Dublin - BusConnects

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 2:22pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Honestly, I think that the NTA are doing the CBC project correctly. I know everyone here would like to have set back bus stops, and taxis banned from the lanes, and more, but the likelihood of that getting through our planning and political system is pretty small.

Removing what would be contentious elements of the plan is wise in my opinion, as the plan is contentious enough as it is right now. Looking at the furore over the limited CPOs, and the rerouting of traffic from a few roads, adding more CPOs for set back bus stops and others would cause even more political and media headwinds.

Get it built and done with, and then focus on adding the nice-to-haves afterwards, when they won't sink the entire project.

So how easy do you think it will be to get a second cpo for a set back bus stop after bc is delivered, when it could have been done the first time? That’s ludicrous.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 2:23pm

tom1ie wrote: »

What is the frequency on the stillorgan qbc?

The highest in the city.

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 2:23pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think fundamentally the issue is the main bus routes are doing a job that should really be done by a higher capacity rail based system. But we're many years away from the main arterial routes all having a rail service. BusConnects provides an improvement on the current offering but until we have DART expansion, luas to Finglas, metrolink and a new SW-NE metro line, improving the bus corridors is the best that can be done.

Yes and let’s improve them to the best design standards, aka set back bus stops.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 2:28pm

tom1ie wrote: »

So how easy do you think it will be to get a second cpo for a set back bus stop after bc is delivered, when it could have been done the first time? That’s ludicrous.

That is not going to happen at every single stop in my view. It’ll happen where there is space but the main part of the project is delivering segregated lanes wherever possible.

I think you’re expecting more than this project can ever deliver. There’s a finite budget and expecting every stop to be fully recessed would push the CPO costs through the roof. There are other stop locations where there simply isn’t the physical space where buildings are flush with the footpaths.

I’ve never for one minute taken the potential journey time improvements as gospel - they will improve for sure but not to the extent that the NTA are claiming.

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 2:45pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The highest in the city.

Which is?

jd · 14-01-2019 2:45pm

From https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/north-dublin-residents-prepared-to-sacrifice-gardens-for-busconnects-1.3756564

Some residents in north Dublin have said they are prepared to lose part of their front gardens to make way for bus and cycle lanes under the BusConnects project as it is “the lesser of two evils”.

Between 70 and 80 properties on Swords Road in Santry are being told they may be impacted by an alternative plan now being considered by the National Transport Authority (NTA) for the proposed Swords to city centre bus corridor.

Concerns had been raised by local businesses and residents in recent weeks about an aspect of the plan, published in November, which would see one-way traffic passing through Santry in the northbound direction, while southbound traffic would be diverted via Coolock Lane and the Santry bypass.
..
“Looking at it now, losing one metre of the garden compared to a one-way system is really not much of a loss,” he told The Irish Times.

“I work in Sandyford so I know what a bad commute is and I know what a good commute is. If this helps keep things going, I think for the next projected 40 years, then definitely I’d be on board with supporting it.

“Maybe I’m in the minority, but I think little sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. A metre from the garden doesn’t seem too bad.”

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 2:47pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

That is not going to happen at every single stop in my view. It’ll happen where there is space but the main part of the project is delivering segregated lanes wherever possible.

I think you’re expecting more than this project can ever deliver. There’s a finite budget and expecting every stop to be fully recessed would push the CPO costs through the roof. There are other stop locations where there simply isn’t the physical space where buildings are flush with the footpaths.

I’ve never for one minute taken the potential journey time improvements as gospel - they will improve for sure but not to the extent that the NTA are claiming.

I’m not expecting every stop to be set back, but I am expecting the majority to be.
The budget is 2 billion. Not exactly a small amount. We should expect high quality infrastructure for that price.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 2:50pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Which is?

With respect, go and count them yourself. I’m not going to do all of the work for you.

Use the departures tab on www.a-b.ie for say the stop outside Donnybrook Garage which is not recessed and you’ll see the scheduled departures at a given time (say between 07:30 and 09:30).

There’s the 7b, 7d, 39a, 46a, 46e, 145, 116, 118 and 84x all inbound during the morning peak and that’s Dublin Bus alone.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 2:53pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I’m not expecting every stop to be set back, but I am expecting the majority to be.
The budget is 2 billion. Not exactly a small amount. We should expect high quality infrastructure for that price.

You also need to bring people with you.

Regardless of what you might think, there’s a political reality to this.

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 2:55pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

With respect, go and count them yourself. I’m not going to do all of the work for you.

Use the departures tab on www.a-b.ie for say the stop outside Donnybrook Garage which is not recessed and you’ll see the scheduled departures at a given time.

There’s the 7b, 7d, 39a, 46a, 46e, 145, 116, 118 and 84x all inbound during the morning peak and that’s Dublin Bus alone.

You are the one comparing the stillorgan qbc with the known frequency of bc spines at 3 min (Lucan spine). So unless you come up with hard data on frequencies of existing spines I suggest you justify your argument another way.

CatInABox · 14-01-2019 2:56pm

tom1ie wrote: »

So how easy do you think it will be to get a second cpo for a set back bus stop after bc is delivered, when it could have been done the first time? That’s ludicrous.

Legally speaking, about the same.

Politically speaking, probably easier. Right now, most of the CPO's consist of one to two metres, and face opposition from hundreds of houses, but there's no one that's getting truly shafted. Set back bus stops could result in 5 or more metres being taken (and in narrow sections, it's possible that people may even lose their houses). Combine the two into one project, and you've got a much larger battle on your hands.

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 2:59pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Legally speaking, about the same.

Politically speaking, probably easier. Right now, most of the CPO's consist of one to two metres, and face opposition from hundreds of houses, but there's no one that's getting truly shafted. Set back bus stops could result in 5 or more metres being taken (and in narrow sections, it's possible that people may even lose their houses). Combine the two into one project, and you've got a much larger battle on your hands.

Yeah fair enough, but another way of thinking about it is the home owner thinking they’ve already cpoed some of my garden x years ago for bc, now they’re coming back looking for more! They’ve made a balls of it etc etc.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 3:00pm

Bear in mind Tom that BusConnects, as it stands, plans to reduce the number of buses on the spines over the current levels (I personally don’t think that will happen though).

Again I will make the point that buses do manage to overtake one another at bus stops on the existing QBCs. The main problem is being stuck in general traffic or at pinch points.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 3:02pm

tom1ie wrote: »

You are the one comparing the stillorgan qbc with the known frequency of bc spines at 3 min (Lucan spine). So unless you come up with hard data on frequencies of existing spines I suggest you justify your argument another way.

Tom I don’t have to justify my knowledge of the bus network to you or anyone else. My long posting history on the subject alone should tell you that much.

I can tell you that the Stillorgan QBC has the highest peak frequency of any QBC.

If you don’t want to believe me that’s up to you but I’m not in the habit of making things up.

CatInABox · 14-01-2019 3:08pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Yeah fair enough, but another way of thinking about it is the home owner thinking they’ve already cpoed some of my garden x years ago for bc, now they’re coming back looking for more! They’ve made a balls of it etc etc.

Sure, but from the legal perspective, there's no real recourse for the home owner, so long as the NTA has their ducks in order.

From the political perspective, it'll be easier for politicians to ignore* it, as the number affected will be lower, and the CBC project will already have provided significant savings, showing that this kind of project does have a positive affect.

*It's not that they will ignore it, but rather will complain and then slowly drop it. Won't be a massive vote winner for them, and could in fact be a vote loser overall, if a successful CBC project makes people realise that PT improvements actually work.

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 3:15pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Tom I don’t have to justify my knowledge of the bus network to you or anyone else. My long posting history on the subject alone should tell you that much.

I can tell you that the Stillorgan QBC has the highest peak frequency of any QBC.

If you don’t want to believe me that’s up to you but I’m not in the habit of making things up.

I’m not disputing the fact that the stillorgan qbc is the busiest in the country, I’m trying to find out what that frequency is and to compare that to the known 3min frequency of the Lucan spine. If the frequency is 5min compared to the 3min figure on the Lucan spine then bc will make bunching worse with in line stops.

It’s not an attack on you, don’t take it so personal!

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 3:20pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Sure, but from the legal perspective, there's no real recourse for the home owner, so long as the NTA has their ducks in order.

From the political perspective, it'll be easier for politicians to ignore* it, as the number affected will be lower, and the CBC project will already have provided significant savings, showing that this kind of project does have a positive affect.

*It's not that they will ignore it, but rather will complain and then slowly drop it. Won't be a massive vote winner for them, and could in fact be a vote loser overall, if a successful CBC project makes people realise that PT improvements actually work.

Yes but if the spines are not working well because of in line bus stops, the further cpo’s for set back bus stops will be seen as “another project that the nta messed up and didn’t design correctly in the first place”

CatInABox · 14-01-2019 3:28pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but if the spines are not working well because of in line bus stops, the further cpo’s for set back bus stops will be seen as “another project that the nta messed up and didn’t design correctly in the first place”

Except that spines with in line bus stops will still deliver significant improvements on what is currently there. Sure, they could be better with set back bus stops, but it'll still be far better than what people are currently experiencing.

More likely, it'll be seen as "the CBC was a successful project, and these new CPOs will improve things further"

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 3:31pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I’m not disputing the fact that the stillorgan qbc is the busiest in the country, I’m trying to find out what that frequency is and to compare that to the known 3min frequency of the Lucan spine. If the frequency is 5min compared to the 3min figure on the Lucan spine then bc will make bunching worse with in line stops.

It’s not an attack on you, don’t take it so personal!

Well quite frankly that is how it came across - I did actually provide you with the tool to do just that for any stop in the city. Using the departures tab on the NTA Journey Planner app is even easier. You can do direct comparisons.

I have a very good working knowledge of the service levels across the city bus network and that’s how I could make that statement without counting them all up.

But just for you, I have. There’s currently 52 buses serving stop 772 at Donnybrook Garage between 08:05 and 09:05.

The Lucan QBC is split in two for most of the route also.

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 3:38pm

Incidentally any of the existing frequencies listed in BusConnects network redesign are now completely out of date due to the ongoing rollout of additional departures across the Dublin Bus and Go Ahead networks.

tom1ie · 14-01-2019 3:48pm

Fair play lx, ya know your ****!

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 4:04pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Fair play lx, ya know your ****!

Thanks but anyone could do that exercise in all honesty.

My point stands though. The key part of the project is segregating buses from general traffic.

Most buses stop at every stop along the QBCs during the peak as it is so recessed bays aren’t the be all and end all. Several existing ones are badly designed in any case and are useless. Look at the one in Rathmines at the swimming pool - it’s too small for the volume of buses and it is too short to allow a bus safely enter, line up flush with the kerb, stop and pull out.

As I said to my mind it is getting past general traffic that is key.

The revised proposal in Santry is I think a good compromise that will facilitate local access and bus traffic. Going any further in and the bus stops would take up most of the front gardens which isn’t great for residents being honest. The NTA need to bring the residents with them on this.

cgcsb · 14-01-2019 5:00pm

Have seen proposals for all remaining corridors. Mostly it's as you'd expect, I'll just outline a few interesting points:

Ballymun-City Centre:

Starting from FR Mathew Bridge heading north you've bus lane in both directions, no separete cycling lanes as far as May's lane. Between there and King St junction, entry is controlled by bus priority signal. Standard southbound cycling lane and standard north bound bus lane on this stretch.

Left turn from Upper Church St onto King st banned. This will impede the Brunswick st/King st function as an orbital route for cars, how this will be fixed is not yet known. Coleraine st Cosntitution Hill and the Royal Canal Bank will be used as a quiteway for bikes. Bus lane will be continuous except for a short stretch just north of Monck place and the NCR junction, where it will be shared with left turning cars, entry to this stretch controlled by bus priority signal

2 way bus lanes are maintained north of this. The Royal Canal quietway for bikes rejoins the main route at the Westmoreland Bridge.
Bizzarly at this point, there is no proposed bus stops at the proposed Whitworth road station.

From Whitworth road to Botanic Road/Prospect Way there is a south bound bike lane and bus lane but northbound cyclists can sing. The start of the Finglas Rd will consist of a northbound Bike lane, bus lane and general traffic, a right turning bus lane and a right turning general traffic.

North of Botanic/Prospect there's a north bound bus lane and a short stretch of south bound bus lane and cycle lane. South bound buses will share with cars for a stretch, controlled by signaling.

St Mobhi Road get's contentious. Heavy CPO activity here. Bus and cycle lanes in both directions here and south bound only cars. This goes as far as Griffith Avenue and from there you have bus and bike lanes as standard on the wide ballymun rd.

monument · 14-01-2019 5:53pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but if the spines are not working well because of in line bus stops, the further cpo’s for set back bus stops will be seen as “another project that the nta messed up and didn’t design correctly in the first place”

I’ve read all or most of your posts and the replies by others, but I still don’t know what your obsession is with having set back bus stops — unless there is a massive amount of space (ie N11 etc) these rarely work well in terms of buses meeting the kerbs and the space in most cases would be better used for bus stop bypasses / island bus stops, which take up less space to get right.

cgcsb · 14-01-2019 6:21pm

Bunching is only an issue in a small number of locations at present where different bus routes converge. I expect this will be reduced by the merging of bus routes into spines with a common time table. I don't think it's a massive issue outside central Dublin

LXFlyer · 14-01-2019 6:40pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Bunching is only an issue in a small number of locations at present where different bus routes converge. I expect this will be reduced by the merging of bus routes into spines with a common time table. I don't think it's a massive issue outside central Dublin

While there are some integrated timetables, bunching does happen a lot more than your post suggests, and frankly that won’t change. Jarrett Walker recognised that bunching will still happen. Not necessarily from poor scheduling, but rather a fact of life in the sense that they still have to interact with passengers and traffic!

Actually delivering buses onto the spines on schedule from routes that don’t have priority isn’t going to be that easy to do.

Also the number of buses serving the city centre has increased in the last twelve months and I’m totally unconvinced that you can reduce them as significantly as BusConnects suggests. Passenger numbers are consistently rising.

The original plan cut capacity from many areas and I just don’t think that is sustainable anymore.

By all means the orbitals need increasing (as Go Ahead are doing) but I think that the notion of removing significant capacity from radial routes to deliver that is going to be canned somewhat.

jd · 15-01-2019 1:35pm

Received this a short while ago

Please note that there will be an extension to the period of consultation for the Swords to City Centre Core Bus Corridor. The deadline for submissions for this corridor is now Friday 1st March 2019.

CatInABox · 15-01-2019 4:12pm

jd wrote: »

Received this a short while ago

It's probably the change to the Santry section that's caused the delay, not much point in continuing with the old consultation if it was already out of date.

alentejo · 17-01-2019 10:27am

I think in 20 years plus commuting either by bike, bus or driving, the traffic on the Terenure-Rathgar-Rathmines route was the worst I have ever seen it.

What ever Busconnects delivers, it will need to ban cars on certain sections of this route or else it will not work!

cgcsb · 17-01-2019 2:14pm

There's been a massive climbdown at the NTA regarding Rathmines. The convoluted detour for cyclists is gone and instead Rathmines village will have one way outound traffic and 2 way bus and cycle lanes. Aditionally Richmond St is to be a bus gate. Completely removing this as a commuter route for cars.

I for one welcome this and predict a drastic reduction in car commuting as a result.

tom1ie · 17-01-2019 3:53pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There's been a massive climbdown at the NTA regarding Rathmines. The convoluted detour fohr cyclists is gone and instead RAthmines village will have one way outound traffic and 2 way bus and cycle lanes. Aditionally Richmond St is to be a bus gate. Completely removing this as a commuter route for cars.

I for one welcome this and predict a drastic reduction in car commuting as a result.

Very good. Is the detailed drawing/map up on the bc website?

cgcsb · 17-01-2019 4:10pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Very good. Is the detailed drawing/map up on the bc website?

It will be closer to the end of the month.

CatInABox · 17-01-2019 4:13pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There's been a massive climbdown at the NTA regarding Rathmines. The convoluted detour for cyclists is gone and instead RAthmines village will have one way outound traffic and 2 way bus and cycle lanes. Aditionally Richmond St is to be a bus gate. Completely removing this as a commuter route for cars.

I mean, this is a climbdown on the cycling/bus side, but it's going to be a massive uphill struggle on the car commuter side. Just look at the Santry opposition for example.

I suppose the difference is that Santry can be sorted without too much hassle for the NTA and their bus corridors, there really doesn't seem to be any other option in that area.

cgcsb · 17-01-2019 4:45pm

I know what you mean but the battle is different. In Santry it's the 'concerned resident' Helen Lovejoy Crowd, and the conflicting interests is motorists vs local owners of gardens. I'm also not convinced that the NTA will go with the 2 way Santry option. In Rathmines it's concerned motorists vs people who cycle. Much less sympathy there.

blanch152 · 17-01-2019 11:22pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Bunching is only an issue in a small number of locations at present where different bus routes converge. I expect this will be reduced by the merging of bus routes into spines with a common time table. I don't think it's a massive issue outside central Dublin

Bunching happens in Dublin 15, especially when the Blanchardstown Centre is busy.

monument · 18-01-2019 10:34pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Bunching happens in Dublin 15, especially when the Blanchardstown Centre is busy.

Blanch is to have a load of bus bays etc.

The design is not right yet, but what it will get is likely far better than what it has now.

Stephen15 · 18-01-2019 11:13pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

They’re talking about *scheduling* buses to be more evenly spaced.

That doesn’t mean that will be what actually happens on the ground, and Jarrett Walker admitted that publicly, namely that bunching will still happen.

Given that some routes (from the first draft) would be joining the spines from roads with little or no priority measures, that’s going to be difficult to avoid.

What needs to be done is the introduction of headways. If two buses are bunched or a controller sees there's a risk of buses bunching he or she should inform one of the drivers to wait at the stop 5-10 mins before continuing on the journey in order to keep a headway. Along with bus priority at lights and proper enforce,ment of bus lanes.

There's also incidents where two high frequency bus routes leave the terminus at the same time and I have seen this with my own eyes as presumably one bus is on time and another is late. If a route is meant to run every 10 mins then the priority should be to keep the bus at a 10 minute headway not keep it running its scheduled departures which is something that seems logical on paper but not in reality.

RayCun · 19-01-2019 9:34am

Yeah, tell a driver to stop for ten minutes at a stop for no reason other than to let the bus ahead get further ahead.
The passengers would love that.

CatInABox · 19-01-2019 10:02am

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, tell a driver to stop for ten minutes at a stop for no reason other than to let the bus ahead get further ahead.
The passengers would love that.

I've been on several buses in London that have done something similar. In some cases, there's a wait of a few minutes at a bus stop, and in other cases, the bus waited for a little bit at several bus stops in a row.

There's usually a pre-recorded announcement over the speakers at the time. No one really complains, not really. Might say something to the person sitting next to them, but that's all.

sharper · 19-01-2019 10:58am

My experience with Dublin Bus bunching is that they're usually bunched up around the time of the later bus and not the earlier one so if you ask one to stop you'll be increasing the delay. I would guess this is because bunching is typically caused by traffic bottlenecks and not delays at the stops.

For example at peak times I've seen 3 25as coming along together down the quays. That's a 10 minute frequency and about 8 stops from departure so I don't believe they're being held up for that long at the stops.

I've also been on buses which pulled over and everyone had to get on the next one coming so the bus could go off and do something else, it's very disruptive and annoying.

Busconnects will also complicate this logic a lot. You have a high frequency spine that's composed of a number of subroutes. If three "A" buses are bunched up they're all going to different places and people are relying on each of them to show up at the interconnect to complete their journey.

Stephen15 · 19-01-2019 2:04pm

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, tell a driver to stop for ten minutes at a stop for no reason other than to let the bus ahead get further ahead.
The passengers would love that.

Ideally if there was space on the bus in front the driver could issue a transfer voucher like in London and let the passengers on the bus move on to the bus in front as long they're not going to make that bus full. Go-Ahead do it as part of their contract obligations with the NTA.

I think passengers would rather it than having to wait over 20 mins for a bus that's supposed to run at a frequency of every 10 mins.

Dats me · 19-01-2019 2:23pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/north-dublin-residents-prepared-to-sacrifice-gardens-for-busconnects-1.3756564

Don't think this was posted here before, but nice to see positive coverage and locals supporting the project!

Marcusm · 20-01-2019 9:11pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I know what you mean but the battle is different. In Santry it's the 'concerned resident' Helen Lovejoy Crowd, and the conflicting interests is motorists vs local owners of gardens. I'm also not convinced that the NTA will go with the 2 way Santry option. In Rathmines it's concerned motorists vs people who cycle. Much less sympathy there.

It’s also businesses (including the ever expanding Swan Centre) who will be concerned as to loss of business.

cgcsb · 21-01-2019 10:41am

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s also businesses (including the ever expanding Swan Centre) who will be concerned as to loss of business.

Given the cost of Parking in the Swan, it seems that they have the power to attract more car journeys if they wish.

AndrewJRenko · 21-01-2019 10:55pm

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s also businesses (including the ever expanding Swan Centre) who will be concerned as to loss of business.

Presumably they haven't read the considerable international evidence showing how retailers tend to do much better when cars are removed or reduced and people get to enjoy spending time in a place, instead of living in a car park.

cgcsb · 23-01-2019 12:20pm

Most of the rest of the proposed corridors are available on the website:

Rathfarnham bellow: https://busconnects.ie/media/1453/12-busconnects-cbc-rathfarnham-to-city-centre-040119-fa.pdf

They've gone with presenting the convoluted detour in Rathmines for bikes as a 'b' option.

CatInABox · 23-01-2019 12:25pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Most of the rest of the proposed corridors are available on the website:

Rathfarnham bellow: https://busconnects.ie/media/1453/12-busconnects-cbc-rathfarnham-to-city-centre-040119-fa.pdf

They've gone with presenting the convoluted detour in Rathmines for bikes as a 'b' option.

The rest of them are available here.

I'll have a look through them now.

cgcsb · 23-01-2019 1:14pm

I like the busgate at James's hospital. An innovative solution. Also the busgate on Richmond St is good. Also consider the Old Cabra Raod/Prussia st car restrictions and the arterial driving routes are greatly reduced, a reduction in car commuting is definitely on the cards.

Grassey · 23-01-2019 1:25pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Rathfarnham bellow:

Detour off the main route through narrow shared alley to Brookvale from Rathfarnham Village to a quirky 2 lane cycle lane to the pedestrian lights, rather than continue the 500m directly downhill in the buslane... yeah... that won't work

donvito99 · 23-01-2019 7:39pm

Grassey wrote: »

Detour off the main route through narrow shared alley to Brookvale from Rathfarnham Village to a quirky 2 lane cycle lane to the pedestrian lights, rather than continue the 500m directly downhill in the buslane... yeah... that won't work

My favourite is the inbound cycle lane which ends in a cliff-edge type fashion at the top of Templeogue Rd, expecting you to (presumably dismount) and cross into what eventually becomes Bushy Park, before ending again about 200 metres later and demanding that you to cross back over to the inbound side of Templeogue Rd...

Bus connects is much hyped in terms of cycling infrastructure but it looks like the same old balls in parts - and will these lanes even be policed?

Dublin - BusConnects

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