Freight rail in Ireland

GM228 · 13-04-2021 11:59am

It's not actually a tender for freight wagons, rather a tender for consultancy services in relation to a potential future freight wagon tender.

MyLove4Satan · 13-04-2021 4:41pm

GM228 wrote: »

It's not actually a tender for freight wagons, rather a tender for consultancy services in relation to a potential future freight wagon tender.

Pedantry aside this is a positive development.

Rootsblower · 13-04-2021 6:37pm

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Pedantry aside this is a positive development.

Lots of positive vibes within IR regarding freight expansion. Heard it’s only a matter of time before Waterford to Ballina liner service returns.

IE 222 · 14-04-2021 12:06am

Is there any potential or ever any talk of the coca cola plant in Lisburn using rail freight, it could easily be rail connected. Does Ballina supply them with any of the product they produce? Does that plant just use Belfast or Larne for import/export.

Losty Dublin · 14-04-2021 10:25am

IE 222 wrote: »

Is there any potential or ever any talk of the coca cola plant in Lisburn using rail freight, it could easily be rail connected. Does Ballina supply them with any of the product they produce? Does that plant just use Belfast or Larne for import/export.

As far as I know Lisburn just makes the finished product for the retail market, which means that we are back to the age old problem of Last Mile logistics that besets most modern rail freight.

L1011 · 14-04-2021 9:00pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Is there any potential or ever any talk of the coca cola plant in Lisburn using rail freight, it could easily be rail connected. Does Ballina supply them with any of the product they produce? Does that plant just use Belfast or Larne for import/export.

Wouldn't make sense to bring its supply of concentrate goop by rail as it'd basically be a single container every so often.

Also, its a different company entirely - Coke is *weird* this way - so they won't have the same contracts etc for outbound stuff as well as the issues of getting it to individual markets

(Basically, Coca Cola Inc make the goo and sell it plus licencing to "bottlers", some of which they own like the one in Great Britain; and some of which are independent franchisers - like the one here. There used to be more than one bottler for ROI which is part of why there were so many small bottling plants around the country; but now its all Hellenic)

IE 222 · 14-04-2021 9:52pm

I would've thought they'd be bringing in a lot of raw products for the production up there but I suppose the concentrate reduces all that. Did the transfer of the Athy plant to Ballina see an increase in freight? As in, whatever road deliveries going to Athy did the equivalent volume move to rail into Ballina?

L1011 · 14-04-2021 10:00pm

IE 222 wrote: »

I would've thought they'd be bringing in a lot of raw products for the production up there but I suppose the concentrate reduces all that. Did the transfer of the Athy plant to Ballina see an increase in freight? As in, whatever road deliveries going to Athy did the equivalent volume move to rail into Ballina?

I'd think it's more plausible that the Athy transfer increased outbound freight. How much inbound freight for Coca Cola is there?

Monster Energy bought the Athy plant but I don't know if they ever reopened it - COVID interfered there.

cokeiscrap · 14-04-2021 10:04pm

tabbey wrote: »

cokeiscrap wrote: »

I appreciate that coca cola is the second largest consignor of rail freight in Ireland, and must confess to stretching topics myself, but I find this sort of post most inappropriate on this forum.

Agreed and apologies for that.
Sometimes you have to answer back when outright lies are been spouted back to you.
Coca-Cola shut down 2 heavily unionised plants in Drogheda and Athy and moved all to Ballina.
I don't think it was to save the rail freight in Ireland that they did this.

cokeiscrap · 14-04-2021 10:07pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'd think it's more plausible that the Athy transfer increased outbound freight. How much inbound freight for Coca Cola is there?

Monster Energy bought the Athy plant but I don't know if they ever reopened it - COVID interfered there.

Monster is part owned by coke so probably didn't "buy" Athy, rather just moved in. Athy used to make Schweppes, which is also part owned by coke.

L1011 · 14-04-2021 10:09pm

cokeiscrap wrote: »

Monster is part owned by coke so probably didn't "buy" Athy, rather just moved in. Athy used to make Schweppes, which is also part owned by coke.

Coca Cola's Monster interest is a non-controlling stake in a public listed company, so no, they didn't and indeed couldn't just move in - it was actually sold to them, after the plant had closed.

Owning a small stake does not mean you have control of a company or can treat it a subsidiary

cokeiscrap · 14-04-2021 10:23pm

L1011 wrote: »

Coca Cola's Monster interest is a non-controlling stake in a public listed company, so no, they didn't and indeed couldn't just move in - it was actually sold to them, after the plant had closed.

Owning a small stake does not mean you have control of a company or can treat it a subsidiary

19.36% is hardly a small stake.

Stake in Monster Beverage
It was announced on August 14, 2014, that Coca-Cola Co is making a cash payment of $2.15 billion for a 16.7 percent stake in Monster Beverage Corp to expand its market for energy drinks. Coke's ownership in Full Throttle and Burn will be transferred to Monster. In return, Monster will transfer its ownership in Hansen's Natural Sodas and Peace Iced Tea and Blue Sky Soda to The Coca-Cola Company. Muhtar Kent, Coke's former chief executive officer, stated that the company has the option to increase its stake to 25 percent but cannot exceed that percentage in the next four years.[108][109] Due to share buy backs by the board of directors of Monster Beverage Corporation, The Coca-Cola Company's stake has since increased to 19.36% 102121602 shares.

L1011 · 14-04-2021 10:24pm

cokeiscrap wrote: »

19.36% is hardly a small stake.

Its an entirely non-controlling stake, which is my point. They are not the same company.

monument · 14-04-2021 10:45pm

Sorry, but this is not the place to discuss general union issues.

— moderator

IE 222 · 14-04-2021 11:02pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'd think it's more plausible that the Athy transfer increased outbound freight. How much inbound freight for Coca Cola is there?

Monster Energy bought the Athy plant but I don't know if they ever reopened it - COVID interfered there.

Not sure what the balance is between inbound and outbound but I presumed the raw products come in by rail to produce the outbound product going back out by rail.

IE 222 · 14-04-2021 11:13pm

What sort of life expectancy do the current flat wagons have? Are the timbers due for renewal as well.

andrewfaulk · 16-04-2021 3:10pm

GM228 wrote: »

It's not actually a tender for freight wagons, rather a tender for consultancy services in relation to a potential future freight wagon tender.

I would be more qualified than most to comment on this, but is still hardly needs a consultant to write the tender..

It's a short list to make for the requirements:

Ore Wagons
- 75 Tonne capacity
- Air Brakes
- 30 units for delivery ASAP, with 30 more units as options if Pallas Green ever happens

Container wagons
- Air Brakes
- 75MPH operation
- 45ft deck length
- Max deck height to be no higher than existing LX wagons
- 70 units for delivery ASAP, options for a further 25

tabbey · 16-04-2021 4:17pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

I would be more qualified than most to comment on this, but is still hardly needs a consultant to write the tender..

It's a short list to make for the requirements:

Ore Wagons
- 75 Tonne capacity
- Air Brakes
- 30 units for delivery ASAP, with 30 more units as options if Pallas Green ever happens

Container wagons
- Air Brakes
- 75MPH operation
- 45ft deck length
- Max deck height to be no higher than existing LX wagons
- 70 units for delivery ASAP, options for a further 25

I am entirely satisfied that you are more than qualified to comment on this topic.
Regarding the ore wagons, I had the idea that 75 or 78 tons was the gross weight of the laden Tara mines wagons, rather than the loading capacity, but if the requirement is for a wagon capable of carrying 75 tons of ore, the gross weight would be substantially more.
The other unknown is whether there is a long term future for the mine, sufficient to justify buying new wagons. If ore traffic was to cease or even just drop the new wagons would be redundant, whereas road trucks would simply operate other contracts.
When Tara started forty odd years ago, roads were poor, today a truck could convey a load of ore to Dublin port, tip it and get back to Navan as soon as the train would reach the port.
It is not something I would wish for but the mine management might, rather than invest in new rolling stock.

end of the road · 16-04-2021 4:25pm

apparently the planning permission for the mine stipulates rail haulage must be used.

tabbey · 16-04-2021 4:27pm

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the planning permission for the mine stipulates rail haulage must be used.

That is a relief, although there is nothing to stop them applying for a change.

andrewfaulk · 16-04-2021 4:27pm

tabbey wrote: »

I am entirely satisfied that you are more than qualified to comment on this topic.
Regarding the ore wagons, I had the idea that 75 or 78 tons was the gross weight of the laden Tara mines wagons, rather than the loading capacity, but if the requirement is for a wagon capable of carrying 75 tons of ore, the gross weight would be substantially more.
The other unknown is whether there is a long term future for the mine, sufficient to justify buying new wagons. If ore traffic was to cease or even just drop the new wagons would be redundant, whereas road trucks would simply operate other contracts.
When Tara started forty odd years ago, roads were poor, today a truck could convey a load of ore to Dublin port, tip it and get back to Navan as soon as the train would reach the port.
It is not something I would wish for but the mine management might, rather than invest in new rolling stock.

Sorry, should of course read Max weight 75 Tonnes when loaded..

Tara mines will be on the rails for at least another 20 years, the mines life is till 2040 at current production levels..

L1011 · 16-04-2021 4:49pm

Tara's planning permission requires rail. Any other similar mine would likely too

91wx763 · 18-04-2021 10:29am

end of the road wrote: »

apparently the planning permission for the mine stipulates rail haulage must be used.

I posed a question to the mayor/photo opportunity leader of Waterford City and County council Damian Geoghegan- "What if oil is struck off Dungarvan and the planning says rail must be used for the heavy traffic (as per Quigley Magnesite did back in the day), how will your support for the greenway stand then ?"

He went off on a load of verbal diarrhea and never answered the question.....

donvito99 · 18-04-2021 11:58am

91wx763 wrote: »

I posed a question to the mayor/photo opportunity leader of Waterford City and County council Damian Geoghegan- "What if oil is struck off Dungarvan and the planning says rail must be used for the heavy traffic (as per Quigley Magnesite did back in the day), how will your support for the greenway stand then ?"

He went off on a load of verbal diarrhea and never answered the question.....

If oil is struck off Dungarvan what would be the need for rail freight?

Platform > pipeline/tanker > refinery

Sounds like he was trying not to offend you by answering your question.

Jamie2k9 · 18-04-2021 12:21pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Sounds like he was trying not to offend you by answering your question.

DG wouldn't be the brightest tool in the box to know that!

91wx763 asked a loaded question knowing full well what type of answer would be provided.

end of the road · 18-04-2021 12:40pm

donvito99 wrote: »

If oil is struck off Dungarvan what would be the need for rail freight?

Platform > pipeline/tanker > refinery

Sounds like he was trying not to offend you by answering your question.

or more likely he couldn't answer it.
perhapse his support for the greenway wasn't actually genuine but more about photo ops also, but
who knows.

end of the road · 18-04-2021 12:41pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

DG wouldn't be the brightest tool in the box to know that!

91wx763 asked a loaded question knowing full well what type of answer would be provided.

nothing wrong with that to be fair, it can be a good way to flush out answers to other questions, unknowingly to the individual being asked the original question.
it's a tactic i use to great effect in relation to a number of issues, when politicians come knocking on the door at election time.

Jamie2k9 · 18-04-2021 1:33pm

end of the road wrote: »

nothing wrong with that to be fair, it can be a good way to flush out answers to other questions, unknowingly to the individual being asked the original question.
it's a tactic i use to great effect in relation to a number of issues, when politicians come knocking on the door at election time.

Not at all however lets say a rail link was required who would pay the hundreds of millions to reopen the line including a River Suir bridge. In reality rail would not be attached to planning.

Typical rail enthusiast question.

91wx763 · 18-04-2021 4:44pm

Lovely stuff lads.

Tarmac and greenway the lot then why don't we.....

end of the road · 18-04-2021 5:48pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not at all however lets say a rail link was required who would pay the hundreds of millions to reopen the line including a River Suir bridge. In reality rail would not be attached to planning.

Typical rail enthusiast question.

it potentially might be unless as another poster mentioned they could pipe it out to a tanker.
or the haul out was tiny such that the roads could cope with it in which case i would suspect extraction might not be viable.
but who knows as there will be no oil discovered to find out.

Freight rail in Ireland

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