Freight rail in Ireland

dowlingm · 23-04-2021 10:36am

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the planning permission for the mine stipulates rail haulage must be used.

when the Silvermines shale traffic ceased did that require a PP change? Can’t remember myself.

MyLove4Satan · 28-04-2021 5:59pm

3) Reviving rail freight in Ireland could potentially shift some of the road freight volume to the more environmental-friendly rail mode. Paradoxically, rail freight in Ireland is facing great challenges to grow and has dropped to one of the lowest levels in terms of modal share among other EU states.

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/0427/1212308-are-we-on-the-road-to-sustainable-freight-transport/

andrewfaulk · 29-04-2021 5:30pm

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/0427/1212308-are-we-on-the-road-to-sustainable-freight-transport/

More of a mention in passing than anything..

Will be interesting to see what happens with a green transport minister.. he’s already announced a few handouts for hauliers, nothing yet..

GM228 · 29-04-2021 6:15pm

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the planning permission for the mine stipulates rail haulage must be used.

dowlingm wrote: »

when the Silvermines shale traffic ceased did that require a PP change? Can’t remember myself.

The Shale ran from Kilmastulla, not Silvermines (that was the Barytes train).

Rail haulage was never a PP condition for transport to Castlemungret, and contrary to popular belief is not a condition imposed on Boliden for the Tara Mines, in fact it is a condition of contract with IE that road transport must be provided for by IE if they can't run the train for whatever reason and this has happened on many occasions.

Del.Monte · 29-04-2021 7:57pm

GM228 wrote: »

The Shale ran from Kilmastulla, not Silvermines (that was the Barytes train).

Rail haulage was never a PP condition for transport to Castlemungret, and contrary to popular belief is not a condition imposed on Boliden for the Tara Mines, in fact it is a condition of contract with IE that road transport must be provided for by IE if they can't run the train for whatever reason and this has happened on many occasions.

I'm almost 101% certain that it was a condition of planning permission for the mine that the ore be moved to Dublin Port by rail.

GM228 · 29-04-2021 8:42pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm almost 101% certain that it was a condition of planning permission for the mine that the ore be moved to Dublin Port by rail.

Droves of trucks have regularly shipped ore from Navan to Dublin Port, both in lieu of a train and as a supplement to it, if not permitted then this would never happen.

It's been reported alright in many places that it is a condition but, the licence T&Cs have never been made public and are subject to lots of speculation, however there was a mid 1990s Oireachtas debate on planning for mines in which the then Minister for Marine and Natural Resources Michael Woods stated that the road/rail option was a matter for the mining company alone and the matter could not be dictated, I'll try and find it.

The contract between Boliden and IE has always had a clause that IE would use road transport in lieu of the train if needed, again if not permitted it would not be in the contract.

GM228 · 14-05-2021 8:09am

GM228 wrote: »

There was an issue with carrying 45ft 9'6" reefer containers, however that issue has been sorted and such containers are cleared from next week between Waterford/Dublin and Ballina so the XPO liner is back on track, but no start date.

Just an update on this, contracts have now been signed and the XPO liner is due to commence in 3 weeks.

tabbey · 14-05-2021 10:18am

GM228 wrote: »

Just an update on this, contracts have now been signed and the XPO liner is due to commence in 3 weeks.

Yes, heard it on the radio.
Xpo seem to have a capable communication officer.
It is great news.

andrewfaulk · 14-05-2021 12:50pm

tabbey wrote: »

Yes, heard it on the radio.
Xpo seem to have a capable communication officer.
It is great news.

The PR spin being put on it would make it seem like good news alright.. I would give it a mixed news

tabbey · 14-05-2021 4:49pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

The PR spin being put on it would make it seem like good news alright.. I would give it a mixed news

Thank you for letting us know that it is not entirely good news. Is it perhaps at the expense of the existing Dublin- Mayo railway traffic?

andrewfaulk · 14-05-2021 5:07pm

tabbey wrote: »

Thank you for letting us know that it is not entirely good news. Is it perhaps at the expense of the existing Dublin- Mayo railway traffic?

Unless IE have been hiding a full set of LX wagons and a couple of vacuum freight trained drivers for the past 10 years, they don't actually have the resources to support the new business.. But never let fine details get in the way of a good news story

Harry Palmr · 14-05-2021 6:42pm

https://twitter.com/fleettransport/status/1393146890804416513

Del.Monte · 14-05-2021 6:46pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Unless IE have been hiding a full set of LX wagons and a couple of vacuum freight trained drivers for the past 10 years, they don't actually have the resources to support the new business.. But never let fine details get in the way of a good news story

So you're saying it's all a pack of lies and the company involved are just taking the proverbial and the new service isn't going to happen? :rolleyes:

tabbey · 14-05-2021 7:04pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Unless IE have been hiding a full set of LX wagons and a couple of vacuum freight trained drivers for the past 10 years, they don't actually have the resources to support the new business.. But never let fine details get in the way of a good news story

Would the container pocket wagons be a help? Saw a half dozen in Waterford yesterday.

andrewfaulk · 14-05-2021 7:09pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

So you're saying it's all a pack of lies and the company involved are just taking the proverbial and the new service isn't going to happen? :rolleyes:

No, I’m fairly sure XPO are a serious business proposition for IE.. What I’m saying is IE don’t have the resources to operate the announced service as well as” continuing to work with existing customers” to use their own words

andrewfaulk · 14-05-2021 7:10pm

tabbey wrote: »

Would the container pocket wagons be a help? Saw a half dozen in Waterford yesterday.

IE quoting 8 month lead time to restore to service so no use for end of june

tabbey · 14-05-2021 7:26pm

I had assumed that xpo and iwt were the same or connected, it sounds like I was mistaken.

Are both competing for the same customer, coca cola, or is there an additional source of traffic?

IE 222 · 15-05-2021 10:55am

Can the spoil wagons not be used as a last resort if their that short?

I'd presume it's some of the Dublin traffic will just divert back to Waterford. I doubt they'd be signing contracts if they couldn't provide the service.

91wx763 · 15-05-2021 2:28pm

A Waterford IE fiend tells me it's only going to Sallypark yard but the customer hasn't realised that yet.....

Mimon · 15-05-2021 2:38pm

12 YO son is mad into trains and would like to get a video of an Irish freight train.

Was thinking just parking up near the Tara mines line near a level crossing and waiting it out. How many are running there per day does anyone know?

IE 222 · 15-05-2021 7:14pm

91wx763 wrote: »

A Waterford IE fiend tells me it's only going to Sallypark yard but the customer hasn't realised that yet.....

Why would it only go as far as Sallypark?

Whatever some might think of IE their both professional companies doing business here. I'd be fairly certain both companies have had detailed discussions about the service and have agreed and ironed out exactly how and where the service will run too before signing contracts.

Rootsblower · 16-05-2021 9:47am

IE 222 wrote: »

Why would it only go as far as Sallypark?

Whatever some might think of IE their both professional companies doing business here. I'd be fairly certain both companies have had detailed discussions about the service and have agreed and ironed out exactly how and where the service will run too before signing contracts.

Finally some sense

tabbey · 16-05-2021 12:21pm

91wx763 wrote: »

A Waterford IE fiend tells me it's only going to Sallypark yard but the customer hasn't realised that yet.....

Is the railway between Sallypark and Belview closed now?
I thought that the track beside the closed main platforms was available for freight movement towards the Rosslare direction.

tabbey · 16-05-2021 12:34pm

Mimon wrote: »

12 YO son is mad into trains and would like to get a video of an Irish freight train.

Was thinking just parking up near the Tara mines line near a level crossing and waiting it out. How many are running there per day does anyone know?

There is one main level crossing at Beauparc, midway between Navan and Drogheda. Another one at Navan station itself.
It's difficult to be sure that a particular Tara train will run at all, never mind on time, but loaded trains usually leave Navan about 0900 or 0930 on weekdays getting to Dublin North Wall about 1100. The second one leaves Navan about midday getting to Dublin about 1430.

andrewfaulk · 16-05-2021 12:43pm

tabbey wrote: »

Is the railway between Sallypark and Belview closed now?
I thought that the track beside the closed main platforms was available for freight movement towards the Rosslare direction.

It was closed for a few weeks earlier this year to facilitate demolition work on the north quays, old IE dormitory and the cottages alongside the line.. It’s back open now but there is a possibility it will be closed for up to 2 years if the north quays and new station construction goes ahead.. The work in Sallypark may just be as a fall back option if the North quays goes ahead

IE 222 · 17-05-2021 10:52am

Why would the line need to close for 2 years. The line will be separate from the development.

andrewfaulk · 17-05-2021 12:18pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Why would the line need to close for 2 years. The line will be separate from the development.

The development includes a new station over the existing line.. You can't build over an active rail line, so it is proposed to take the line under a T3 possession to facilitate the work..

https://waterfordnorthquays.ie/construction-of-a-new-transport-hub/

tabbey · 17-05-2021 12:58pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

The development includes a new station over the existing line.. You can't build over an active rail line, so it is proposed to take the line under a T3 possession to facilitate the work..

https://waterfordnorthquays.ie/construction-of-a-new-transport-hub/

I am familiar with the term "possession", but what specifically is a T3 possession?

IE 222 · 17-05-2021 1:33pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

The development includes a new station over the existing line.. You can't build over an active rail line, so it is proposed to take the line under a T3 possession to facilitate the work..

https://waterfordnorthquays.ie/construction-of-a-new-transport-hub/

The station concourse will be over the line. It's basically a bridge and not much different than Parkwest, Clondalkin or what's planned for Kylmore, if that goes ahead. They didn't need to close rail lines for 2 years to build them.

Other than relaying the line I can't see why the line would need to be closed for a prolonged period. It's a precast structure so will be assembled rather easily.

goingnowhere · 17-05-2021 1:56pm

They built a new roof over Pearse with a few weekend closures, so no problem operate under the works if a crash deck is installed or you crane in the bits over a long weekend. Most decks are cast off site anyway

They built Adamstown, Parkwest etc with minimal operational impact, certainly didn't close the Dublin Cork mainline for 2 years

Lots of doom sayers looking for problems.

andrewfaulk · 17-05-2021 2:33pm

Up to 2 years is what I was told.. Same source as the 8 months to re-instate the pocket wagons.. Both times do seem excessive to me, but maybe there is an element of engineers within IE quoting longer times than people might expect things to take

Jamie2k9 · 17-05-2021 2:54pm

Whatever happens it will prob be fine for the next year anyway now that a new developers are been looked for. Council will not start on the station until overall work starts.

If the will is there traffic can flow to the port, yes closure needed but 24/7 closure is the easier option which IE are used to. If that fails PoW and Eamon Ryan will put the pressure on in due course and disruption will be limited and solutions found!

Jamie2k9 · 17-05-2021 3:07pm

Page 14:

Construction Stage CE Response:
While it is proposed to close the line during
construction to expedite the works as efficiently,
cost effectively and safely as possible, the
existing track will remain in place and will be
available for limited use should it be necessary.
Such use could impact on the delivery of the
project and requirements would therefore be
reviewed on a case by case basis. The track and
signalling alterations, which will be carried out
during the latter stages of construction, will result
in disruption to the access to Belview but every
reasonable effort will be made to minimise
disruption.

https://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/media/projects/public-consultations/sdz-transport-hub/190911%20CE%20Report%20Transport%20Hub.pdf

No creditable reason for long term closure during construction.

IE 222 · 17-05-2021 4:26pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Page 14:

https://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/media/projects/public-consultations/sdz-transport-hub/190911%20CE%20Report%20Transport%20Hub.pdf

No creditable reason for long term closure during construction.

Makes sense.

I see the plans and drawings show double track running up to Plunkett. Is there any info if the double track will continue up to Limerick Jct line.

Have they announced what will happen with the old station?

IE 222 · 17-05-2021 4:27pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Up to 2 years is what I was told.. Same source as the 8 months to re-instate the pocket wagons.. Both times do seem excessive to me, but maybe there is an element of engineers within IE quoting longer times than people might expect things to take

How long are the pockets out of use? Where not been used to supplement the Dublin service?

andrewfaulk · 17-05-2021 4:58pm

IE 222 wrote: »

How long are the pockets out of use? Where not been used to supplement the Dublin service?

Since the end of the DFDS service, so since the end of June 2018..

Dublin-Ballina uses 3 sets of flat wagons, pocket's havent been on IWT's since summer 2017

andrewfaulk · 17-05-2021 5:07pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Page 14:

https://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/media/projects/public-consultations/sdz-transport-hub/190911%20CE%20Report%20Transport%20Hub.pdf

No creditable reason for long term closure during construction.

I'll pass the message back to my sources in IE for you so and they can take it up with the IM

IE 222 · 17-05-2021 7:55pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Since the end of the DFDS service, so since the end of June 2018..

Dublin-Ballina uses 3 sets of flat wagons, pocket's have been on IWT's since summer 2017

Cheers, I thought they were moved onto Dublin freight for the extra flows. As you say 8 months sounds a bit far fetched for any stock to under go exams ect.

Jamie2k9 · 17-05-2021 10:27pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

I'll pass the message back to my sources in IE for you so and they can take it up with the IM

You sure can!

I don't want to argue with you but the railway line doesn't need to close for the majority of the project. The council response will have been directly fed back from IE who I understand requested it to be operational.

If XPO starts and proves to be successful they should be considered a priority by IE and all reasonable avenues explored to ensure full operations. Longer liners could possibly help to reduce the number of movements during any construction.

Makes sense.

I see the plans and drawings show double track running up to Plunkett. Is there any info if the double track will continue up to Limerick Jct line.

Have they announced what will happen with the old station?

Anything other than the double is unknown (the published reports say design is IE area), it should be double from the new station to where they branch off today. The whole yard will likely be done so they should do it right.

DoctorPan · 17-05-2021 10:53pm

tabbey wrote: »

I am familiar with the term "possession", but what specifically is a T3 possession?

Full line closure, given over to CCE department. Also know as a Green Zone or Green Line Working.

IE 222 · 18-05-2021 12:26am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You sure can!

I don't want to argue with you but the railway line doesn't need to close for the majority of the project. The council response will have been directly fed back from IE who I understand requested it to be operational.

If XPO starts and proves to be successful they should be considered a priority by IE and all reasonable avenues explored to ensure full operations. Longer liners could possibly help to reduce the number of movements during any construction.

Anything other than the double is unknown (the published reports say design is IE area), it should be double from the new station to where they branch off today. The whole yard will likely be done so they should do it right.

Running the return service on the same day is another option. I'd imagine at the time of writing them plans there was no services in the pipeline.

Doubling all the way up would be pretty much as good as a 3rd platform. The drawings also show tracks slightly venturing up the New Ross line, will this be used for stabling?

tnegun · 08-06-2021 9:57pm

What congestion does the IWT liner cause that its being refused access to the port? Surely it be timed or held in the NW yard to arrive the port at the least congested time or what am I missing?

Jamie2k9 · 08-06-2021 10:54pm

It seems like a crazy decision hopefully it will be reversed in time. The level of congestion doesn't seem proportionate to this decision but then again I don't know how they operate.

Its 10 years next month since the rail extension opened. I note it was DP who funded this. Had it been IE at the time prehaps they would have had more influence. In theory could they just return to loading/unloading at Alexandra like before?

end of the road · 08-06-2021 11:41pm

so the train can't access the particular terminal due to congestion, yet i would imagine the load will now go by road to dublin port, adding more congestion.
because presumably this is a whole port issue since if it was just that terminal then they could accommodate overload in other parts of the port?
makes no sense to me anyway, but perhapse more information will come out in due course which will clear things up.

tabbey · 09-06-2021 2:50pm

tnegun wrote: »

What congestion does the IWT liner cause that its being refused access to the port? Surely it be timed or held in the NW yard to arrive the port at the least congested time or what am I missing?

Since the main access to Dublin port was moved to the promenade road, there has been very little road traffic on Alexandra road.
If a truck driver complains about a few minutes delay while a train reverses down Alexandra road, he should be told to use the other entry.
Perhaps Dublin Port company mean shipping congestion, in which case I W T should do business with Waterford Port.

IE 222 · 10-06-2021 8:48pm

Is this the reason Waterford is restarting or is this lost business?

end of the road · 11-06-2021 6:24pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Is this the reason Waterford is restarting or is this lost business?

it comes across to me that this was sudden, so likely lost business if so.
guess we will have to wait and see.

DoctorPan · 11-06-2021 11:12pm

Reports coming in that Dublin Port has relented and the liner will start again next week

IE 222 · 12-06-2021 1:14am

DoctorPan wrote: »

Reports coming in that Dublin Port has relented and the liner will start again next week

Good news. Seen as Coca Cola purposely opt for rail transport on this route could they've played a part in getting it back on the rails? I doubt they were to happy about Dublin Port dictating and forcing their goods back onto the road.

LuckyLloyd · 16-06-2021 4:13pm

Given the Irish Times just reported the link as severed this morning it seems that it hasn’t/ won’t be restarted.

Freight rail in Ireland

Comments