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How do we break the welfare cycle?

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    #62
    bfa1509
    Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭bfa1509


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    and thats only the 'never paid prsi' doesn't account for all the other fraud.
    Trust me I know! A 22 year old of non-irish, non-european origin in the class behind me in college scammed €70,000+ out of the state. They postponed his slap on the wrist so that he could finish his masters!! I shudder to think how many don't get caught.


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    #63
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think the point stands though, despite the pathetic attempt at mathematics:


    -Are we really saying that the behaviour of less than 1% of the population, many of whom suffer extreme hardship, is a national crisis?


    -And are we really saying that a 500-million-euro item in the 77-billion-euro national accounts has degraded the social contract more than all the other challenges facing our society?

    we've the worlds most generous welfare state. theres no hardship.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bfa1509 wrote: »
    Trust me I know! A 22 year old of non-irish, non-european origin


    Non-Irish AND non-European origin, you say?


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    we've the worlds most generous welfare state


    Please quantify this.

    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    theres no hardship.


    There was a blooded syringe left in the lobby of our building the other day. Can't agree with you that this is a utopia.


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    #66
    KevRossi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    My own suggestion is to get the fathers to contribute to child allowance. So you get [for example] 60% of the child allowance rate, but name the father and then he has €50 a week deducted from his SW payment or he pays a percent of his wages for each child. A bit extra is taken every Christmas.

    Parentage is easily proven with DNA tests.

    It would actually put some responsibility on the fathers to contribute to their kids lives, plenty of them are proud to have fathered several kids with several women.

    Along with that the system of community welfare payments needs to be totally overhauled. It's gone from being an emergency payment to being a calculated source of income for many people.
    ronivek wrote: »
    Is this something that has been done in any other countries?

    Yes, Germany has the '1 Euro Job', where after being on the dole for certain length of time you have to go to work, usually in the community sector. It's to get long term employed used to the idea of working again. You get between €1 and €2.80 an hour along with your social welfare payment. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_opportunities_with_additional_expenses_compensation


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    #67
    atilladehun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,564 ✭✭✭atilladehun


    Years ago (10) I remember hearing on the radio a report on a long term interventional study that allowed young pregnant women to get parenting coaching. For some it was their first child, others not.

    They'd meet their worker every quarter over 7 years and learn about the stage their child was at. Be given advice on their child's behaviour, learning stage, what they should be eating and other basics.

    Nearly every child showed major gains on their peers, cousins and siblings. From what I heard the results are outstanding.

    From what I remember it was on Pat Kenny on newstalk and it was a trinity based research. I have never found the details since.

    As I say to anyone who says "they should teach that in schools". Teach the adults and the kids will get it.


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Please quantify this.

    There was a blooded syringe left in the lobby of our building the other day. Can't agree with you that this is a utopia.

    A junkie creates their own hardship. As do most work-shy layabouts who live a life on the scratcher, slowly (unfortunately) eating crap food, sitting on their arses watching brain-rot TV on a 50”+ set that a man calls to be paid for weekly while they develop chronic conditions and manipulate a system for the golden ticket DA payment and an end to fighting for their income.

    Don’t get me started on the forever homes and mickey money lot. Who created that hardship? Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there.


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JayZeus wrote: »
    A junkie creates their own hardship. As do most work-shy layabouts who live a life on the scratcher, slowly (unfortunately) eating crap food, sitting on their arses watching brain-rot TV on a 50”+ set that a man calls to be paid for weekly while they develop chronic conditions and manipulate a system for the golden ticket DA payment and an end to fighting for their income.

    Don’t get me started on the forever homes and mickey money lot. Who created that hardship? Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there.


    Lost my dad to opioid addiction and then suicide, mate. Hardest-working man I've ever met, and my best friend. Wasn't known to eat "crap food" or "sit on his arse watching brain-rot TV on a 50"+ set" as you describe. "A junkie creates their own hardship" you say. In his case it was a genetic illness.

    Employed 12 people before the hardship. He got sick, the painkillers became a problem and he fought it but he drifted away and got caught in the tide. No "mickey money" or "golden ticket DA payment" or whatever pathetic rubbish you're ranting about here.

    Glad you've no hardship in your life, and thanks for your advice vis-a-vis "Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there" as you say.

    But there is indeed hardship in Irish society and many people have experienced the above. Please show some love to your neighbours and fellow citizens.

    And have a good look at yourself and re-read what you write to people on the internet, whether they're "scrounger-spawn" or not, in your loving tribute to the English language.


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    #70
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Many posters here believe it can be fixed from the bottom up.

    Imagine if you and your partner got any fulltime job you could afford rent or maybe one say a house of your own?
    Imagine if you worked hard your entire life and had a nice nest egg put by?

    These once expected things are becoming more fantasy as time moves on. It's not getting better and individuals cannot change that.

    The current FF/FG system us designed to provide private businesses with profit. When the public can't provide it the FF/FG governments use tax payer money to pick up the slack.

    Examples:
    No more social housing builds results in tax payer funded leases and part purchases.
    Poorer amenities and access to health gives business to the private market.
    When it falls on its arse, tax payer funded bail outs.
    We need to put the prosperity of the working individual above the corporate. People before profit if you will. Then we wont need such a welfare spend and we wont have a pensions bomb down the road. If people were able to pay their own way and put some money aside they'd not need a dig out from the tax payer.


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    #71
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    JayZeus wrote: »
    A junkie creates their own hardship. As do most work-shy layabouts who live a life on the scratcher, slowly (unfortunately) eating crap food, sitting on their arses watching brain-rot TV on a 50”+ set that a man calls to be paid for weekly while they develop chronic conditions and manipulate a system for the golden ticket DA payment and an end to fighting for their income.

    Don’t get me started on the forever homes and mickey money lot. Who created that hardship? Deliberate breeding without a means to provide for their scrounger-spawn. Hardship? Get a grip there.

    So how did gerry ryan die? Being a junkie isn't class specific.
    We literally worshipped the church. It's in our Genes to want to have as many children as possible. Some of us anyway. It was literally a goal the church set.


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    #72
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    we've the worlds most generous welfare state. theres no hardship.

    I often wonder do we have the highest % of the pop on welfare?

    It was 50%.

    By 2019 it was about 45%.

    Hard to get good comparative data, so hard to compare with other countries.

    But we do know that we lead Europe in jobless households, that's for sure.

    We are high for lone parenthood.

    We are really high for disability, I often wonder why?


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    #73
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Do you agree that there are a large proportion of welfare recipients who could physically work but choose not to or have actively caused themselves conditions which have led to them being unable to work ?

    Yes, of course.

    We all know this.

    But how do we change it?


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    #74
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    ronivek wrote: »
    Is this something that has been done in any other countries?

    Are the German mini-jobs this idea?

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEU_enIE888IE888&ei=T28GX4mfILiZ1fAPiOOk-Aw&q=German+Hartz+IV+mini+jobs+&oq=German+Hartz+IV+mini+jobs+&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoFCCEQoAE6AggAOgUIABCRAjoECAAQCjoICAAQsQMQkQI6BQgAELEDOgQIABADOgYIABAWEB46CAgAEBYQChAeOgQIABANOgYIABANEB46CAgAEAgQDRAeOgQIABAeOggIABAIEAcQHjoHCCEQChCgAVCfL1iGfmDTgQFoAHAAeACAAVWIAfcKkgECMjaYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjJgt3__r7qAhW4TBUIHYgxCc8Q4dUDCAw&uact=5


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    #75
    mitchelsontour
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭mitchelsontour


    gailforecast wrote: »
    Sure, but people aren’t taxed to the hilt there.

    But they are local taxes, state taxes, sales tax on top of the marked price, health insurance costs.
    We pay something like 12k a year for health insurance and still have copays and a 6k deductible.
    The land of the free it ain't.


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    #76
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    gailforecast wrote:
    How do we stop generational welfare recipients?

    gailforecast wrote:
    Do CE schemes or other work programs work? Or is there another approach we can take which will be effective?


    Heavily invest in our health system, expanding our mental health and psychology departments, integrate these new services and departments into our other major services, I. E. Educational systems, welfare systems, legal systems etc etc, in an attempt to address the underlying issues that causes unemployment in the first place

    The programs mentioned both succeed and fail to deal with the problem, I. E. Some success stories, but they have limitations, some of these programs should continue and be expanded, and be included in the above process.

    Our educational system is academically biased, alternative employment sectors such as the trades are virtually unrepresented within it, or relatively so. The trades should be equally represented within our educational system, and/or create it's own exclusive training system, similar to other countries such as Switzerland etc, giving it equal status to our current educational system

    The sad truth is virtually none of that will actually occuring, so I'm sure things will change!


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    #77
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The states largest welfare recipient is Denis O'Brien for his whole life. I'd reposes his assets and sell them, use the money to build lots of qood quality social, affordable and cost rental housing and put DO'B on a Council housing list. I'd do the same to Lary Goodman, Bertie Ahern etc. They should also be forced to do community service, perhaps sweeping streets. Oh and we should stop blaming the poor for social problems and blame the billionaires who could change things if they wanted to.


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    #78
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The states largest welfare recipient is Denis O'Brien for his whole life. I'd reposes his assets and sell them, use the money to build lots of qood quality social, affordable and cost rental housing and put DO'B on a Council housing list. I'd do the same to Lary Goodman, Bertie Ahern etc. They should also be forced to do community service, perhaps sweeping streets. Oh and we should stop blaming the poor for social problems and blame the billionaires who could change things if they wanted to.

    Larry Goodman and Denis O’Brien have a combined net worth of 5 billion. Last year the country had an expenditure of 77 billion. If we liquidate all of there assets, we’ll have an additional 5 billion for one year, all of which will be gobbled up in welfare from the thousands of people left unemployed from liquidation of said assets.

    How you can blame a billionaire for someone being on the dole their whole life is beyond me.


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    #79
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    ronivek wrote: »
    Is this something that has been done in any other countries?

    Yeah, you've seen them in American movies as "Chain Gangs."


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    #80
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Geuze wrote: »
    Yes, of course.

    We all know this.

    But how do we change it?

    take away the option. Make welfare a safety net for those actually in need, actively work against providing these people the financial resources to build up their drink or drug addictions.

    Converting child benefit to a tax credit and removing housing priority would go a hell of a long way to stopping those young women who wish to follow in their mothers/relatives footsteps and getting knocked up at 17-18 , getting a council flat and never doing a tap.


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    #81
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    519298.jpg
    This graph from dave McWilliams post about disability rates is shocking and pretty decent evidence of the level of fraud thats going on.


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    #82
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    This graph from dave McWilliams post about disability rates is shocking and pretty decent evidence of the level of fraud thats going on.

    go again!


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    #83
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    ever read the court section of the papers and wonder how some/many people up on assault or social misbehavior charges are also on sick or disability benefit?


    I've no figures but it's something I noticed.


    If they're too sick for work they should be too sick for laying the smackdown on people.




    recent example.



    https://www.herald.ie/news/courts/mum-is-charged-with-threat-to-kill-woman-at-shopping-centre-39346160.html

    The judge also granted legal aid after an application by the defence, which said Ms Deans was on disability benefit.


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    #84
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    paw patrol wrote: »
    ever read the court section of the papers and wonder how some/many people up on assault or social misbehavior charges are also on sick or disability benefit?


    I've no figures but it's something I noticed.


    If they're too sick for work they should be too sick for laying the smackdown on people.




    recent example.



    https://www.herald.ie/news/courts/mum-is-charged-with-threat-to-kill-woman-at-shopping-centre-39346160.html

    https://www.thejournal.ie/men-charged-spitting-5059018-Mar2020/?amp=1/

    Father and son accused of spitting on Garda. Both are “disabled”.


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    #85
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    gailforecast wrote: »
    Larry Goodman and Denis O’Brien have a combined net worth of 5 billion. Last year the country had an expenditure of 77 billion. If we liquidate all of there assets, we’ll have an additional 5 billion for one year, all of which will be gobbled up in welfare from the thousands of people left unemployed from liquidation of said assets.

    How you can blame a billionaire for someone being on the dole their whole life is beyond me.

    why would selling an asset mean job losses? If someone owns a hotel for example and sells it to someone else, is it not still a hotel with staff etc.? Ireland's total welfare expenditure in 2019 was €21bn. Do you honestly think that those 2 individuals employ enough people to increase that figure by 25%?? Basically you are claiming that DOB and LG are paying the people they indirectly employ more than their entire net worth every year. How does that add up?

    I'm not blaming them for people who are on the dole I'm blaming them for being on rich mans dole, and you're in full billionaire worship mode. Do you have a Jeff Bezos poster on your wall in your bedsit you work hard for?


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    #86
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's mad the amount of people who STILL believe in trickle down economics. The Irish middle class cannot afford to home themselves, that's where we're at.


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    #87
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    cgcsb wrote: »
    It's mad the amount of people who STILL believe in trickle down economics. The Irish middle class cannot afford to home themselves, that's where we're at.

    its disturbing actually, and many are very well educated and intelligent which makes it even more disturbing


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    #88
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,551 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    If we don't want people literally forced to live on the streets (and some people might think that's ok, I don't), then there is always going to be some sort of safety net there.

    And as long as there's a safety net there, some people are going to exploit it.

    For some it might be health or lack of education or whatever, but there's no doubt that there is an entitlement culture. That's what needs to be targeted, but I've no idea how.


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    #89
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    osarusan wrote: »
    If we don't want people literally forced to live on the streets (and some people might think that's ok, I don't), then there is always going to be some sort of safety net there.

    And as long as there's a safety net there, some people are going to exploit it.

    For some it might be health or lack of education or whatever, but there's no doubt that there is an entitlement culture. That's what needs to be targeted, but I've no idea how.

    go again!


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    #90
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    cgcsb wrote: »
    why would selling an asset mean job losses? If someone owns a hotel for example and sells it to someone else, is it not still a hotel with staff etc.? Ireland's total welfare expenditure in 2019 was €21bn. Do you honestly thin that those 2 individuals employ enough people to increase that figure by 25%??

    I'm not blaming them for people who are on the dole I'm blaming them for being on rich mans dole,

    So your plan is to just sell it to another billionaire? I don’t understand what you want here.

    I also don’t know what you mean by rich mans dole? Why would anybody pay more tax than is absolutely necessary?


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    #91
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    cgcsb wrote: »
    It's mad the amount of people who STILL believe in trickle down economics. The Irish middle class cannot afford to home themselves, that's where we're at.

    In fairness, trickle down economics doesn’t exist in Ireland. Salaries have to be paid before profits, if any, are accrued.


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