Waterford University discussion

brendansmith wrote: »

The college is slap bang up beside the roughest area in the southeast bar none.

Hanging around waiting for the miserable excuse for public transport could easily get you knifed!

The area has problems alright but you are unlikely to get attacked. I moved down to waterford recently and I live near ballybeg and near the travellers camp. I have never had a bad word spoken to me even at three in the morning when we sometimes walk home from town.

Same rules apply as any other place. Keep your head up and don't look at anyone directly but be aware whats around you.

Well if we get one it'll be definitely at least two ITs involved but Waterford would have to be the major campus. Not sure how it would work though when campuses would be so far apart. Imo, it'll be mainly a name change as it was from RTC to IT as becoming a full-blown university just isn't an option. There are some great lecturers in WIT but university teaching is a completely different ball game. We would not be able to completely change the way we teach and what we teach. Also, the number of hours delivered by university lecturers is around a third of the equivalent for an IT lecturer and I can't see the govt hiring a shedload more lecturers. The infrastructure for a university is also not quite there in WIT (I mean the physical infrastructure as opposed to all the other types that are missing). Class sizes are becoming more like those in universities but there's already problems with there not being enough classrooms large enough to accomodate the larger groups.

It'll be an interesting few months ahead but don't be surprised if another investigation is done and the conclusion is reached that it would not be a good idea to change things. From the point of view of WIT (as opposed to the wider regional considerations) I think WIT is better off as an IT, as it could continue to attempt to be the best IT, rather than one of the weakest universities. big fish, small pond and all that.

Sully wrote: »

The lead rumour applied beside Maxol also where Aldi now sits. I mentioned this to the former president and was told there wasn't the money. A great idea, just not the money.

I wonder where all the money went

FYI, a blog post on the issue:
The fall-out from TalkTalk and a Technological University for the South East.

By the way, last I heard, the WIT-CIT merger was off the table again. WIT were in talks with Carlow.

Sully wrote: »

Its fast changing but I had heard last year that Carlow refused to talk with WIT. Has that now changed?

The new government moved the goal posts by talking about a 'technical university for the south east' in the programme for government. So it has to be south east institutes. Some time later WIT announced they had begun talks with Carlow IT.

Psychedelic wrote: »

We might as well forget about a university in Waterford, it's never going to happen. All 3 main parties have fed us lies and empty promises that they are in favour of a university in the South East, but when it comes to their chance at making a decision they are too afraid or just simply don't want Waterford to have a university.

Gilmore is now hiding behind the excuse of "we have to set the criteria for a technological university first" i.e. more reports, consultations. I know they have to set the criteria but the draft criteria are in place since June, it should now just be a matter of quickly finalising these, but the impression I get from Gilmore's comments is that this process will take a long time. What will probably happen is a year from now the criteria will be published, WIT will fall short on some, and the Government will have their excuse to delay the university upgrade yet again.

Just shake our fists bitterly at the sky? The usual Waterford response to every setback.

Minister Bruton speaks about a the appointment of another expert to look into the criteria for a Technological university. We already have an expert report on a university in Waterford which was broadly in favour. A multi campus TU in the South East is just another attempt to fob us off. Do not forget that all the running for a university here has been done in Waterford ALONE with little assistance from the other counties. Now Ministers Howlin and Hogan are showing interest so that they can claim to be bringing a university to their towns.

Psychedelic wrote: »

I'm not saying we should just get angry and give up, I'm just saying the game is up now. I have been optimistic for every step of the process to try get the university but I am now just being realistic. Hand on heart, do you honestly believe now that the university, technological or otherwise, will ever happen?

See the bits below in bold, another bloody review? A review to see if a TU could be created? Sure why couldn't a TU be set up?


http://www.wlrfm.com/news-and-sport/waterford-news/128664.html

I think a technological university of some kind for the south east will more than likely be set up, probably alongside another one based on DIT in Dublin, and possibly one in Cork. But it won't be as easy as that.

Maybe 6 years ago the situation was nearly hopeless. (We could have all given up then with good conscience.) An OECD report from 2002 gave a big fat 'no' and there was absolutely no appetite for it whatsoever. That was it. This changed around 2005, or before, when three things happened: 1) the Chamber of Commerce and the council started agitating strongly again and they commissioned a report (the Goodbody report), which highlighted the benefits a university would bring to the south east; 2) WIT, with Kieran Byrne on board, was very bullishly pro-university, and attempted to take a test case against the universities act which provided, in principle, for admissions into the university sector; and 3) Cullen in cabinet commissioned the Port report to investigate the case for a university for the south east. A few years later, when the momentum reached a certain point, a number of individuals restarted a campaign for a university: FUSE, etc.

This was a high point, but ultimately it was all packaged up and bundled, with everything else, into considerations for the Hunt report. Then the recession came and that was the end of that for a while. But gains had been made. The case had been made very strongly and awareness had increased dramatically. The Hunt report pretty much had to "do something" with WIT. What that something was, was anyone's guess.

The Hunt report was released and made mention of technological universities. For the first time, this opened the door to WIT to apply for something that they had a reasonable chance of getting, because, essentially, it was for the likes of DIT and WIT that this new type of university was being proposed. Although, on the whole, the Hunt report was disappointing for Waterford, but not so disappointing that it hadn't given Waterford and the south east a way to progress.

The next event was the inclusion of the line about investigating the establishment of a technical university for the south east in the FG programme for government, and their subsequent election. This was the first time a major party, who were definitely going to be elected, had publicly stated, in a document addressed to the nation, that it was serious about a university in the south east -- although yes, there was wiggle room in there for them. They also used the terminology of the Hunt report (wrongly, but still) in referring to a technical university. This effectively united academic recommendations with a certain amount of political will in a process that pretty much has to be continued and can't really recommend nothing for WIT at the end of the day.

So my honest opinion is that if Waterford and the south east keeps up the pressure, fight all the battles and overcome all the setbacks, WIT will be upgraded/merged to become a technological university. Once separated from the other IoTs, anything is possible in the future. I believe that if a university in Waterford is given half a chance, i.e. even 60% of the funding and support the other universities get, it will take off. It will take off because the south east is a large region and there is be no competition nearby.

Looking at Galway and Limerick for comparison, student numbers could literally double in 10 years. There is a lot at stake, for us and for them, for that reason.

So in this relative high point in "the struggle" I wouldn't be getting too down hearted. Imagine where the whole thing stood in 1997 when the Waterford University Action Group fought and won an upgrade to institute of technology status only for the lot of them to be upgraded a few months later? Pretty sickening stuff. But because it happened then, it's less likely to happen again. It would not be stood for, and I don't think the powers that be want it either. Anyway, enough of the history (although there's a lot more than that to be told).

mystique150 wrote: »

The idea of another university sounds great but what about the students who may not have the ability or the means to attend a university? Where do they go? Fas? As it stands fees for an IT are about half that when compared to a university. Also, some students cope better in an IT environment where the lessons are more structured than a university and lecture type approach. University teaching is a lot more independent than what you currently see in an IT, where class sizes smaller and more intimate. Many of the lecturers you currently come across in ITs are not actively involved in research - this is a must for a university. Some of them don't have PhDs either, can we just drop those? I don't think so - we gave many (most) of them full time permanent jobs for life! What happens if WIT becomes a university - we carry along all those lecturers who are not qualified to teach at university level and ultimately end up with a poor university. I'd be in much more favour of an excellent IT than a poor or mediocre university!.

The universities and the IoTs are teaching degrees to largely the same standard, so if you can do a degree in an IoT, you can do it in a university. Also, certs and ordinary degrees will have to still be offered by technological universities, so they would remain. That's already in the draft HEA criteria. This also takes care of lecturers who aren't trained to a high enough level to teach degrees. Actually, though, quite a high percentage of WIT staff have PhDs these days, so it wouldn't be a problem. Some universities, such as NUIM, could be said to very friendly, with small class sizes in many cases, so I wouldn't say there is as much of a difference between university and IoT environments as you imply. I personally wouldn't notice the difference, except maybe with large universities.

So no real grounds for fear, uncertainty and doubt.