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Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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Comments

  • #1052
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    hcf500 wrote: »
    When someone transitions to a woman, they become a women and take part in womens sports! It just means that there is new competition that may be better that you! No point throwing a tantrum, put some of that energy and hatred into better training!

    Look that's totally ridiculous. Male to female trans people competing in female sports is like a farmer taking a sheep to market and insisting it's a cow to get a better price. He can believe what he likes, nobody minds but the minute he starts looking for unfair advantage, other people has to fall back on facts. Same unfair advantage in sports which has to be stopped in it's tracks.


  • #1053
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Male to female trans people competing in female sports is like a farmer taking a sheep to market and insisting it's a cow to get a better price.

    It would be more like taking a cow to the mart and insisting it is a sheep to get a better price! Pound for pound sheeps are more valuable. Sorry, Carry on!


  • #1054
    crybaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 874 ✭✭✭crybaby


    Zorya wrote: »
    The gender threads will continue Princess because it is a major human rights issue in the present time. The erasure of women and especially lesbians is ongoing so the discussions should continue.

    The issue is not about mere pronouns, that is completely reductive. You would have to read the source material to see its scope. It is about bodily integrity, safe spaces, fairness in sports, among other important issues. No one gives a continental damn about mere pronouns.

    The erasure of women, that's a new one.


  • #1055
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Oh look, the science denier who doesn't like scientists having opinions based on science.
    A person who medically transitions has gone through extensive counselling, psychology, psychiatry and endocrinologists on board. This is Ireland, not the USA with your denial opinions based on fantasy or religious conservatism politik.
    I.

    100 Irish children have been treated at Tavistock GIDS in the past 3 years.

    The Governor of the board of Tavistock resigned about 2 months ago citing the fast tracking of treatment of children with dysphoria and bullying from activists and children having been coached on what to say at meetings. Several other senior medical personnel have also resigned of late. Staff have described children getting hormones after one visit. A leaked report described the clinic as not fit for purpose. The UK government has launched enquiries into treatment of children. The Swedish government has suspended affirmation treatments of children as medical personnel have also complained there of fast tracking and limited follow up. An enquiry has been started.


  • #1056
    How Soon Is Now
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,136 ✭✭✭✭How Soon Is Now


    In all the years I've been on here I've come across a lot of self proclaimed "champions" of lgbt rights!

    Jesus talk about self riotous pretentious people who don't listen to any other opinions other then the ones they support.

    There the very same ones who then wonder why there's hostility towards certain aspects of the lgbt community on here! Especially certain trans issues.

    I just don't understand what there aiming to achieve by acting the way they do!


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  • #1057
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    Here it is from the horses' mouth:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxVmSGTgNxI


    Interestingly they all seemed to go through the phase at the age (15-19) when kids join a teenage tribe/youth culture movement like goth or rocker before growing out of it in early adulthood. A youtube search for "detransitioning" brings up hundreds of similar stories.


  • #1058
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    Candamir wrote: »
    If my son transitioned to female and competed in girls sports with the full benefit of his male body and male hormones I would consider that unfair and akin to cheating. I would not support him/her.
    klaaaz wrote: »

    Neither would I.

    I’m glad to hear that Klaaaz.
    My opinion on trans women competing in women’s sports (which we’ve discussed in the other thread) is really an extension of this.
    While the advantage for trans woman with artificially lowered testosterone levels is less, I still feel it’s too great an advantage to be fair. Seeing trans women (who were nowhere near the top of their game as men) dominating women’s sports bears this out.


  • #1059
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    100 Irish children have been treated at Tavistock GIDS in the past 3 years.

    The Governor of the board of Tavistock resigned about 2 months ago citing the fast tracking of treatment of children with dysphoria and bullying from activists and children having been coached on what to say at meetings. Several other senior medical personnel have also resigned of late. Staff have described children getting hormones after one visit. A leaked report described the clinic as not fit for purpose. The UK government has launched enquiries into treatment of children. The Swedish government has suspended affirmation treatments of children as medical personnel have also complained there of fast tracking and limited follow up. An enquiry has been started.

    So you speak up for One eyed Jack then?

    Only 12 people under 18(10 of which were female at birth) out of 900,000 plus pupils under 18 have obtained gender recognition certs in this country(Ireland for you). (source PrimeTime)

    It's quite amazing that you quote the welfare of children immediately when ignoring adults decisions from which my post was aimed at and which the vast majority of transitions involve in Ireland(assuming you actually live here)

    Where have been your posts on children who are in the care of Tusla, in dodgy foster homes, 230,000 growing up in poverty in Ireland (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/social-justice-ireland-one-in-five-irish-children-living-in-poverty-917712.html ) but yet you have solely concentrated on one youngfella in drag in a far away country which has nothing to do with us or the LGBT community in Ireland. But hey, 230,000 kids in this country struggling to feed themselves is not your priority.


  • #1060
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    I’m glad to hear that Klaaaz.
    My opinion on trans women competing in women’s sports (which we’ve discussed in the other thread) is really an extension of this.
    While the advantage for trans woman with artificially lowered testosterone levels is less, I still feel it’s too great an advantage to be fair. Seeing trans women (who were nowhere near the top of their game as men) dominating women’s sports bears this out.

    Hi Candamir, since I joined boards I have always been against self-ID trans women competing in women's sports. It's nothing new, you can search my past posts if you like. And yes, i'm against what is happening in far away America(was it Connecticut in some high school?) having those two runners winning races in sprints, it's not right as I recognise that the bodies of both men's and women's are different, self-ID runners have zero hormonal interruption and that is wrong for them to compete in women's races.

    The IAAF and the Olympics overseers also ban it(zero hormonal interruption), so whatever is going on in that US state is totally wrong and I strongly disagree with it.


  • #1061
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Oh look, the science denier who doesn't like scientists having opinions based on science.


    “Opinions based on science”, what does that even mean? What opinions? Based upon what science?

    An opinion that a person can change their sex has no scientific foundation, and an opinion that a person can choose what gender they are is a subjective belief, based entirely upon how they perceive themselves in in the society in which they live.

    A person who medically transitions has gone through extensive counselling, psychology, psychiatry and endocrinologists on board. This is Ireland, not the USA with your denial opinions based on fantasy or religious conservatism politik.


    Whether it’s Ireland or the USA is irrelevant with regard to the standards of care and the treatments provided to people who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and the increasing number of people whom you continue to ignore who identify themselves as transgender, while not experiencing gender dysphoria and having no wish to undergo medical or surgical treatments. Remember that self-ID we discussed already? All that’s required for their preferred gender identity to be acknowledged in Irish law is a certificate acknowledging their new identity.

    It is none of your business as an 'anonymous' poster on boards whether a person transitions which is good for their mental health and frankly, your and other's input on this matter can be seriously damaging to a transgender person, hence I will never invite my transgender friends to boards.


    Contrary to your belief, it absolutely is my business because Irish law, public health and education policies applies equally to me as it does to you, your friends and to everyone in this country. The issues with regard to transgender politics are greater than you and your besties deciding for yourselves that you now wish to be perceived in a way that pleases you. It certainly is my business with regard to Irish law and public health and education policies, and I can understand how it is most certainly damaging to people who disagree with my opinions to have to acknowledge the fact that people are not obligated to agree with how they wish themselves to be perceived. That’s where their mental health issues stem from - not from the fact that other people don’t accept them, but from the fact that they can’t accept themselves.

    I don’t know why you’d think I care that you’ll never invite your besties to Boards, or what that’s about. Why would I care when I don’t care for people regardless of their gender who attempt to gaslight people into accepting something which they know is simply a falsehood?


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  • #1062
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    klaaaz wrote: »
    i'm against what is happening in far away America(was it Connecticut in some high school?)


    This idea of yours that what happens in ''far away'' America or even the UK is irrelevant here does not hold up. It's not another planet. Planes nd ideas travel easily.
    I mentioned an anti-terf exhibition in San Francisco. Down the road is Los Angeles. There one finds Dr Johanna Olson, who is running one of the largest child clinics re gender dysphoria in the US. She got funding in 2017 to give testosterone to girls and estrogen to boys from 8 years old. She prescribes removal of healthy breasts from 12 and 13 year old girls.
    She gave public lectures and department seminars in Bristol University on her chosen topic in April of this year. Bristol is 200 miles away from Dublin. Does it have to happen on your back garden before it is relevant to us?


  • #1063
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    “Opinions based on science”, what does that even mean? What opinions? Based upon what science?

    If you have been following this thread and not falling asleep, you denied scientists having scientific opinions and blamed politics in your tin foil hat conspiracy.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    An opinion that a person can change their sex has no scientific foundation, and an opinion that a person can choose what gender they are is a subjective belief, based entirely upon how they perceive themselves in in the society in which they live.

    Yes it has, we discussed this extensively already. It's ok for you to deny science.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Whether it’s Ireland or the USA is irrelevant with regard to the standards of care and the treatments provided to people who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and the increasing number of people whom you continue to ignore who identify themselves as transgender, while not experiencing gender dysphoria and having no wish to undergo medical or surgical treatments. Remember that self-ID we discussed already? All that’s required for their preferred gender identity to be acknowledged in Irish law is a certificate acknowledging their new identity.

    This is Ireland, welcome aboard. It has zero nadda nothing to do with you about a person having or not having gender dysphoria, you're not a part of the transgender treatment process here nor are you the person experiencing gender dysphoria. Your religious nonsense does not apply, yes I've read some of your many posts in the Atheism(challenging atheism rather than supportive) and Christianity forum, you've been found out where your bias lies.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Contrary to your belief, it absolutely is my business because Irish law, public health and education policies applies equally to me as it does to you, your friends and to everyone in this country. The issues with regard to transgender politics are greater than you and your besties deciding for yourselves that you now wish to be perceived in a way that pleases you. It certainly is my business with regard to Irish law and public health and education policies, and I can understand how it is most certainly damaging to people who disagree with my opinions to have to acknowledge the fact that people are not obligated to agree with how they wish themselves to be perceived. That’s where their mental health issues stem from - not from the fact that other people don’t accept them, but from the fact that they can’t accept themselves.

    You'd have to explain how on earth in law, health and education how a person transitions affects you assuming you live here in Ireland??
    You not accepting transgender people are part of the problem detrimental to their mental health, you are not an expert and have zero right to judge a person experiencing gender dysphoria so cut out your nonsense.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I don’t know why you’d think I care that you’ll never invite your besties to Boards, or what that’s about. Why would I care when I don’t care for people regardless of their gender who attempt to gaslight people into accepting something which they know is simply a falsehood?

    Oh they and others in the LGBT community will never at my best trying see the harmful judgemental sh1te that you and others say about their lives, thankfully boards is a tiny subset of the Irish population with less than an 1000 users in AH.


  • #1064
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Feisar


    hcf500 wrote: »
    When someone transitions to a woman, they become a women and take part in womens sports! It just means that there is new competition that may be better that you! No point throwing a tantrum, put some of that energy and hatred into better training!

    Do you have long hair and live on top of a pencil?

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #1065
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    This idea of yours that what happens in ''far away'' America or even the UK is irrelevant here does not hold up. It's not another planet. Planes nd ideas travel easily.
    I mentioned an anti-terf exhibition in San Francisco. Down the road is Los Angeles. There one finds Dr Johanna Olson, who is running one of the largest child clinics re gender dysphoria in the US. She got funding in 2017 to give testosterone to girls and estrogen to boys from 8 years old. She prescribes removal of healthy breasts from 12 and 13 year old girls.
    She gave public lectures and department seminars in Bristol University on her chosen topic in April of this year. Bristol is 200 miles away from Dublin. Does it have to happen on your back garden before it is relevant to us?

    So you totally ignore my reply to you which really means you don't care about children in this country. Yes America is very far away with 60 plus times the population of us. Bristol is the UK and that person gave a lecture, that person does not set policy in the NHS in the UK.

    Where is your care for the 230,000 Irish kids living in poverty? Would you post about the frequent Irish children who go missing every few weeks? No you have not.
    Oh but a child in drag in a far away foreign country is more important to you, call 1.800.422.4453 (USA number) for USA child protection services, I had to google that as we are not in the frigging USA unless they invade us upon finding lots of oil here.


  • #1066
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    If you have been following this thread and not falling asleep, you denied scientists having scientific opinions and blamed politics in your tin foil hat conspiracy.

    Yes it has, we discussed this extensively already. It's ok for you to deny science.


    It’s quite clear from how you talk about it that you’re pretending you don’t understand what science actually is, nor it’s function.

    This is Ireland, welcome aboard. It has zero nadda nothing to do with you about a person having or not having gender dysphoria, you're not a part of the transgender treatment process here nor are you the person experiencing gender dysphoria. Your religious nonsense does not apply, yes I've read some of your many posts in the Atheism(challenging atheism rather than supportive) and Christianity forum, you've been found out where your bias lies.


    I’ve already explained to you how it does apply, and because this is indeed Ireland and we’re not confined to arguing within the confined structures of your beliefs, my religious nonsense applies and is given equal recognition in law as much as your nonsense which is based upon your beliefs.

    You’re also doing that thing again where you imagine that a condition like gender dysphoria gives a shìte about a person’s beliefs, whether they be religious, non-religious, atheist, whatever. You’re also trying the divide and conquer strategy again where you imagine that people can’t share a common interest regardless of their scientific, political, social or religious beliefs.

    Your belief that they have to be contradictory is based entirely upon your own, well, quite frankly- ignorance. The existence of people who are a combination of many or all of these identities serves as empirical evidence that you are simply wrong -


    I'm Proud To Be a Transgender Catholic

    You'd have to explain how on earth in law, health and education how a person transitions affects you assuming you live here in Ireland??
    You not accepting transgender people are part of the problem detrimental to their mental health, you are not an expert and have zero right to judge a person experiencing gender dysphoria so cut out your nonsense.


    I’ve already explained to you that these laws and policies apply to everyone in Irish society regardless of whether they themselves are transgender or not. For example the Gender Recognition Act allows for children to be subjected to treatment for gender dysphoria without requiring parental consent if it is determined that it is in the best interests of the child to go ahead with treatment without seeking parental consent. If my child were to identify themselves as transgender in the morning, there is the potential there for them to be put on the path to being subjected to psychological and psychiatric treatment and medical and surgical treatments without my consent.

    If you’re going to argue that a person choosing to be regarded in law as their preferred gender has no effect on me, then the opposite of that is also true - the fact that I do not share their belief that a person can change their sex, has no effect on them! Which is it, or do you want it both ways? It’s your own nonsense is faulty here in suggesting I have no right to judge a person experiencing gender dysphoria - you simply don’t have the authority to make that determination.

    As it turns out, I absolutely do, according to Irish and International Human Rights Law, I do have the right to judge a person experiencing gender dysphoria. You may want to take a refresher course in Human Rights Law before you imagine you have any authority to tell me what rights I do and do not have. Pay particular attention to the laws regarding freedom of expression and so on, any laws related to beliefs and thoughts. I still have those, and there’s not a whole lot you’re ever going to be able to do about that, much as you may want to.

    Oh they and others in the LGBT community will never at my best trying see the harmful judgemental sh1te that you and others say about their lives, thankfully boards is a tiny subset of the Irish population with less than an 1000 users in AH.


    Ehh... good for them? The people who agree with you at least, the people who don’t, it’s quite obvious you have no qualms about throwing them under the bus.


  • #1067
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I’ve already explained to you how it does apply, and because this is indeed Ireland and we’re not confined to arguing within the confined structures of your beliefs, my religious nonsense applies and is given equal recognition in law as much as your nonsense which is based upon your beliefs.

    Religious nonsense does not apply in the treatment of gender dysphoria. There is ZERO religious interference in the Irish pathway for a medical or even non-medical transition. You wish it be but we have moved on from religious interference in peoples lives a long time ago. Go join the religious monks if it suits you.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You’re also doing that thing again where you imagine that a condition like gender dysphoria gives a shìte about a person’s beliefs, whether they be religious, non-religious, atheist, whatever. You’re also trying the divide and conquer strategy again where you imagine that people can’t share a common interest regardless of their scientific, political, social or religious beliefs.

    Your belief that they have to be contradictory is based entirely upon your own, well, quite frankly- ignorance. The existence of people who are a combination of many or all of these identities serves as empirical evidence that you are simply wrong -
    I'm Proud To Be a Transgender Catholic
    That link is behind a wall, surprise surprise from the transgender and science deniers. The Catholic church are no fans of transgender people, a certain recent pope compared transgender people to a nuclear bomb. A person being transgender, Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual has nothing to do with your religious beliefs. Don't try and convert them as it has ZERO none of your business in their private lives.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I’ve already explained to you that these laws and policies apply to everyone in Irish society regardless of whether they themselves are transgender or not. For example the Gender Recognition Act allows for children to be subjected to treatment for gender dysphoria without requiring parental consent if it is determined that it is in the best interests of the child to go ahead with treatment without seeking parental consent. If my child were to identify themselves as transgender in the morning, there is the potential there for them to be put on the path to being subjected to psychological and psychiatric treatment and medical and surgical treatments without my consent.

    If you’re going to argue that a person choosing to be regarded in law as their preferred gender has no effect on me, then the opposite of that is also true - the fact that I do not share their belief that a person can change their sex, has no effect on them! Which is it, or do you want it both ways? It’s your own nonsense is faulty here in suggesting I have no right to judge a person experiencing gender dysphoria - you simply don’t have the authority to make that determination.

    That Act refers to children between the ages of 16 and 18 and they need parental consent to change gender.

    It has ZERO none of your business what a person aged 18 and over does in their private life, try stop being judgemental. If others were being judgemental on you, you won't like it.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    As it turns out, I absolutely do, according to Irish and International Human Rights Law, I do have the right to judge a person experiencing gender dysphoria. You may want to take a refresher course in Human Rights Law before you imagine you have any authority to tell me what rights I do and do not have. Pay particular attention to the laws regarding freedom of expression and so on, any laws related to beliefs and thoughts. I still have those, and there’s not a whole lot you’re ever going to be able to do about that, much as you may want to.

    Go on, you as a private citizen allegedly of Ireland, what gives you the right to judge others?
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Ehh... good for them? The people who agree with you at least, the people who don’t, it’s quite obvious you have no qualms about throwing them under the bus.

    I've actually joined my LGBT friends in Pride a few times unlike you stuck in some remote apartment block somewhere(your description), when I see a loo-la holding up that sign "thou shall be judged" or some crap like that, i'll tell them that is Jack from some online site, I will not say boards in order to protect them from....loo-la's.


  • #1068
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Religious nonsense does not apply in the treatment of gender dysphoria. There is ZERO religious interference in the Irish pathway for a medical or even non-medical transition. You wish it be but we have moved on from religious interference in peoples lives a long time ago. Go join the religious monks if it suits you.


    You’re either misguided, or purposely pretending to be ignorant of how people experiencing gender dysphoria are treated. All of their circumstances are looked at from the perspective of family, lifestyle, psychological and social factors, including whether you’re aware of it or not, their religion and the influence of their beliefs upon their perceptions and perspectives.

    That link is behind a wall, surprise surprise from the transgender and science deniers. The Catholic church are no fans of transgender people, a certain recent pope compared transgender people to a nuclear bomb. A person being transgender, Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual has nothing to do with your religious beliefs. Don't try and convert them as it has ZERO none of your business in their private lives.


    And again you’re just wrong, in so many ways. I’ll be brief though - the link isn’t behind a paywall, that’s cookie consent. The Catholic Church takes no position one way or the other with regard to people solely on the basis that they are transgender. A person’s perceptions and perspectives with regard to how they perceive themselves can be influenced by their religious beliefs, as I’ve already demonstrated to you. We’ve already cleared up the fact that you don’t speak on behalf of anyone but yourself.

    And finally- I’m not the person is trying to convert anyone to their beliefs. YOU brought up what you imagine are my religious beliefs in this conversation. I didn’t. You brought them up as part of your attempts to divide and distract people from your own beliefs. You did the same yesterday when you tried to pit myself and Zorya against each other. It didn’t work then, it’s not going to work now, so if you’re now arguing that my religious beliefs are irrelevant, then you shouldn’t have brought them up in the first place.

    That Act refers to children between the ages of 16 and 18 and they need parental consent to change gender.

    It has ZERO none of your business what a person aged 18 and over does in their private life, try stop being judgemental. If others were being judgemental on you, you won't like it.


    You’re being judgemental as you like throughout this thread, bit rich for you to be telling others not to be judgemental when throughput the vast majority of your posts you’re demonstrating just how judgemental you are yourself. I have no issue with being judged by other people, you certainly aren’t the first to do it :pac:

    Go on, you as a private citizen allegedly of Ireland, what gives you the right to judge others?


    I told you already - freedom of expression and freedom of conscience. They’re the same rights that permit you the freedom to express yourself as your preferred gender, and protect my right to disagree with you.

    I've actually joined my LGBT friends in Pride a few times unlike you stuck in some remote apartment block somewhere(your description), when I see a loo-la holding up that sign "thou shall be judged" or some crap like that, i'll tell them that is Jack from some online site, I will not say boards in order to protect them from....loo-la's.


    Klaaaz I was involved in organising Pride parades before your arse was as big as a shirt button. I stopped because I didn’t care much for their politics any more.


  • #1069
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Hi Candamir, since I joined boards I have always been against self-ID trans women competing in women's sports. It's nothing new, you can search my past posts if you like. And yes, i'm against what is happening in far away America(was it Connecticut in some high school?) having those two runners winning races in sprints, it's not right as I recognise that the bodies of both men's and women's are different, self-ID runners have zero hormonal interruption and that is wrong for them to compete in women's races.

    The IAAF and the Olympics overseers also ban it(zero hormonal interruption), so whatever is going on in that US state is totally wrong and I strongly disagree with it.

    It’s the entire state of Connecticut, and I believe it’s not the only one. I’m not sure there’s any reason it couldn’t happen here, so it is a worry.

    There’s a vocal minority who believe that transgender women should be able to compete with no hormonal suppression - Rachael McKinnion (a world masters cycling champion). She argues that endogenous testosterone confers no advantage to transgender women athletes, and she accuses anyone who disagrees with her, such as Martina Navratilova, of being transphobic. (She called Navratilova an ‘absolute transphone’ and she was subsequently booted off Athlete Ally)
    I wish that the majority in the transgender community would speak up and not allow her be the de facto spokesperson.


  • #1070
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You’re either misguided, or purposely pretending to be ignorant of how people experiencing gender dysphoria are treated. All of their circumstances are looked at from the perspective of family, lifestyle, psychological and social factors, including whether you’re aware of it or not, their religion and the influence of their beliefs upon their perceptions and perspectives.

    Oh I do know how it's treated, no need for a lecture from yourself. Religion is often cited as a damaging aspect for when a person is experiencing gender dysphoria, family members who would never accept a trans son or daughter use religion as an excuse to never accept a transgender member of their family, that's how your beloved religion is damaging.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    And again you’re just wrong, in so many ways. I’ll be brief though - the link isn’t behind a paywall, that’s cookie consent. The Catholic Church takes no position one way or the other with regard to people solely on the basis that they are transgender. A person’s perceptions and perspectives with regard to how they perceive themselves can be influenced by their religious beliefs, as I’ve already demonstrated to you. We’ve already cleared up the fact that you don’t speak on behalf of anyone but yourself.

    And finally- I’m not the person is trying to convert anyone to their beliefs. YOU brought up what you imagine are my religious beliefs in this conversation. I didn’t. You brought them up as part of your attempts to divide and distract people from your own beliefs. You did the same yesterday when you tried to pit myself and Zorya against each other. It didn’t work then, it’s not going to work now, so if you’re now arguing that my religious beliefs are irrelevant, then you shouldn’t have brought them up in the first place.

    The Catholic Church is no friend to transgender people comparing them to a nuclear bomb, that's a downright condemnation.

    Yourself and Zorya are divided on gender, you believe in the 3rd gender outside Western civilisation, Zorya believes in a strict gender binary using her Canadian Debra Oh youtube video in opposition.You never oppose Zorya and her fellow believers, maybe you're afraid to speak up?

    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You’re being judgemental as you like throughout this thread, bit rich for you to be telling others not to be judgemental when throughput the vast majority of your posts you’re demonstrating just how judgemental you are yourself. I have no issue with being judged by other people, you certainly aren’t the first to do it :pac:

    I told you already - freedom of expression and freedom of conscience. They’re the same rights that permit you the freedom to express yourself as your preferred gender, and protect my right to disagree with you.

    So from where gives you the right to judge LGBT people in what they do with their private lives?
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Klaaaz I was involved in organising Pride parades before your arse was as big as a shirt button. I stopped because I didn’t care much for their politics any more.

    Oh sure, pull the other one Father Jack. Is my arse that big or small? :P


  • #1071
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    It’s the entire state of Connecticut, and I believe it’s not the only one. I’m not sure there’s any reason it couldn’t happen here, so it is a worry.

    Has it happened here yet? We haven't heard of a case of a self-ID sports person taking advantage and to add, if it happens here in Ireland it is to be condemned as it damages trans rights. We should abide by IAAF and Olympic rules for sport.
    Candamir wrote:
    There’s a vocal minority who believe that transgender women should be able to compete with no hormonal suppression - Rachael McKinnion (a world masters cycling champion). She argues that endogenous testosterone confers no advantage to transgender women athletes, and she accuses anyone who disagrees with her, such as Martina Navratilova, of being transphobic. (She called Navratilova an ‘absolute transphone’ and she was subsequently booted off Athlete Ally)
    I wish that the majority in the transgender community would speak up and not allow her be the de facto spokesperson.

    Well, as I said way back then when I first registered here in one of the many trans related threads that that minority you speak of are indeed a minority within a minority. It's fecking realism that a self-ID trans woman has an advantage playing women's sport, that is not the first time I said that and my trans friends who have no voice would agree with me. They and I know that hormonal therapy changes everything, some have experienced the consequences, it's life changing.

    As to Martina and this applies here too on this forum, there is quite a distinction that needs to be understood between a non-medical transition and a medical transition hence my pronouncement of transsexual rather than the transgender umbrella. A non-medical transition does indeed entail many advantages in women's sports. Martina never distinguished between the two hence the backlash against her. Not entirely her fault, the trans umbrella has expanded way too much to include too many who are not even trans.


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  • #1072
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Has it happened here yet? We haven't heard of a case of a self-ID sports person taking advantage and to add, if it happens here in Ireland it is to be condemned as it damages trans rights. We should abide by IAAF and Olympic rules for sport.

    Not as far as I know, but we’ve a small trans population, and it’s probably only a matter of time. I believe in the gender recognition act, there originally was an exemption for sports, but activists insisted on taking it out, so I believe if a trans athlete wanted to run without hormonal suppression, they would have to be allowed.
    It’s all well and good saying we should abide by the IAAF and IOC rules, but not all sports are governed by those rules. In fact they often only apply to the most elite levels, and then only Olympic sports. So while girls are leaving sports in their teens and earlier, and we realise that we need to encourage them to play sports not only for physical and mental health reasons, but for the social skills they learn, we risk alienating more and more of them. The Boston Marathon - which is a holy grail for many marathoners because it’s difficult to make the qualifying time - only requires self ID to register as a woman. BAA rules (regarding testosterone levels) only come into play if there’s prize money involved. But for every trans woman who qualifies with her male body and hormonal advantage, one biological woman misses out on a very hard fought for place. That’s just not right.
    klaaaz wrote: »
    As to Martina and this applies here too on this forum, there is quite a distinction that needs to be understood between a non-medical transition and a medical transition hence my pronouncement of transsexual rather than the transgender umbrella. A non-medical transition does indeed entail many advantages in women's sports. Martina never distinguished between the two hence the backlash against her. Not entirely her fault, the trans umbrella has expanded way too much to include too many who are not even trans.

    Well this is what Navratilova said that started the backlash - tbh I can’t see any justification for it.
    “You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women,” I tweeted. “There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard.”


  • #1073
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    Not as far as I know, but we’ve a small trans population, and it’s probably only a matter of time. I believe in the gender recognition act, there originally was an exemption for sports, but activists insisted on taking it out, so I believe if a trans athlete wanted to run without hormonal suppression, they would have to be allowed.
    It’s all well and good saying we should abide by the IAAF and IOC rules, but not all sports are governed by those rules. In fact they often only apply to the most elite levels, and then only Olympic sports. So while girls are leaving sports in their teens and earlier, and we realise that we need to encourage them to play sports not only for physical and mental health reasons, but for the social skills they learn, we risk alienating more and more of them. The Boston Marathon - which is a holy grail for many marathoners because it’s difficult to make the qualifying time - only requires self ID to register as a woman. BAA rules (regarding testosterone levels) only come into play if there’s prize money involved. But for every trans woman who qualifies with her male body and hormonal advantage, one biological woman misses out on a very hard fought for place. That’s just not right.

    Agree, self-ID is where the issue rears it's head in sports and also with an infamous poster here who is obsessed with the UK debate there. Think from memory, there have been about 300 GRC issued in Ireland since 2015. That aside, do you know the rules here for qualification for athletics/any sport at an amateur level on trans? It seems super quiet on the Irish front regarding sport trans-related.
    Well this is what Navratilova said that started the backlash - tbh I can’t see any justification for it.
    Martina wrote:
    “You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women,” I tweeted. “There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard.”

    Martina must have meant self ID in this instance. Referencing genitals does not help matters in "moral speak" ;) , I know as it's a sensitive subject and its really hormonal therapy that counts in a race.
    By the way, there has been no champions, zero medal winners at anything since transsexuals(medical transition) people were first allowed to compete in the Olympics since rules were introduced in 2004(no champs either in IAAF meets).
    There was no avalanche of people transitioning to avail of trophies, now call me hardline as a trans advocate that I agree that rules like this were there to stop abuse. Once a person transitions it's a bloody serious transition, it's a serious genuine step thru surgery to be who a person is.
    Thing is, some posters here object to transsexuals(the full medical transition) competing at anything based on their conservative ideals, as stated there have been zero medal winners at anything among transsexuals when they were first allowed to compete nearly 20 years ago.


  • #1074
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Oh I do know how it's treated, no need for a lecture from yourself. Religion is often cited as a damaging aspect for when a person is experiencing gender dysphoria, family members who would never accept a trans son or daughter use religion as an excuse to never accept a transgender member of their family, that's how your beloved religion is damaging.


    You didn’t appear to be aware of it when you remarked that religious nonsense does not apply in the treatment of gender dysphoria. I’m glad we had the opportunity to clear up that little misunderstanding on your part. It appears to have been the case that it was irrelevant in your circumstances, which would be at least a far more accurate statement given you would only be speaking for yourself.


    The Catholic Church is no friend to transgender people comparing them to a nuclear bomb, that's a downright condemnation.


    Again, one person saying something stupid does not represent the beliefs and opinions of all the people within that group. It would be like if I regarded your beliefs and opinions as representative of anyone else but yourself. I don’t. Catholic doctrine, and I am telling you this for a fact, does not take a position one way or the other on people solely on the basis that they identify themselves as transgender. There is nothing in Catholic doctrine which suggests that people who are transgender will be excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

    That’s irrelevant according to you, and yet you’re the person who keeps bringing it up, and then telling me not to be judgemental and not to be trying to convert people. I know why you’re trying to bring it up, but if you’re not religious, then by your own standards - what does it matter to you?

    Yourself and Zorya are divided on gender, you believe in the 3rd gender outside Western civilisation, Zorya believes in a strict gender binary using her Canadian Debra Oh youtube video in opposition.You never oppose Zorya and her fellow believers, maybe you're afraid to speak up?


    The fact you’re aware of our differences of opinion regarding gender shows that neither myself nor Zorya are afraid to speak up. We’ve spoken up, and we’re speaking up, and that’s how you’re aware of our differences and why you’re trying to use them to deflect and divert from your own beliefs about sex! It’s just more of your categorising people according to your own political world view, or rather categorising people according to those who agree with you, and those who don’t.

    You try to play down the experiences of people with gender dysphoria and those people who identify themselves as transgender who don’t share your beliefs, and try and distract and deflect attention from them, because having to include them in the conversation would mean your beliefs would come under increasing scrutiny. Thankfully for those people and for everyone else in society, they aren’t afraid to speak up for themselves either, and you don’t like it one bit.

    So from where gives you the right to judge LGBT people in what they do with their private lives?


    I told you already - freedom of conscience and freedom of expression. They’re the same laws that give you the right to judge people in what they do in their private lives, and you can’t say you don’t do it because you’ve demonstrated throughout this thread that you have no problem doing it in an attempt to undermine people when you can’t address their arguments. It’s just more deflect and project strategy you’re gaining quite a reputation for doing.

    Oh sure, pull the other one Father Jack. Is my arse that big or small? :P


    I never asked you to believe me. I’m simply pointing out that your assumptions about people on the basis of whether or not they agree or disagree with you are more likely to be inaccurate and flawed as your beliefs about human biology, human rights and a whole host of other beliefs you make about people who aren’t you, while attempting to criticise anyone else who is doing what you’re doing, according to you. I’d respectfully suggest you go and take a long hard look in the mirror before you start criticising other people.


  • #1075
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You didn’t appear to be aware of it when you remarked that religious nonsense does not apply in the treatment of gender dysphoria. I’m glad we had the opportunity to clear up that little misunderstanding on your part. It appears to have been the case that it was irrelevant in your circumstances, which would be at least a far more accurate statement given you would only be speaking for yourself.

    Religious doctrine has ZERO part to play in the treatment of transgender people but that religious doctrine has played a part in dividing families when a member of that family comes out, religion is so damaging.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Again, one person saying something stupid does not represent the beliefs and opinions of all the people within that group. It would be like if I regarded your beliefs and opinions as representative of anyone else but yourself. I don’t. Catholic doctrine, and I am telling you this for a fact, does not take a position one way or the other on people solely on the basis that they identify themselves as transgender. There is nothing in Catholic doctrine which suggests that people who are transgender will be excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

    That’s irrelevant according to you, and yet you’re the person who keeps bringing it up, and then telling me not to be judgemental and not to be trying to convert people. I know why you’re trying to bring it up, but if you’re not religious, then by your own standards - what does it matter to you?

    He is/was your Pope who said that about transgender people, head of your Catholic church. Ball is in your court Father Jack.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The fact you’re aware of our differences of opinion regarding gender shows that neither myself nor Zorya are afraid to speak up. We’ve spoken up, and we’re speaking up, and that’s how you’re aware of our differences and why you’re trying to use them to deflect and divert from your own beliefs about sex! It’s just more of your categorising people according to your own political world view, or rather categorising people according to those who agree with you, and those who don’t.

    You try to play down the experiences of people with gender dysphoria and those people who identify themselves as transgender who don’t share your beliefs, and try and distract and deflect attention from them, because having to include them in the conversation would mean your beliefs would come under increasing scrutiny. Thankfully for those people and for everyone else in society, they aren’t afraid to speak up for themselves either, and you don’t like it one bit.

    So says the one who proclaims a transgender person "should accept who they are" and your famous quote
    One eyed Jack being judgemental of transgender people wrote:
    to learn to accept who they are rather than put that responsibility on anyone else to accept them for who and what they aren’t.

    You don't give a crap about LGBT people's lives with your religious dogma even trying force your warped views on them. Ireland is secular, accept the reality that you cannot force people to abide by your warped religious views.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I told you already - freedom of conscience and freedom of expression. They’re the same laws that give you the right to judge people in what they do in their private lives, and you can’t say you don’t do it because you’ve demonstrated throughout this thread that you have no problem doing it in an attempt to undermine people when you can’t address their arguments. It’s just more deflect and project strategy you’re gaining quite a reputation for doing.

    Freemason stuff, off with the fairies with you. Gemma is looking for support in her election, you would fit right in.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I never asked you to believe me. I’m simply pointing out that your assumptions about people on the basis of whether or not they agree or disagree with you are more likely to be inaccurate and flawed as your beliefs about human biology, human rights and a whole host of other beliefs you make about people who aren’t you, while attempting to criticise anyone else who is doing what you’re doing, according to you. I’d respectfully suggest you go and take a long hard look in the mirror before you start criticising other people.
    On this you proclaim human rights yet deny the human rights of LGBT people to be what they are. Oh, I've looked in the mirror at my beautiful self and i'm proud to say that i'm a supporter of LGBT rights, at the end of the day I don't give a feck what people are as long as they are respectable, I never judge, i'm open minded unlike narrow minded folk.


  • #1076
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    On this you proclaim human rights yet deny the human rights of LGBT people to be what they are.


    Again, you appear to think people who identify themselves as either lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender are all one homogeneous group who share the same beliefs you do. You ignore the fact that the vast majority of people, regardless of their sex, gender or sexual orientation, do not share your political ideology. Fact is - it’s only a tiny minority who actually do, and they’re discovering that people aren’t taken in by their pity politics and trying to make people feel guilty for telling the minority who share your beliefs, to naff off.

    Oh, I've looked in the mirror at my beautiful self and i'm proud to say that i'm a supporter of LGBT rights, at the end of the day I don't give a feck what people are as long as they are respectable, I never judge, i'm open minded unlike narrow minded folk.


    Bollocks.

    And frankly on that note I’ll leave it there, as I’ve given you enough attention already.


  • #1077
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Klaaz would have been a cardinal at 40 a generation ago, put McQuaid in to a small Parish for being too open.


  • #1078
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Again, you appear to think people who identify themselves as either lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender are all one homogeneous group who share the same beliefs you do. You ignore the fact that the vast majority of people, regardless of their sex, gender or sexual orientation, do not share your political ideology. Fact is - it’s only a tiny minority who actually do, and they’re discovering that people aren’t taken in by their pity politics and trying to make people feel guilty for telling the minority who share your beliefs, to naff off.

    Oh this again, portraying your religious involvement in the LGBT movement, that's quite a laugh Jack as the religious movement are quite hostile to LGBT people persecuting them for decades, particularly the Catholic Church in this country. Young people have been persecuted because of their orientation, your kind of way will never rule again, secularism is here to stay for good.

    The LGBT community just want to be left alone to be themselves that includes all the L, G, B and T, I have friends belonging to all. Yet there are those here on boards trying to divide us., everyone of the community are still together in Ireland.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Bollocks.

    And frankly on that note I’ll leave it there, as I’ve given you enough attention already.

    It must really bother you that you finally met a poster who is actually involved* in the Dublin LGBT and yes I have actually being photographed in mainstream news marching as an ally. We as a group thoroughly reject your religious ideology to convert LGBT people and shall march as a one wholesome group on June 29th with Pride as the name suggests. You're welcome to protest with your placard "thou shall be judged!", just don't get offended and upset when people laugh at you!

    That star indicates that i'm not a core organiser, i'm not a part of the inner core team if that sounds right but am associated with them, I know alot of them personally who are really good folk. I found this site by accident over 6 months ago, it was the 6th result in Google on something totally unrelated. Maybe it bothers you and others that you actually hear someone from the "coal face" of the LGBT community especially the trans contingent, oops I stepped on your toes! :D


  • #1079
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Oh this again, portraying your religious involvement in the LGBT movement, that's quite a laugh Jack as the religious movement are quite hostile to LGBT people persecuting them for decades, particularly the Catholic Church in this country. Young people have been persecuted because of their orientation, your kind of way will never rule again, secularism is here to stay for good.

    The LGBT community just want to be left alone to be themselves that includes all the L, G, B and T, I have friends belonging to all. Yet there are those here on boards trying to divide us., everyone of the community are still together in Ireland.



    It must really bother you that you finally met a poster who is actually involved* in the Dublin LGBT and yes I have actually being photographed in mainstream news marching as an ally. We as a group thoroughly reject your religious ideology to convert LGBT people and shall march as a one wholesome group on June 29th with Pride as the name suggests. You're welcome to protest with your placard "thou shall be judged!", just don't get offended and upset when people laugh at you!

    That star indicates that i'm not a core organiser, i'm not a part of the inner core team if that sounds right but am associated with them, I know alot of them personally who are really good folk. I found this site by accident over 6 months ago, it was the 6th result in Google on something totally unrelated. Maybe it bothers you and others that you actually hear someone from the "coal face" of the LGBT community especially the trans contingent, oops I stepped on your toes! :D

    I'm still not sure of you are a radical Catholic troll or genuine.


  • #1080
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Danzy wrote: »
    Klaaz would have been a cardinal at 40 a generation ago, put McQuaid in to a small Parish for being too open.
    Danzy wrote: »
    I'm still not sure of you are a radical Catholic troll or genuine.

    Me Catholick, really? A Catholic(the true version from which there is an ageing dwindling number) does not envision individual freedoms as church doctrine has to be abided by the faithful there.

    I'm not sure which Dan i'm speaking to here as there have been 3 Dans of various sorts replying to this thread, are ye all related? :P

    Oh and the Catholic cardinals(including the Pope) all wear dresses, does that make them crossdressers and perhaps questioning their gender as the conservative posters say that they are violating the "gender norms" ?


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  • #1081
    KikiLaRue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    recedite wrote: »
    So you think its fine for a homosexual boss to fire a homophobe worker, but if it happens the other way round you throw a hissy fit?


    Is it not possible that people could just "agree to disagree" about their private lives/private views, and just get on with the work?


    See, this is the problem with the LGBT lobby these days. You have gone from oppressed minority to oppressor minority.

    Yes. Are you honestly telling me you don’t see the difference between sacking someone for being gay and sacking someone for being homophobic?

    Clue: You have the right to be gay and it’s enshrined in law, there is no right to be homophobic.

    This is not oppressive.


  • #1082
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Yes. Are you honestly telling me you don’t see the difference between sacking someone for being gay and sacking someone for being homophobic?

    Clue: You have the right to be gay and it’s enshrined in law, there is no right to be homophobic.

    This is not oppressive.

    But say they don't fire them because they are gay, but because they engage in homosexual acts? The boss believes engaging in such activity goes against the ethos of the company.

    Still ok?

    Do you think if I came out strongly against the abortion laws currently being enacted in certain states in America I should be able to lose my job? I could be going against my companies diversity and inclusion policy by alienating pro-life people.


  • #1083
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Oh this again, portraying your religious involvement in the LGBT movement


    I feel like I should clarify a couple of things for you here.

    Are you familiar with the expression “tilting at windmills”? I didn’t portray any religious involvement with any movement. You brought religion into the conversation in an attempt to deflect from your own ideology. The whole religion thing came entirely from you, not me.

    klaaaz wrote: »
    The LGBT community just want to be left alone to be themselves that includes all the L, G, B and T, I have friends belonging to all. Yet there are those here on boards trying to divide us., everyone of the community are still together in Ireland.


    And again, I thought we cleared this up already - you are not the spokesperson for anyone. The vast majority of people who are either lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender are left alone and nobody interferes with or is interested in interfering in their lives.

    Then there are a tiny minority of people who don’t just want to be left alone but rather they seek to impose their ideology on other people, and it is those people and their ideology, who people are opposed to. That includes people who are either lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender who do not wish to have your ideology imposed upon them, and do not wish to be associated or tarred with your ideology. Most people don’t do this, because they’re able to distinguish between people who try to impose themselves upon other people, and those who have no wish to do so.

    You appear to be more of the former than the latter, and the pushback you get is directly proportional to the degree to which you’re attempting to impose your ideology upon people who do not share your beliefs. Nobody has to divide any “community” that were never a community in the first place. Your assumption that everyone who identifies themselves as either lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender agrees with your ideology is fundamentally and demonstrably a falsehood, and it’s a damaging falsehood because anyone who doesn’t agree with your ideology is immediately labelled an enemy of your ideology who must be eliminated. Your claim that “everyone of the community are still together in Ireland” is just empty rhetorical nonsense.

    klaaaz wrote: »
    It must really bother you that you finally met a poster who is actually involved* in the Dublin LGBT and yes I have actually being photographed in mainstream news marching as an ally. We as a group thoroughly reject your religious ideology to convert LGBT people and shall march as a one wholesome group on June 29th with Pride as the name suggests.


    Klaaaz what bothers me is your previous acknowledgement that you don’t speak for nor represent anyone but yourself, and here you are contradicting yourself speaking as though you represent other people or can speak on behalf of other people who do not share your ideology. You’re attempting to align yourself with people who want nothing to do with your ideology, as is patently obvious from the number of people who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender who have come out and said that they have no wish to be associated with your ideology, and you do not represent them.

    I have no reason to be offended by your ideology, I simply disagree with it. That’s all. I’ve given you the basis for why I disagree with it which has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with your attempts to promote unscientific nonsense and try and impose your ideology upon other people through political and social activism which includes legislation, education, healthcare and other public policies which you are by now no doubt fully aware of the fact that they apply to everyone in this country.

    klaaaz wrote: »
    That star indicates that i'm not a core organiser, i'm not a part of the inner core team if that sounds right but am associated with them, I know alot of them personally who are really good folk. I found this site by accident over 6 months ago, it was the 6th result in Google on something totally unrelated. Maybe it bothers you and others that you actually hear someone from the "coal face" of the LGBT community especially the trans contingent, oops I stepped on your toes! :D


    You’re no more at the coal face of anything than I am, you’re neither that important nor that influential, so your presence doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I wouldn’t care if you were gone tomorrow as there have been many people before you who tried to impose their ideology upon other people, and there will no doubt be many people after you who will try to impose your ideology upon other people. It’s not you personally I care for one way or the other, it’s the ideas you’re attempting to promote that I question.

    Like any authoritarian gatekeeper though, you don’t want people questioning your ideology, let alone can you handle the idea of people bare-faced having the temerity to disagree with you as opposed to just accepting your ideology as fact. You’re no different to the authoritarian craw thumpers that once demanded everyone be complicit with their ideology. I never took them seriously either, as they did not represent anyone but themselves, and were not representative of the vast majority of people whom they claimed to represent.


  • #1084
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Yes. Are you honestly telling me you don’t see the difference between sacking someone for being gay and sacking someone for being homophobic?

    Clue: You have the right to be gay and it’s enshrined in law, there is no right to be homophobic.

    This is not oppressive.

    Why do I not have the right to be homophobic? Not to carry out an act that is homophobic, but to have homophobic thoughts and ideas.
    Is this not covered under freedom of expression and also probably freedom of religion?
    The idea that one could be sacked because they have negative thoughts or feelings (which may be compelled by their religion) towards homosexuals is absurd.

    I’m not homophobic btw, but I’ve been called transphobic on this thread. Should I be worried about my job?


  • #1085
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Wow, One eyed Jack has mentioned the word ideology 19 times in one post!! That's quite an ideological feat in a robotic post.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110162809&postcount=1083


  • #1086
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Wow, One eyed Jack has mentioned the word ideology 19 times in one post!! That's quite an ideological feat in a robotic post.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110162809&postcount=1083


    I’ll make it very simple for you so -

    Anyone who regards themselves as a scientist qualified to have an opinion on human biology, who promotes the belief that it is possible for humans to change their sex, is nothing but a fraud, and should be regarded as a fraud. Their beliefs with regard to human biology have no scientific merit whatsoever. I don’t need a relevant scientific qualification in human biology to determine for myself that they’re talking complete bollocks.


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  • #1087
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    klaaaz wrote:
    Wow, One eyed Jack has mentioned the word ideology 19 times in one post!! That's quite an ideological feat in a robotic post.

    And yet again, you ignore any conversation in order to get a petty jibe in.

    Your posts are becoming tiring.


  • #1088
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Agree, self-ID is where the issue rears it's head in sports and also with an infamous poster here who is obsessed with the UK debate there. Think from memory, there have been about 300 GRC issued in Ireland since 2015. That aside, do you know the rules here for qualification for athletics/any sport at an amateur level on trans? It seems super quiet on the Irish front regarding sport trans-related.





    Martina must have meant self ID in this instance. Referencing genitals does not help matters in "moral speak" ;) , I know as it's a sensitive subject and its really hormonal therapy that counts in a race.
    By the way, there has been no champions, zero medal winners at anything since transsexuals(medical transition) people were first allowed to compete in the Olympics since rules were introduced in 2004(no champs either in IAAF meets).
    There was no avalanche of people transitioning to avail of trophies, now call me hardline as a trans advocate that I agree that rules like this were there to stop abuse. Once a person transitions it's a bloody serious transition, it's a serious genuine step thru surgery to be who a person is.
    Thing is, some posters here object to transsexuals(the full medical transition) competing at anything based on their conservative ideals, as stated there have been zero medal winners at anything among transsexuals when they were first allowed to compete nearly 20 years ago.

    I can’t find any mention of transgender rules on the Athletics Ireland page.
    This is the heads of bill from the GRA that was removed:

    Head 26 enables a body responsible for regulating participation in competitive gender-affected sporting events to prohibit or restrict the participation in such events of a person whose acquired gender has been recognised under the Act and who is seeking to compete in the acquired gender. The prohibition or restriction can be effected if it is deemed necessary to secure fair competition or the safety of other competitors.”

    As this was removed, there’s no mention in the GRA for any ability for sports bodies to restrict participation in sport. I read about a MtF archer (I know nothing about this sport, but she recognises males have an advantage over females) competing at college level with no restriction.

    Given that’s there’s only about 300 people with gender recognition certificates here, it’s a small number, so it’s not really surprising that there have been no winners (Irish or otherwise) at the Olympics or at athletics meets. How many of those are FtM (would be at a disadvantage for most sports), how many are even in the right age bracket to compete at elite level in non age restricted competition? The population is far too small to statistically expect to see an Olympic champion amoung them. It’s a weak argument.

    Personally, I’m against any transwoman competing in women’s divisions, even if they are below the IOC limits (which btw are twice the levels of testosterone that are applied to intersex athletes). The benefits of a male puberty, and years of training with testosterone don’t all suddenly disappear once testosterone levels drop. Yes, there is a drop off in performance, but many advantages still persist. And as Rachael McKinnion says, male advantage isn’t just due to testosterone, so paradoxically, she makes the argument that all trans should be barred!

    Anyhow, I think this has been hashed out on the other thread, so I’ll leave it at that.


  • #1089
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    Yes. Are you honestly telling me you don’t see the difference between sacking someone for being gay and sacking someone for being homophobic?

    Clue: You have the right to be gay and it’s enshrined in law, there is no right to be homophobic.
    This is not oppressive.
    It is oppressive. From a strictly legal perspective, yes a person's sexual orientation as currently listed as one of the "protected grounds" in Irish law. So a person can't be sacked because of it. In NI its a bit different, because their political views are also protected.
    So there is scope for improving our laws alright, to give broader equality to peoples views. The homophobe shoiuld also be allowed to hold their views.


    Leaving laws aside for a moment, I presume you agree a person should not be sacked because of their religion. But what if a person is an atheist, and their view is that another person's religion is nonsense. Should they be allowed to hold that view? Or should only the religious person's view be taken into account?
    IMO these two people should just agree to disagree while at work. Leave it at that. As long as one is not hounding or harassing the other, there should not be a problem.
    It should be the same for the homophobe and the homosexual.


  • #1090
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    this thread is becoming inTRANSigent


  • #1091
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Candamir wrote: »
    I can’t find any mention of transgender rules on the Athletics Ireland page.
    This is the heads of bill from the GRA that was removed:

    Head 26 enables a body responsible for regulating participation in competitive gender-affected sporting events to prohibit or restrict the participation in such events of a person whose acquired gender has been recognised under the Act and who is seeking to compete in the acquired gender. The prohibition or restriction can be effected if it is deemed necessary to secure fair competition or the safety of other competitors.”

    As this was removed, there’s no mention in the GRA for any ability for sports bodies to restrict participation in sport. I read about a MtF archer (I know nothing about this sport, but she recognises males have an advantage over females) competing at college level with no restriction.

    Given that’s there’s only about 300 people with gender recognition certificates here, it’s a small number, so it’s not really surprising that there have been no winners (Irish or otherwise) at the Olympics or at athletics meets. How many of those are FtM (would be at a disadvantage for most sports), how many are even in the right age bracket to compete at elite level in non age restricted competition? The population is far too small to statistically expect to see an Olympic champion amoung them. It’s a weak argument.

    Personally, I’m against any transwoman competing in women’s divisions, even if they are below the IOC limits (which btw are twice the levels of testosterone that are applied to intersex athletes). The benefits of a male puberty, and years of training with testosterone don’t all suddenly disappear once testosterone levels drop. Yes, there is a drop off in performance, but many advantages still persist. And as Rachael McKinnion says, male advantage isn’t just due to testosterone, so paradoxically, she makes the argument that all trans should be barred!

    Anyhow, I think this has been hashed out on the other thread, so I’ll leave it at that.

    Thanks for looking that up. We also have an Equal Status Act which has been ignored here by posters. Maybe someone in the Legal forum might know the exact situation in Ireland regarding transgender competitors in sports?

    What I meant is that there has not been a single world Olympic or IAAF transsexual champion(or in the medals) since the rules allowed them to first compete nearly 20 years ago, not just Ireland.


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  • #1092
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Thanks for looking that up. We also have an Equal Status Act which has been ignored here by posters. Maybe someone in the Legal forum might know the exact situation in Ireland regarding transgender competitors in sports?

    What I meant is that there has not been a single world Olympic or IAAF transsexual champion(or in the medals) since the rules allowed them to first compete nearly 20 years ago, not just Ireland.

    I mean anywhere, not just Ireland. Prior to Rio in 2016, the rules required a surgical transition - so that requirement would reduce the numbers who qualify significantly, so really to be objective, we can only look at the last 3 years. Even for Rio, the rules only changed that year, so I think it would have been hard for athletes to even meet the qualification times and under the new rules in time (I’m not sure if there was some leeway given there for the transition, but either way, it was a very short run up). All eyes on Tokyo 2020 I suppose!


  • #1093
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Thanks for looking that up. We also have an Equal Status Act which has been ignored here by posters. Maybe someone in the Legal forum might know the exact situation in Ireland regarding transgender competitors in sports?


    Irish Equal Status Acts (there’s not just one, there are a few) apply to everyone in society with regard to the provision of goods and services. The reason they’re being ignored by posters here is because they’re largely irrelevant, and include exemptions which allow for discrimination under certain provisions.

    As Candamir has already pointed out to you, the relevant legislation with regard to people who are transgender competing in sports, is the Gender Recognition Act, from which the exemptions were removed.


  • #1094
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Irish Equal Status Acts (there’s not just one, there are a few) apply to everyone in society with regard to the provision of goods and services. The reason they’re being ignored by posters here is because they’re largely irrelevant, and include exemptions which allow for discrimination under certain provisions.

    That line is contradictory, the Equal Status Act can be used by those who provide goods and services relevant to transgender people hence the law is relevant. And yes those who provide said goods and services can if they so wish use an exemption in relation to transgender people, posters here ignore that law.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    As Candamir has already pointed out to you, the relevant legislation with regard to people who are transgender competing in sports, is the Gender Recognition Act, from which the exemptions were removed.

    What is the the status in Irish sports since the Gender Recognition Act came in 2015, can a male legally change their gender and then compete in a female category of any sport with no hormonal restriction or is it down to the relevant sporting body to implement their own rules regarding transgender people?


  • #1095
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    That line is contradictory, the Equal Status Act can be used by those who provide goods and services relevant to transgender people hence the law is relevant. And yes those who provide said goods and services can if they so wish use an exemption in relation to transgender people, posters here ignore that law.


    The Equal Status Acts aren’t relevant to sports. You appeared to be just floating ideas out there with no foundation. You tried the same when you claimed recently that there are no anti-discrimination laws in Ireland, and when shown evidence to the contrary, decided as you do, to shift the goalposts and try and bring something else in that was completely irrelevant to your original claim.

    What is the the status in Irish sports since the Gender Recognition Act came in 2015, can a male legally change their gender and then compete in a female category of any sport with no hormonal restriction or is it down to the relevant sporting body to implement their own rules regarding transgender people?


    They can do what they like, and they can be challenged on their position through the Courts, it would be the Courts then which would determine whether a governing body or councils rules are in breach of Irish legislation or not.

    Can a male be legally recognised as their preferred gender? We’re aware that they can. Does this automatically mean they are entitled to compete in women’s sports in Ireland? No it does not. Each case would be decided upon it’s own merits by the Courts if a legal challenge was presented.


  • #1096
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    The Equal Status Acts aren’t relevant to sports. You appeared to be just floating ideas out there with no foundation. You tried the same when you claimed recently that there are no anti-discrimination laws in Ireland, and when shown evidence to the contrary, decided as you do, to shift the goalposts and try and bring something else in that was completely irrelevant to your original claim.

    Of course, there are anti-discrimination laws thankfully which you agree. Some posters here forget which country they post from and talk about when its Ireland where we have our own laws.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    They can do what they like, and they can be challenged on their position through the Courts, it would be the Courts then which would determine whether a governing body or councils rules are in breach of Irish legislation or not.

    Can a male be legally recognised as their preferred gender? We’re aware that they can. Does this automatically mean they are entitled to compete in women’s sports in Ireland? No it does not. Each case would be decided upon it’s own merits by the Courts if a legal challenge was presented.

    So in 4 years in Ireland since self-ID gender recognition came into being, there has been no flood of transgender athletes in the female category and if there was, there was not a single court case on the issue. (assuming that there is indeed a legal basis to object to a transgender athlete in sporting competition)


  • #1097
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,204 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    klaaaz wrote: »
    Of course, there are anti-discrimination laws thankfully which you agree. Some posters here forget which country they post from and talk about when its Ireland where we have our own laws.


    Nobody here as far as I’m aware appears to have forgotten what country they’re posting from?

    We can talk about legislation and how people in other countries are affected by it without limiting ourselves to Ireland. That’s why I asked you what jurisdiction you were posting from that you claimed there were no anti-discrimination laws. I was well aware of their existence in Ireland before it appears you were.

    It’s no different to being aware of politics and legislation in other countries which may influence Irish society and legislation. The basis of much of our laws are derived from Common Law which originated from the UK for example. We have some differences in specific legislation, but for the most part we’re pretty much even. Of course the UK had the Gender Recognition Act nine years before Ireland, but there is no doubt that UK law influenced Irish law, and legislation in other countries influenced Irish legislation. That’s because Common Law is based upon precedent, regardless of jurisdiction.

    We are also compelled to comply with a boatload of International laws and legislation, so this idea that “we have our own laws” as though we are living in some idealised Wakanda State that exists in your own mind? I really don’t know where you dredged that up from or whether it’s something else you’re just throwing out there again with no foundation.

    So in 4 years in Ireland since self-ID gender recognition came into being, there has been no flood of transgender athletes in the female category and if there was, there was not a single court case on the issue. (assuming that there is indeed a legal basis to object to a transgender athlete in sporting competition)


    Not that I’m aware of anyway, but what’s your point? It only takes one legal challenge to set a precedent, and as we discussed earlier - our laws are based upon precedent, like the Irish State having to introduce legislation following the numerous legal challenges by Lydia Foy to Irish laws as they were at the time. It’s an incredibly expensive and arduous process for all involved, so I wouldn’t generally recommend it, but if an organisation wants to play by their own rules and they can afford to do it, it’s simply a question of who has the better legal representation.


  • #1098
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    klaaaz wrote: »
    What I meant is that there has not been a single world Olympic or IAAF transsexual champion(or in the medals) since the rules allowed them to first compete nearly 20 years ago, not just Ireland.

    Most athletes do not compete at Olympic or IAAF standard, that level is only for those at the absolute top of their sport. Transgender females have had success at lower levels, such as Rachel McKinnion.

    If the free-for-all and rewriting of the rules of biology is allowed to continue as many are pushing for, it's only a matter of time before transgender females are setting records at IAAF and Olympic level.

    No matter how politically incorrect this view is, transgender females are not biological females no matter how many interest groups keep shouting it or what the law says may be printed on a birth cert.


  • #1099
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    klaaaz wrote: »

    What is the the status in Irish sports since the Gender Recognition Act came in 2015, can a male legally change their gender and then compete in a female category of any sport with no hormonal restriction or is it down to the relevant sporting body to implement their own rules regarding transgender people?

    Olympic rules mean you can self identify but are required to conduct a full year if hormone therapy in order to be eligible to compete.


  • #1100
    Patty Hearst
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Patty Hearst


    This 'Woman' attacked a young girl with a hammer but luckily the cops had their priorities straight and recorded the crime as having being committed by a woman.

    The 'Woman' also happened to be an advisor to the local police on Gender, Equality and Diversity issues.

    I wonder will she lose her job now?

    Screen-Shot-2019-05-14-at-16-54-52.png


  • #1101
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Patty Hearst wrote: »
    This 'Woman' attacked a young girl with a hammer but luckily the cops had their priorities straight and recorded the crime as having being committed by a woman.

    The 'Woman' also happened to be an advisor to the local police on Gender, Equality and Diversity issues.

    I wonder will she lose her job now?

    Screen-Shot-2019-05-14-at-16-54-52.png

    I was going to post that earlier, Patty, but felt it might solidify my reputation as a crank :D:D
    It is infuriating. This crime is being reported and recorded as a female crime - when it is nothing of the sort. I thought it could not possibly be that Carol Lea was a gender advisor for the police but I tracked it down earlier - they did so between 2002 and 2007, and also assisted at University as a freelance trainer discussing Gender with students at Liverpool Hope University and Wirral Hospital Trust over a number of years.

    The absolute state of that picture with the hammer. The odd thing is, if one watches the video of the attack, that Carol Lea went and got the hammer really calmly from the boot. They later punched the girl so hard in the head that she had to be hospitalised. Over a fricking car parking space!!! The girl is 19, Carol is 55, this is male on female violence. Oh anyways I am truly fcuked off with this kind of sh!t.


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