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Freight rail in Ireland

13567

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    apparently the planning permission for the mine stipulates rail haulage must be used.
    when the Silvermines shale traffic ceased did that require a PP change? Can’t remember myself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    3) Reviving rail freight in Ireland could potentially shift some of the road freight volume to the more environmental-friendly rail mode. Paradoxically, rail freight in Ireland is facing great challenges to grow and has dropped to one of the lowest levels in terms of modal share among other EU states.

    https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/0427/1212308-are-we-on-the-road-to-sustainable-freight-transport/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk



    More of a mention in passing than anything..

    Will be interesting to see what happens with a green transport minister.. he’s already announced a few handouts for hauliers, nothing yet..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    apparently the planning permission for the mine stipulates rail haulage must be used.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    when the Silvermines shale traffic ceased did that require a PP change? Can’t remember myself.

    The Shale ran from Kilmastulla, not Silvermines (that was the Barytes train).

    Rail haulage was never a PP condition for transport to Castlemungret, and contrary to popular belief is not a condition imposed on Boliden for the Tara Mines, in fact it is a condition of contract with IE that road transport must be provided for by IE if they can't run the train for whatever reason and this has happened on many occasions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    GM228 wrote: »
    The Shale ran from Kilmastulla, not Silvermines (that was the Barytes train).

    Rail haulage was never a PP condition for transport to Castlemungret, and contrary to popular belief is not a condition imposed on Boliden for the Tara Mines, in fact it is a condition of contract with IE that road transport must be provided for by IE if they can't run the train for whatever reason and this has happened on many occasions.




    I'm almost 101% certain that it was a condition of planning permission for the mine that the ore be moved to Dublin Port by rail.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I'm almost 101% certain that it was a condition of planning permission for the mine that the ore be moved to Dublin Port by rail.

    Droves of trucks have regularly shipped ore from Navan to Dublin Port, both in lieu of a train and as a supplement to it, if not permitted then this would never happen.

    It's been reported alright in many places that it is a condition but, the licence T&Cs have never been made public and are subject to lots of speculation, however there was a mid 1990s Oireachtas debate on planning for mines in which the then Minister for Marine and Natural Resources Michael Woods stated that the road/rail option was a matter for the mining company alone and the matter could not be dictated, I'll try and find it.

    The contract between Boliden and IE has always had a clause that IE would use road transport in lieu of the train if needed, again if not permitted it would not be in the contract.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    GM228 wrote: »
    There was an issue with carrying 45ft 9'6" reefer containers, however that issue has been sorted and such containers are cleared from next week between Waterford/Dublin and Ballina so the XPO liner is back on track, but no start date.

    Just an update on this, contracts have now been signed and the XPO liner is due to commence in 3 weeks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    GM228 wrote: »
    Just an update on this, contracts have now been signed and the XPO liner is due to commence in 3 weeks.

    Yes, heard it on the radio.
    Xpo seem to have a capable communication officer.
    It is great news.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    tabbey wrote: »
    Yes, heard it on the radio.
    Xpo seem to have a capable communication officer.
    It is great news.

    The PR spin being put on it would make it seem like good news alright.. I would give it a mixed news


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    The PR spin being put on it would make it seem like good news alright.. I would give it a mixed news

    Thank you for letting us know that it is not entirely good news. Is it perhaps at the expense of the existing Dublin- Mayo railway traffic?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    tabbey wrote: »
    Thank you for letting us know that it is not entirely good news. Is it perhaps at the expense of the existing Dublin- Mayo railway traffic?

    Unless IE have been hiding a full set of LX wagons and a couple of vacuum freight trained drivers for the past 10 years, they don't actually have the resources to support the new business.. But never let fine details get in the way of a good news story


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Unless IE have been hiding a full set of LX wagons and a couple of vacuum freight trained drivers for the past 10 years, they don't actually have the resources to support the new business.. But never let fine details get in the way of a good news story


    So you're saying it's all a pack of lies and the company involved are just taking the proverbial and the new service isn't going to happen? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Unless IE have been hiding a full set of LX wagons and a couple of vacuum freight trained drivers for the past 10 years, they don't actually have the resources to support the new business.. But never let fine details get in the way of a good news story

    Would the container pocket wagons be a help? Saw a half dozen in Waterford yesterday.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    So you're saying it's all a pack of lies and the company involved are just taking the proverbial and the new service isn't going to happen? :rolleyes:

    No, I’m fairly sure XPO are a serious business proposition for IE.. What I’m saying is IE don’t have the resources to operate the announced service as well as” continuing to work with existing customers” to use their own words


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    tabbey wrote: »
    Would the container pocket wagons be a help? Saw a half dozen in Waterford yesterday.

    IE quoting 8 month lead time to restore to service so no use for end of june


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    I had assumed that xpo and iwt were the same or connected, it sounds like I was mistaken.

    Are both competing for the same customer, coca cola, or is there an additional source of traffic?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Can the spoil wagons not be used as a last resort if their that short?

    I'd presume it's some of the Dublin traffic will just divert back to Waterford. I doubt they'd be signing contracts if they couldn't provide the service.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭91wx763


    A Waterford IE fiend tells me it's only going to Sallypark yard but the customer hasn't realised that yet.....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Mimon


    12 YO son is mad into trains and would like to get a video of an Irish freight train.

    Was thinking just parking up near the Tara mines line near a level crossing and waiting it out. How many are running there per day does anyone know?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    91wx763 wrote: »
    A Waterford IE fiend tells me it's only going to Sallypark yard but the customer hasn't realised that yet.....

    Why would it only go as far as Sallypark?

    Whatever some might think of IE their both professional companies doing business here. I'd be fairly certain both companies have had detailed discussions about the service and have agreed and ironed out exactly how and where the service will run too before signing contracts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭Rootsblower


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Why would it only go as far as Sallypark?

    Whatever some might think of IE their both professional companies doing business here. I'd be fairly certain both companies have had detailed discussions about the service and have agreed and ironed out exactly how and where the service will run too before signing contracts.


    Finally some sense


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    91wx763 wrote: »
    A Waterford IE fiend tells me it's only going to Sallypark yard but the customer hasn't realised that yet.....

    Is the railway between Sallypark and Belview closed now?
    I thought that the track beside the closed main platforms was available for freight movement towards the Rosslare direction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Mimon wrote: »
    12 YO son is mad into trains and would like to get a video of an Irish freight train.

    Was thinking just parking up near the Tara mines line near a level crossing and waiting it out. How many are running there per day does anyone know?

    There is one main level crossing at Beauparc, midway between Navan and Drogheda. Another one at Navan station itself.
    It's difficult to be sure that a particular Tara train will run at all, never mind on time, but loaded trains usually leave Navan about 0900 or 0930 on weekdays getting to Dublin North Wall about 1100. The second one leaves Navan about midday getting to Dublin about 1430.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    tabbey wrote: »
    Is the railway between Sallypark and Belview closed now?
    I thought that the track beside the closed main platforms was available for freight movement towards the Rosslare direction.

    It was closed for a few weeks earlier this year to facilitate demolition work on the north quays, old IE dormitory and the cottages alongside the line.. It’s back open now but there is a possibility it will be closed for up to 2 years if the north quays and new station construction goes ahead.. The work in Sallypark may just be as a fall back option if the North quays goes ahead


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Why would the line need to close for 2 years. The line will be separate from the development.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Why would the line need to close for 2 years. The line will be separate from the development.

    The development includes a new station over the existing line.. You can't build over an active rail line, so it is proposed to take the line under a T3 possession to facilitate the work..

    https://waterfordnorthquays.ie/construction-of-a-new-transport-hub/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    The development includes a new station over the existing line.. You can't build over an active rail line, so it is proposed to take the line under a T3 possession to facilitate the work..

    https://waterfordnorthquays.ie/construction-of-a-new-transport-hub/

    I am familiar with the term "possession", but what specifically is a T3 possession?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    The development includes a new station over the existing line.. You can't build over an active rail line, so it is proposed to take the line under a T3 possession to facilitate the work..

    https://waterfordnorthquays.ie/construction-of-a-new-transport-hub/

    The station concourse will be over the line. It's basically a bridge and not much different than Parkwest, Clondalkin or what's planned for Kylmore, if that goes ahead. They didn't need to close rail lines for 2 years to build them.

    Other than relaying the line I can't see why the line would need to be closed for a prolonged period. It's a precast structure so will be assembled rather easily.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    They built a new roof over Pearse with a few weekend closures, so no problem operate under the works if a crash deck is installed or you crane in the bits over a long weekend. Most decks are cast off site anyway

    They built Adamstown, Parkwest etc with minimal operational impact, certainly didn't close the Dublin Cork mainline for 2 years

    Lots of doom sayers looking for problems.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    Up to 2 years is what I was told.. Same source as the 8 months to re-instate the pocket wagons.. Both times do seem excessive to me, but maybe there is an element of engineers within IE quoting longer times than people might expect things to take


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Whatever happens it will prob be fine for the next year anyway now that a new developers are been looked for. Council will not start on the station until overall work starts.

    If the will is there traffic can flow to the port, yes closure needed but 24/7 closure is the easier option which IE are used to. If that fails PoW and Eamon Ryan will put the pressure on in due course and disruption will be limited and solutions found!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Page 14:
    Construction Stage CE Response:
    While it is proposed to close the line during
    construction to expedite the works as efficiently,
    cost effectively and safely as possible, the
    existing track will remain in place and will be
    available for limited use should it be necessary.
    Such use could impact on the delivery of the
    project and requirements would therefore be
    reviewed on a case by case basis. The track and
    signalling alterations, which will be carried out
    during the latter stages of construction, will result
    in disruption to the access to Belview but every
    reasonable effort will be made to minimise
    disruption.

    https://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/media/projects/public-consultations/sdz-transport-hub/190911%20CE%20Report%20Transport%20Hub.pdf

    No creditable reason for long term closure during construction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »

    Makes sense.

    I see the plans and drawings show double track running up to Plunkett. Is there any info if the double track will continue up to Limerick Jct line.

    Have they announced what will happen with the old station?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Up to 2 years is what I was told.. Same source as the 8 months to re-instate the pocket wagons.. Both times do seem excessive to me, but maybe there is an element of engineers within IE quoting longer times than people might expect things to take

    How long are the pockets out of use? Where not been used to supplement the Dublin service?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    IE 222 wrote: »
    How long are the pockets out of use? Where not been used to supplement the Dublin service?

    Since the end of the DFDS service, so since the end of June 2018..

    Dublin-Ballina uses 3 sets of flat wagons, pocket's havent been on IWT's since summer 2017


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »

    I'll pass the message back to my sources in IE for you so and they can take it up with the IM


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Since the end of the DFDS service, so since the end of June 2018..

    Dublin-Ballina uses 3 sets of flat wagons, pocket's have been on IWT's since summer 2017

    Cheers, I thought they were moved onto Dublin freight for the extra flows. As you say 8 months sounds a bit far fetched for any stock to under go exams ect.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    I'll pass the message back to my sources in IE for you so and they can take it up with the IM

    You sure can!

    I don't want to argue with you but the railway line doesn't need to close for the majority of the project. The council response will have been directly fed back from IE who I understand requested it to be operational.

    If XPO starts and proves to be successful they should be considered a priority by IE and all reasonable avenues explored to ensure full operations. Longer liners could possibly help to reduce the number of movements during any construction.
    Makes sense.

    I see the plans and drawings show double track running up to Plunkett. Is there any info if the double track will continue up to Limerick Jct line.

    Have they announced what will happen with the old station?

    Anything other than the double is unknown (the published reports say design is IE area), it should be double from the new station to where they branch off today. The whole yard will likely be done so they should do it right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭DoctorPan


    tabbey wrote: »
    I am familiar with the term "possession", but what specifically is a T3 possession?

    Full line closure, given over to CCE department. Also know as a Green Zone or Green Line Working.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    You sure can!

    I don't want to argue with you but the railway line doesn't need to close for the majority of the project. The council response will have been directly fed back from IE who I understand requested it to be operational.

    If XPO starts and proves to be successful they should be considered a priority by IE and all reasonable avenues explored to ensure full operations. Longer liners could possibly help to reduce the number of movements during any construction.



    Anything other than the double is unknown (the published reports say design is IE area), it should be double from the new station to where they branch off today. The whole yard will likely be done so they should do it right.

    Running the return service on the same day is another option. I'd imagine at the time of writing them plans there was no services in the pipeline.

    Doubling all the way up would be pretty much as good as a 3rd platform. The drawings also show tracks slightly venturing up the New Ross line, will this be used for stabling?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭tnegun


    What congestion does the IWT liner cause that its being refused access to the port? Surely it be timed or held in the NW yard to arrive the port at the least congested time or what am I missing?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    It seems like a crazy decision hopefully it will be reversed in time. The level of congestion doesn't seem proportionate to this decision but then again I don't know how they operate.

    Its 10 years next month since the rail extension opened. I note it was DP who funded this. Had it been IE at the time prehaps they would have had more influence. In theory could they just return to loading/unloading at Alexandra like before?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    so the train can't access the particular terminal due to congestion, yet i would imagine the load will now go by road to dublin port, adding more congestion.
    because presumably this is a whole port issue since if it was just that terminal then they could accommodate overload in other parts of the port?
    makes no sense to me anyway, but perhapse more information will come out in due course which will clear things up.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    tnegun wrote: »
    What congestion does the IWT liner cause that its being refused access to the port? Surely it be timed or held in the NW yard to arrive the port at the least congested time or what am I missing?

    Since the main access to Dublin port was moved to the promenade road, there has been very little road traffic on Alexandra road.
    If a truck driver complains about a few minutes delay while a train reverses down Alexandra road, he should be told to use the other entry.
    Perhaps Dublin Port company mean shipping congestion, in which case I W T should do business with Waterford Port.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Is this the reason Waterford is restarting or is this lost business?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Is this the reason Waterford is restarting or is this lost business?

    it comes across to me that this was sudden, so likely lost business if so.
    guess we will have to wait and see.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭DoctorPan


    Reports coming in that Dublin Port has relented and the liner will start again next week


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    DoctorPan wrote: »
    Reports coming in that Dublin Port has relented and the liner will start again next week

    Good news. Seen as Coca Cola purposely opt for rail transport on this route could they've played a part in getting it back on the rails? I doubt they were to happy about Dublin Port dictating and forcing their goods back onto the road.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Given the Irish Times just reported the link as severed this morning it seems that it hasn’t/ won’t be restarted.


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