV deals. Tier 2 runs on Saturday and Tier 1 on Sunday (or alternating weekends). Let Virgin or TG4 get tier 2 and keep it off subscription channels.

People say it will kill football in weaker counties but thats already happening. Look at Longford this year, decent league and now 3 players are off to the US so arent playing championship. They're perfectly entitled to do that and I'd recommend a summer in the US to everyone but would they be doing it if they thought they had any chance of winning or even getting to a Leinster final? I doubt it. In my own county, Westmeath, our captain last year dropped off the panel after the league to head over.
The same is happening in many weaker counties every year where lads arent committing or dropping out after the league to head off to the US. I dont think comparing the different amount of provincial winners in the 90'/00's is relevant as the game has moved on so much in the last 10 years its completely different game. I still think theres a place for the provincials(and the winners should get to enter the main draw regardless) but they are fairly irrelevant for the most part.

Senior, Intermediate and Junior works for clubs across the land, why cant it work for county level? If the desire and talent is there then a team can get to senior and have a shot at an all Ireland, if its not then you built it up to try progress bit by bit until they're ready.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 12:23pm

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

I think the only way a tiered championship would work is if they are run off on different days and sold as separate TV deals. Tier 2 runs on Saturday and Tier 1 on Sunday (or alternating weekends). Let Virgin or TG4 get tier 2 and keep it off subscription channels.

People say it will kill football in weaker counties but thats already happening. Look at Longford this year, decent league and now 3 players are off to the US so arent playing championship. They're perfectly entitled to do that and I'd recommend a summer in the US to everyone but would they be doing it if they thought they had any chance of winning or even getting to a Leinster final? I doubt it. In my own county, Westmeath, our captain last year dropped off the panel after the league to head over.
The same is happening in many weaker counties every year where lads arent committing or dropping out after the league to head off to the US. I dont think comparing the different amount of provincial winners in the 90'/00's is relevant as the game has moved on so much in the last 10 years its completely different game. I still think theres a place for the provincials(and the winners should get to enter the main draw regardless) but they are fairly irrelevant for the most part.

Senior, Intermediate and Junior works for clubs across the land, why cant it work for county level? If the desire and talent is there then a team can get to senior and have a shot at an all Ireland, if its not then you built it up to try progress bit by bit until they're ready.

And you think the drop outs will magically stop if there's a tiered championship? They will increase! If thery're not showing up for the real championship, they definitely won't for mickey mouse competitions. Standards will slip year on year and there will be no way back. Westmeath won the Leinster in 04, just one of them means far more than anything in a tiered championship.
What changed from 04 when Westmeath beat Dublin on the way to winning the title? How are Dublin now destroying every team in Leinster to win every title since 05 bar 1? You answer that question correctly and you will see the real problem in the GAA and the one that needs tackling.

slegs · 28-05-2019 12:36pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

And you think the drop outs will magically stop if there's a tiered championship? They will increase! If thery're not showing up for the real championship, they definitely won't for mickey mouse competitions. Standards will slip year on year and there will be no way back. Westmeath won the Leinster in 04, just one of them means far more than anything in a tiered championship.
What changed from 04 when Westmeath beat Dublin on the way to winning the title? How are Dublin now destroying every team in Leinster to win every title since 05 bar 1? You answer that question correctly and you will see the real problem in the GAA and the one that needs tackling.

Its certainly not unanimous like you are trying to paint that all teams and players in the lower tier wont like it. Many coaches and players from lower teams have been saying for years that a second tier championship is needed. Yes, there are many voices against it but I don't see any other option now. The gap is too wide and the odd win by a lower team in the early stages of the championship doesnt change the fact the gap exists. You are always going to have the odd surprise when you have a back door second chance. Its not like the old days when you surprised someone and knocked them out and it actually meant something ( and your route further was easier as a result ).

Your notion that somehow we can restrain the so called elite teams methods and resources is not practical. Who is going to police that? We will be back to shady dealings and brown envelopes everywhere. If it was only about money then wealthy counties like Galway, Cork, Kildare and Meath would be winning more.

Coillte_Bhoy · 28-05-2019 12:45pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Like I said, it'd be nice to not have to go through the qualifiers now wouldn't it? Let's cut through the nonsense. The 'stronger' counties couldn't care less about the 'weaker' ones. They just want them out of the way. What other reason is there?

Of curse it would have been much better to have beaten Roscommon, thats nothing to do with it. They would currently be a Tier 1 team anyway.

And why i would want the weaker teams 'out of the way'? Im quite happy that we hopefully will get a weak team in the first qualifier and assuming we get through that, then also in the one after that. Couple of easier games might help us get back on track but it think it would be a fairer system if we were to play teams at roughly our own level, and if that was the case in the qualifiers, id be very worried about our chances right now

Coillte_Bhoy · 28-05-2019 12:49pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Let's stick with the evidence we have. These counties were not always ahead. Way back in the bad old days, it was Kerry v Dublin virtually every year. It all changed. From 1987-2010, 10 different counties won the All Ireland. I've already pointed out where 21 counties won provincial championships since the 90's. That all changed and we know why.
We can also look at the hurling for more evidence. The tiered competitions were promised all sorts. Huge promotion of the competitions, big days out on All Ireland semi final day etc. Top tier counties that were dropped down to a level below have fallen off a cliff. Offaly is a disaster but other counties like Laois and Antrim also went backwards. Like I've said, you play at a level and that becomes your level.
There's also no way out of it for the teams outside the Liam McCarthy. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh, they have to beat one of the other Munster teams in a play off to go up a level. In Leinster, a county every year gets to go into the championship proper to take a few beatings and be sent back down. Soon that avenue will be blocked as well. This is the truth of the tired championship, it's a permanent move. Counties kicked out are finished at the top level. There's no way back.
Now, instead of looking at this nonsense proposal we should be focusing on the real issue. Money has changed the game. Money has caused the massive split in standards. It's time we sorted that out.

This is the biggest lie you are constantly peddling, because promotion and relegation would be an intrinsic part of any properly structured tiered system. It wouldnt be anything like the hurling, the gap between the elite and the rest
is not the same

dr.kenneth noisewater · 28-05-2019 2:47pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

I think the only way a tiered championship would work is if they are run off on different days and sold as separate TV deals. Tier 2 runs on Saturday and Tier 1 on Sunday (or alternating weekends). Let Virgin or TG4 get tier 2 and keep it off subscription channels.

People say it will kill football in weaker counties but thats already happening. Look at Longford this year, decent league and now 3 players are off to the US so arent playing championship. They're perfectly entitled to do that and I'd recommend a summer in the US to everyone but would they be doing it if they thought they had any chance of winning or even getting to a Leinster final? I doubt it. In my own county, Westmeath, our captain last year dropped off the panel after the league to head over.
The same is happening in many weaker counties every year where lads arent committing or dropping out after the league to head off to the US. I dont think comparing the different amount of provincial winners in the 90'/00's is relevant as the game has moved on so much in the last 10 years its completely different game. I still think theres a place for the provincials(and the winners should get to enter the main draw regardless) but they are fairly irrelevant for the most part.

Senior, Intermediate and Junior works for clubs across the land, why cant it work for county level? If the desire and talent is there then a team can get to senior and have a shot at an all Ireland, if its not then you built it up to try progress bit by bit until they're ready.

And you think the drop outs will magically stop if there's a tiered championship? They will increase! If thery're not showing up for the real championship, they definitely won't for mickey mouse competitions. Standards will slip year on year and there will be no way back. Westmeath won the Leinster in 04, just one of them means far more than anything in a tiered championship.
What changed from 04 when Westmeath beat Dublin on the way to winning the title? How are Dublin now destroying every team in Leinster to win every title since 05 bar 1? You answer that question correctly and you will see the real problem in the GAA and the one that needs tackling.

No I'm not saying it will stop but I think less lads will go. Its the same at club level, theres always lads will go but if theres different tiers and teams have more of a chance to win something then less will be tempted to go imo. It's only a mickey mouse comp if counties and the media treat it that way. If a tiered championship is brought it needs to be accepted it will be in for a few years and teams need to look at it as a chance to improve. It will take time but it can work.
Standards are slipping already, Westmeath/Offaly/Laois are never going to win the all Ireland but could win a few intermediate all Ireland. Isn't it better to have that than winning an odd Division 2 final getting to a few Leinster finals? I still think we should keep the provincials but play them in March/April and give the carrot that if you win it you get into the Senior all Ireland regardless of level. Still gives the weaker counties a shout at the bigger teams and chance to win something.

Westmeath had a once in a generation team who had 2 under age all Irelands and a legendary manager. Dublin have got their act together since and got the funding to help that but that Westmeath team wouldn't win a Leinster now even. Theres just too many good players in Dublin in Dublin now with record numbers playing and clubs struggling to have the facilities to cater for them. They may not keep winning Leinsters forever but they wont slip back like they did in the 00's again anytime soon.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 7:42pm

slegs wrote: »

Its certainly not unanimous like you are trying to paint that all teams and players in the lower tier wont like it. Many coaches and players from lower teams have been saying for years that a second tier championship is needed. Yes, there are many voices against it but I don't see any other option now. The gap is too wide and the odd win by a lower team in the early stages of the championship doesnt change the fact the gap exists. You are always going to have the odd surprise when you have a back door second chance. Its not like the old days when you surprised someone and knocked them out and it actually meant something ( and your route further was easier as a result ).

Your notion that somehow we can restrain the so called elite teams methods and resources is not practical. Who is going to police that? We will be back to shady dealings and brown envelopes everywhere. If it was only about money then wealthy counties like Galway, Cork, Kildare and Meath would be winning more.

It's not unanimous but it's more popular amongst the bottom of division 4 teams. The only major gap is between the top 4-6 and the rest. This gap will remain no matter how many teams are kicked out. Of course we can restrain the elite teams resources, especially when some of their resources are coming from every member of the GAA and taxpayers. You need to do a bit of research in what sort of money the top cointies are investing.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 7:46pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Of curse it would have been much better to have beaten Roscommon, thats nothing to do with it. They would currently be a Tier 1 team anyway.

And why i would want the weaker teams 'out of the way'? Im quite happy that we hopefully will get a weak team in the first qualifier and assuming we get through that, then also in the one after that. Couple of easier games might help us get back on track but it think it would be a fairer system if we were to play teams at roughly our own level, and if that was the case in the qualifiers, id be very worried about our chances right now

If there were no 'weaker' counties left, you would go straight into the glamour ties. Let's face it, that's why you all want this tiered championship. You couldn't give a sh1t if it destroys football in the demoted counties as long as you get to play Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone etc in your elite championship.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 7:49pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

This is the biggest lie you are constantly peddling, because promotion and relegation would be an intrinsic part of any properly structured tiered system. It wouldnt be anything like the hurling, the gap between the elite and the rest
is not the same

The only evidence we have to go on is the hurling. There we can see that promotion and relegation was promised but denied numerous times and there's no way for counties to recover once they've been put down to a lower level. Offaly is proof of this.
And just think about if you're wrong. What if this does destroy Gaelic Football in many counties, what then?

The Lost Sheep · 28-05-2019 7:56pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

And you think the drop outs will magically stop if there's a tiered championship? They will increase! If thery're not showing up for the real championship, they definitely won't for mickey mouse competitions. Standards will slip year on year and there will be no way back. Westmeath won the Leinster in 04, just one of them means far more than anything in a tiered championship.
What changed from 04 when Westmeath beat Dublin on the way to winning the title? How are Dublin now destroying every team in Leinster to win every title since 05 bar 1? You answer that question correctly and you will see the real problem in the GAA and the one that needs tackling.

A tiered competition doesnt mean the lower level sides wont be playing mickey mouse competitions. It would be like clubs competitions. Are the intermediate and junior club championships mickey mouse competitions then? Standards will increase as sides play more games against sides of their own level and they can move up when theyre good and ready

Farawayhome wrote: »

The only evidence we have to go on is the hurling. There we can see that promotion and relegation was promised but denied numerous times and there's no way for counties to recover once they've been put down to a lower level. Offaly is proof of this.
And just think about if you're wrong. What if this does destroy Gaelic Football in many counties, what then?

Hurling is completely different to Gaelic. And go away with the hysterics. Gaelic would never be destroyed at all.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 7:59pm

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

No I'm not saying it will stop but I think less lads will go. Its the same at club level, theres always lads will go but if theres different tiers and teams have more of a chance to win something then less will be tempted to go imo. It's only a mickey mouse comp if counties and the media treat it that way. If a tiered championship is brought it needs to be accepted it will be in for a few years and teams need to look at it as a chance to improve. It will take time but it can work.
Standards are slipping already, Westmeath/Offaly/Laois are never going to win the all Ireland but could win a few intermediate all Ireland. Isn't it better to have that than winning an odd Division 2 final getting to a few Leinster finals? I still think we should keep the provincials but play them in March/April and give the carrot that if you win it you get into the Senior all Ireland regardless of level. Still gives the weaker counties a shout at the bigger teams and chance to win something.

Westmeath had a once in a generation team who had 2 under age all Irelands and a legendary manager. Dublin have got their act together since and got the funding to help that but that Westmeath team wouldn't win a Leinster now even. Theres just too many good players in Dublin in Dublin now with record numbers playing and clubs struggling to have the facilities to cater for them. They may not keep winning Leinsters forever but they wont slip back like they did in the 00's again anytime soon.

Players will only play for their club. There'll be no point in playing inter county and even if they do, the standard of training will be behind the top tier and the gap will increase year on year. Again, look at the hurling. They promised different but the GAA gave lower tiered counties no respect. They throw finals around different venues instead of the promised Croke Park. Coverage is almost non existant.
Offaly have won All Ireland's in the past, of course it's possible. As I've mentioned, 21 counties have won provincial championships in the recent past, the gap between the top and bottom has increased in the past few years and it's of no fault of these counties. They shouldn't be punished because others are given financial advantages.
Dublin will continue to win Leinsters and All Ireland's nearly every year. This will be in any competition people can contrive. That's a major issue people keep ignoring. The funding is not some by the by. It's integral to how Dublin are winning every year and it's integral to counties such as Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal. The money these counties are spending is crazy. This is the biggest issue in the GAA. This is the one that needs to be tackled.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 8:02pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A tiered competition doesnt mean the lower level sides wont be playing mickey mouse competitions. It would be like clubs competitions. Are the intermediate and junior club championships mickey mouse competitions then? Standards will increase as sides play more games against sides of their own level and they can move up when theyre good and ready

Hurling is completely different to Gaelic. And go away with the hysterics. Gaelic would never be destroyed at all.

Apples and oranges again. And look at Offaly in the hurling. No way back. The level of interest in many counties has dwindled as it is. A tiered championship will interest no one.

The Lost Sheep · 28-05-2019 8:08pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Players will only play for their club. There'll be no point in playing inter county and even if they do, the standard of training will be behind the top tier and the gap will increase year on year. Again, look at the hurling. They promised different but the GAA gave lower tiered counties no respect. They throw finals around different venues instead of the promised Croke Park. Coverage is almost non existant.
Offaly have won All Ireland's in the past, of course it's possible. As I've mentioned, 21 counties have won provincial championships in the recent past, the gap between the top and bottom has increased in the past few years and it's of no fault of these counties. They shouldn't be punished because others are given financial advantages.
Dublin will continue to win Leinsters and All Ireland's nearly every year. This will be in any competition people can contrive. That's a major issue people keep ignoring. The funding is not some by the by. It's integral to how Dublin are winning every year and it's integral to counties such as Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal. The money these counties are spending is crazy. This is the biggest issue in the GAA. This is the one that needs to be tackled.

Players wont just play for their club. Why would standards of training be lower because you are playing division2??
And if funding changed considerably these counties would still dominate regardless.

Farawayhome wrote: »

Apples and oranges again. And look at Offaly in the hurling. No way back. The level of interest in many counties has dwindled as it is. A tiered championship will interest no one.

You keep stating it will interest no one with nothing to back it up.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 8:14pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Players wont just play for their club. Why would standards of training be lower because you are playing division2??
And if funding changed considerably these counties would still dominate regardless.

You keep stating it will interest no one with nothing to back it up.

Players won't be training to win a provincial or All Ireland championship. Of course standards will slip and of course, players will opt out. They are already and these mickey mouse championships will make it worse. I've already shown that these counties did not dominate. The championship was wide open for almost 2 decades. The funding changed that.

The only evidence we have is hurling. You're the one with nothing to back anything up. You're just hoping for the best. What if you're wrong?

The Lost Sheep · 28-05-2019 8:23pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Players won't be training to win a provincial or All Ireland championship. Of course standards will slip and of course, players will opt out. They are already and these mickey mouse championships will make it worse. I've already shown that these counties did not dominate. The championship was wide open for almost 2 decades. The funding changed that.

The only evidence we have is hurling. You're the one with nothing to back anything up. You're just hoping for the best. What if you're wrong?

Why wont counties be competing for a provincial title. That would still be open to all.
Changes dont mean standards will slip. Counties playing more teams of their own standard more often and then having a proper ladder of progression will see standards increase in time.
You're just saying no we only can some how just stop all the money and that will improve things which isnt the answer.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 9:08pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why wont counties be competing for a provincial title. That would still be open to all.
Changes dont mean standards will slip. Counties playing more teams of their own standard more often and then having a proper ladder of progression will see standards increase in time.
You're just saying no we only can some how just stop all the money and that will improve things which isnt the answer.

Offaly hurling.

Not stop all the money, give it to the 'weaker' counties. That's how to improve standards, it's been proven to do so.

The Lost Sheep · 28-05-2019 9:14pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Offaly hurling.

Not stop all the money, give it to the 'weaker' counties. That's how to improve standards, it's been proven to do so.

money isnt going to improve these counties. Playing more games against sides of a similar standard in a tiered competition and sides can improve over time improves standards.

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 9:22pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

money isnt going to improve these counties. Playing more games against sides of a similar standard in a tiered competition and sides can improve over time improves standards.

Money will improve these counties. This has been proved. Playing counties of a similar or lower standard doesn't improve standards, that has been proved.

Bass Reeves · 28-05-2019 9:25pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Offaly hurling.

Not stop all the money, give it to the 'weaker' counties. That's how to improve standards, it's been proven to do so.

Everything with you comes back to Offalybhur hurling. Offaly hurling sat in a cocoon for a decade. Not good enough to compete in Leinster. Other counties found it hard to progress because Offaly was protected. New structure exposed it's poor performance's.
The counter is Carlow now in the Leinster championship who is giving better games to teams in Leinster than Offaly has done for a good few years. Offaly has been exposed in the Joe McDonagh cup and will not return to the Leinster championship for another few years. But when it dose it will be a different team. The only thing that is unfair is that when and it is only a matter of when Kerry win the Joe McDonagh cup it will find it virtually impossible to progress as it will not progress automatically into Munster which is unfair.

But Offaly is a good example for a tired championship

Farawayhome · 28-05-2019 9:39pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Everything with you comes back to Offalybhur hurling. Offaly hurling sat in a cocoon for a decade. Not good enough to compete in Leinster. Other counties found it hard to progress because Offaly was protected. New structure exposed it's poor performance's.
The counter is Carlow now in the Leinster championship who is giving better games to teams in Leinster than Offaly has done for a good few years. Offaly has been exposed in the Joe McDonagh cup and will not return to the Leinster championship for another few years. But when it dose it will be a different team. The only thing that is unfair is that when and it is only a matter of when Kerry win the Joe McDonagh cup it will find it virtually impossible to progress as it will not progress automatically into Munster which is unfair.

But Offaly is a good example for a tired championship

Carlow are in this year for their few whippings, it will be someone else next year and eventually some people like those on this thread will come along and say what's the point of one of these minnows getting battered every year, let's do like they do in Munster.
People are saying that somehow counties playing against other counties at or below their standard will help improve them. This is complete nonsense and goes against any common sense. You get better by playing against better teams and gradually upping your game. Offaly are a great example but you can choose any county from the lower tiers. They will never be able to make the jump from the level they're playing at to the upper level. It just won't happen.
Next you're going to say wasn't that always the way. Well yes, in hurling. Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry and teams such as these were never competing. Then other counties like Laois and Antrim were on the edges but never made a breakthrough. Has the lower tiered competitions improved them? Have they got any better? The answer is no. A definite no.
Now, there was a county at the same level as these mentioned above. Dublin. What did they do to move so far ahead of the rest? How can they comepte at the top level when they never could before. We all know the answer and that tells us what needs to be done for other 'weaker' counties in both football and hurling.

The Lost Sheep · 28-05-2019 9:54pm

Farawayhome wrote: »

Carlow are in this year for their few whippings, it will be someone else next year and eventually some people like those on this thread will come along and say what's the point of one of these minnows getting battered every year, let's do like they do in Munster.
People are saying that somehow counties playing against other counties at or below their standard will help improve them. This is complete nonsense and goes against any common sense. You get better by playing against better teams and gradually upping your game. Offaly are a great example but you can choose any county from the lower tiers. They will never be able to make the jump from the level they're playing at to the upper level. It just won't happen.
Next you're going to say wasn't that always the way. Well yes, in hurling. Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry and teams such as these were never competing. Then other counties like Laois and Antrim were on the edges but never made a breakthrough. Has the lower tiered competitions improved them? Have they got any better? The answer is no. A definite no.
Now, there was a county at the same level as these mentioned above. Dublin. What did they do to move so far ahead of the rest? How can they comepte at the top level when they never could before. We all know the answer and that tells us what needs to be done for other 'weaker' counties in both football and hurling.

If the bit in red was true then why have so many counties never ever really challenged at the top end for trophies?

Tiered Championship

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