Freight rail in Ireland

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118265156#Comment_118265156

Probably no mention because we all know this is pie in the sky and IE management are just making reports again.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290711#Comment_118290711

What a cynical and negative comment. Given the lack of interest in rail transport by the DoT, the NTA and other bodies it's good to see Irish Rail making a case for more business. It certainly beats the old attitude of some years ago to close whatever they could.

end of the road

it's not pie in the sky in that it isn't deliverable as it is deliverable if the will is there.

it's pie in the sky in that there is no will to deliver it the same as every other rail report that has suggested proper investment hasn't been delivered.

the same company ran rampage over every bit of freight infrastructure that existed and obliterated it or sold it off and would have done the same in mayo but for the relevant representatives and others down there who thankfully stood up and fought back.

irish rail are another extension of the very same problematic DUT and NTA, and it doesn't matter how many organisations of management to manage the management to manage the management we have, without a culture shift then nothing happens.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290971#Comment_118290971

What's you solution then? The IE document has a lot of sensible proposals. What a different generation of management did is not really relevant. Arguably the IE proposals represent the sort of culture shift you talk about.

The Nu man in town

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291002#Comment_118291002

Management might have changed but if they get too many freight services going some group like The Continuity ILDA will pop up and scupper everything.

As sure as night follows day.

Rootsblower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291872#Comment_118291872

As a train driver with considerable service who worked through the ILDA dispute I’m gonna wager that your talking out of your you know what. Train drivers are contracted to drive trains day or night 5 days a week. There’s no magical group of drivers that can scupper any effort IE make to run trains as long as the shifts are within your contracted hours. To frankly suggest otherwise is just plain ignorance.

Furthermore I doubt you have any idea what the ILDA dispute was about. Whilst most drivers at the time were not members of ILDA most drivers did agree with their position but just not the implementation of their dispute. Since that dispute many of ILDA’s demands have been implemented such as no forced overtime or what were known as “contingency drivers”

Your anti trade union bias clouds your view on a subject you more than likely know nothing about.

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118293176#Comment_118293176

ILDA was a death sentence for rail friengt in Ireland. At the time I was telling myself most train drivers do not support Ogle (a mysterious individual by any accounts) and now you confirm that most drivers did support them. Thanks for this. It finally answers a question I long wondered about and why ILDA were allowed to do what they did. They had the clandestine blessing of all the drivers.

Rootsblower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295434#Comment_118295434

Freight declined on Irish rail for 2 reasons. Lack of interest by senior management and uneconomic flows though not all flows were uneconomic.

Take a typical liner train back then. It was generally 18 or 21 lx/lp wagons, IE sold each slot separately so they had to attract possibly 18/21 different customers. Nowadays IWT or XPO contract the whole train so it’s no skin of iE’s nose if the train is full or empty. They get paid. There is no subsidy for freight it must cover its cost. Bulk flows for one customer such as Smartply or Irish cement I reckon would have been profitable. Ammonia was a money spinner for IE because it was dangerous goods and truckers needed special permits to haul it which was expensive, IE didn’t. Beet trains were pots of gold worth at the time €8m per season.

I said the sentiments and aims of ILDA were supported by most drivers but ILDA as an organisation were not, there’s a difference. During the 10 week dispute all non-ILDA drivers worked their turns of duty including their freight jobs. IE chose to prioritise passenger turns over freight that’s not the fault of any driver. ILDA done what they did cos 56 men were lead up a dead end and nobody or nothing could stop them. Remember none of these drivers were paid a penny for 10 weeks. It wouldn’t happen now as very few could afford it. IE couldn’t put a gun to their heads and tell them to get back to work. In fact some of them were actually sacked. Very few are left driving. A lot left the driving grade and most are supervisors/senior managers now or retired.

As for Brendan Ogle, I knew the man, quite a well read guy ,very articulate and knowledgeable regarding industrial relations matters but a bit of a chancer really. I would imagine he hoped that he would establish a driver only union with him as the head with the salary that goes with it(he had form in this regard) He tried to rope in the ATGWU and ASLEF but that didn’t go far. Ultimately the high court sealed his fate.

The winds of change are blowing through IE regarding freight and I for one am glad to see it and so are most drivers as it means more revenue for the company and more drivers jobs(which anyone can apply for now)

Despite the belief that train drivers are Leon Trotsky and Arthur Scargills lovechildren and have some agenda to scupper IE, I can assure you we are not. We all have bills to pay and hope the company gets busier to secure our jobs.

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298828#Comment_118298828

Fair enough. I am delighted to hear this.

Economics101

Thanks, Rootsblower, for that very fair and informative post. Puts this discussion back on the rails, so to speak.

Pete_Cavan

Has there ever been consideration of a direct curve from Dublin - Cork line east bound to Waterford line south bound to access Belview?

end of the road

not that i am aware of.

it would certainly make things more efficient but i suppose it's not going to be done for some freight trains as if they were to sease there would be a curve left with no usage.

sporty56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298828#Comment_118298828

Brendan Ogle was just one element in the overall plan by certain politicians co-operating with some in IR management as well as developer interests to close the rail freight facilities in Dublin's North Wall area. His role was to disrupt freight while maintaining passenger services thus ensuring general public apathy. The entire complex but very clever scheme was successful due in no small part to Ogle making eejits out the drivers to persuade long standing users of rail freight to switch to road. The political elements party to the plan got the lands they wanted for the developers and their toll road friends are also smiling ever since as well. These were the main beneficiaries but there were others as well like road haulage operators and their fuel suppliers.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321814#Comment_118321814

Ogle bears responsibility for the railfreight debacle. Others bear responsibility for the sale of lands at North Wall. Linking the two smacks of a conspiracy, and in Ireland cockup dominates conspiracy every time.

Whenn you look at the disposal of Irish Rail land in docklands, the amount of borrowing to finance new buildings (and the purchase of the land) must have been enormous, and it's a fair bet that a lot of the loans went sour in the crash of 2008-11, thus costing the taxpayer billions. A real train wreck.

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323304#Comment_118323304

Of course it was a conspiracy! The idea of mocking conspiracies - which happen all the time - is a card played by the guilty party to demean and belittle the people who have figured the very real scam out. Somehow connect them to Flat Earthers and it works only too good as an entire generation has grown up thinking that powerful and connected people would never 'conspire' to make themselves more powerful and more connected.

This utterly bizarre concept that conspiracies do not happen ever, is the primary reason most of us are living in a Pfizer Police State right now. North Wall was a 'conspiracy' please deal with it.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333210#Comment_118333210

So North Wall was sold because they arranged with Ogle to undermine the railfreight business? Do you have any evidence for that, and I mean real evidence. Such a large conspiracy must have left some real evidential trail.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333210#Comment_118333210

most of us are living in a Pfizer Police State right now

Jesus wept 🙄

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316928#Comment_118316928

Triple track between Kildare and Cherryville would probably be a better spend; while several bridges would have to be widened, it would benefit both freight and passenger, and not have to find a way through the M7 while negotiating a tight curve

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118341274#Comment_118341274

That would still leave the necessity of freight train locos having to run around at Kildare, which is surely a potentially major source of congestion and even if it does not impact on other services is costly in terms of time and labour. Facing crossover south of Cherryville and a direct chord to the Waterford road off the Down main line should not be all that difficult (M7 bridge notwithstanding).

Peregrine

Up to 400 new wagons over 10 years. Initial order of 200.

andrewfaulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118656712#Comment_118656712

What's the source for that? Had been told some of it verbally but nothing in writing.. Still 3 years away, so 3 more years on capacity shortages unless something changes

Pete_Cavan

Here is Iarnród Éireann's PIN on etenders;

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/207672/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Jamie2k9

XPO adding a second weekly Waterford-Ballina. Anyone know what they are transporrting on the two loads that originate outside Europe?

https://www.afloat.ie/port-news/item/54664-second-freight-train-from-port-of-waterdord-starts-service

Economics101

The huge rise in Diesel prices must work to the railway's advantage as fully loaded trains bring ever greater cost competitiveness. A good time for IE's freight plans to get some real government backing, starting with a review of Ireland's very high rail access charges.

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333320#Comment_118333320

Have you died of that illness called 'Suddenly' and 'Unexpectedly' yet? I will be checking on you from time to time concerning this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141100#Comment_119141100

Thats nice

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141124#Comment_119141124

You are welcome.

Losty Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119109024#Comment_119109024

XPO were envisaging up to 2-3 return train loads a week when they announced their rail freight service. Word on the ground is that they could be looking at a fourth regular working before the end of Summer such are their loadings either way.

andrewfaulk

Have you actually seen the loadings, they don’t in any way match the PR!

Not sure who you are talking to “on the ground”

Board Walker

I was just discussing with my neighbour yesterday who works in Mallow station. The entire freight network of Ireland now was nearly the same as Mallow back in 2000. Between Mallow-Tralee Containers/kegs, Mallow-North Wall containers, the fertiliser and the Beet!

What have we now? Ballina-North Wall containers, Ballina-Waterford Port Containers, Ballina-Waterford Timer and 4 x daily Tara Mines - Alexandra road ore? Is that all?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170835#Comment_119170835

There's more freight carried on trucking in Ireland in one day than a whole year on rail. It really is a tiny amount by comparison

Board Walker

Amazing how much was transferred by rail before. Cement and its raw materials and Beet alone were huge!

Losty Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119155108#Comment_119155108

A Heuston driver said it to me recently.

Losty Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170835#Comment_119170835

Lots of the flows are no longer there for the taking any more. Bell Ferries went bust, as did IFI. Asahi left Ireland; they were a big customer Beet growing isn't subsidised by Europe but by then it was a fading market and seasonal in nature. As for the kegs, Guinness changed their logistics from one of regional rail hubs and staff drivers to one of sub contracted carriers delivering on a point to point basis.

andrewfaulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119176990#Comment_119176990

He's well off the mark, the second train has basically just diluted the load across two trains instead of one, so ending up with about 6-8 per train instead of 12-16 when there was one round trip..

No scope to add much more than 2 trips per week either, not enough drivers trained on Loco and Vac brakes

Board Walker

Whats the business case like for Cork container traffic?

I guess not having a rail link either the new or old port shoots it all in the foot.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177011#Comment_119177011

Guinness still have regional hubs. In fact the one in Limerick is literally beside the railway line!

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.6665271,-8.5095054,117m/data=!3m1!1e3

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179216#Comment_119179216

I note that the tender documents for the new wagons specify "IÉ is considering operating new wagon fleets at higher speeds & incorporating more efficient & safer technologies e.g., two pipe air brakes, disc brakes , latch / buckeye couplers with integral buffing capability & integration of self-charging tail lamps." Hopefully "higher speeds" also means 75mph running on 90-100mph passenger sections, at least for containers. Is the intent to pair these with new freight power as opposed to refitting 071s with air or cobbling together what hasn't rusted out of the 201s in storage?

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119201875#Comment_119201875

071s are airbraked.

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202136#Comment_119202136

Thanks - I thought they were vacuum only for train brake but there is a summary on document page 8 (page 14 of the actual PDF) here https://www.raiu.ie/assets/files/pdf/2012r002_runaway_locomotive_at_portlaoise_loop.pdf

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202342#Comment_119202342

071s can handle air or vacuum braked rolling stock. It's only wagons or coaches which are one type of brake or the other. Formerly most drivers would have driven both air and vacuum braked trains regularly, but the vacuum-braked freight trains are now comparatively rare, so I guess they have to take a refresher course.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202482#Comment_119202482

It's 50/50 vac/air braked freight flows. Timber and Taras are airbraked along with the HOPs set, while the liners and rest of Pway fleet are still vac braked.

Jamie2k9

IRISH Rail (IÉ) has issued a request for tenders for an eight-year framework agreement worth an estimated €120m to supply up to 400 wagons, including a base order for 200 wagons.

The base order includes up to 30 ore wagons. Bidders must have experience of designing and supplying infrastructure, intermodal, and ore wagons for operation at up to 120km/h.

IÉ says it is considering operating new wagons at higher speeds, which will require modern safety features including a twin-pipe air braking system, disc brakes, and latch/buckeye couplers with integral buffing capability.

The contract can be extended by two years at IE’s discretion.

Tendering is being conducted in a two-stage process: a prequalification process to establish that manufacturers have relevant experience to meet IÉ’s requirements, followed by an invitation to tender to those companies that prequalify during the first stage.

https://www.railjournal.com/freight/irish-rail-opens-tender-for-up-to-400-new-wagons/

Captain Chaos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119210378#Comment_119210378

Actually, the taras are vac braked along with all the container flats. The spoil wagons are vac braked too.

The 60ft timber and Pway 60ft flats for the CWR train are air braked along with the container pocket wagons and HOBs.

Jamie2k9

Saw some comments from XPO managment saying they are hoping to expand the XPO service this year. Nothing specific but assume its frequancy.

Hopefully it happens but I don't think the x2 weekly services currently are carrying anywhere new total capacity.

DumbBrunette

Not sure if this was already known, but IE have announced that they're planning a new rail freight hub in Castlebar to serve multinational manufacturers in the West (not Ballina, which would be an obvious choice).

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2023/03/21/mayo-site-identified-for-strategic-rail-freight-hub/

bigroad

Looks like they will reopen the Rosslare to Waterford line.

Salmon Leap

could someone post the approx times the Tara mines trains depart Tara daily?

Thanks in advance.

This will deal a major blow to IE

RTE news : News of Tara Mines closure a massive shock, say workers

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/0614/1389062-tara-mines/

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757492#Comment_119757492

And meanwhile they are cutting up fine wagons that were costing them nothing? Container flats, cement bogies, keg wagons, bulks, all built by CIT in Inchicore now chopped up when they could have been refurbished.