Why is there no digital leap card for digital wallets

Carawaystick · 08-07-2020 12:28pm

markpb wrote: »

Are there no shops along those routes? We’re talking about Dublin Bus routes, let’s not exaggerate.

Its over 14km from Aldi in Blessington to the petrol station near the Citywest junction on the N81.

bk · 08-07-2020 12:50pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Its over 14km from Aldi in Blessington to the petrol station near the Citywest junction on the N81.

As I mentioned it certainly wouldn't be an issue with Leap. Just order a leap card online, it gets posted to you or use the debit card you already have or order a revolut one and get it delivered to you.

As others have mentioned, how does a person like this get cash in the first place to pay for a bus ride? You get the cash from either a shop, bank, ATM or post office.

Leap/debit cards would actually be easier.

galwaytt · 09-07-2020 12:51pm

I wouldn't get wound up about it: PTSB don't allow Google Pay or Apple Pay on their cards anyway, so even if DB enable their end, the bank won't. Not sure if any other banks are the same.

p_haugh · 09-07-2020 1:05pm

galwaytt wrote: »

I wouldn't get wound up about it: PTSB don't allow Google Pay or Apple Pay on their cards anyway, so even if DB enable their end, the bank won't. Not sure if any other banks are the same.

Same case with Bank of Ireland *sigh*

CatInABox · 09-07-2020 2:06pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Same case with Bank of Ireland *sigh*

Not so much "won't" as "can't". They're currently reaping the harvest for not investing a cent into their IT systems for decades. Not sure about PTSB, but BOI are in dire straights with their IT.

Amirani · 09-07-2020 2:10pm

galwaytt wrote: »

I wouldn't get wound up about it: PTSB don't allow Google Pay or Apple Pay on their cards anyway, so even if DB enable their end, the bank won't. Not sure if any other banks are the same.

You don't need Google Pay or Apple Pay, you just need a card with contactless payments. It's hard to get one without contactless these days.

antimatterx · 09-07-2020 2:25pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Not so much "won't" as "can't". They're currently reaping the harvest for not investing a cent into their IT systems for decades. Not sure about PTSB, but BOI are in dire straights with their IT.

How bad are BOI?

It might be a good opportunity for some contractors to make bank.

CatInABox · 09-07-2020 2:48pm

antimatterx wrote: »

How bad are BOI?

It might be a good opportunity for some contractors to make bank.

Oh yeah, you're not the only one to think of that:

Bank of Ireland bosses fight to rein in tech bill (paywall alert)

A €500 million project is looking at coming in at €2 billion. I actually think that they pressed pause on it there last year, which comes with it's own problems, and I can't imagine that COVID is helping them.

Dravokivich · 09-07-2020 3:21pm

When I used to do work with them, they were transitioning from NT4, to WinXP, at a time when other organisations were transitioning to Win7. They had a high dependency on legacy solutions, because the stuff they were using was developed in-house. I'd imagine their concern with "scope creep" is more to do with SAAS and licensing costs.

I can understand why they'd be slow to progress with IT, when a lot of financial companies would have dove in agressively in the 80's, for it to be archaic by the 90's. They need to learn from the position they left themselves in 10 years ago and make their IT adaptable and easier to expand. It seems they didn't.

bk · 09-07-2020 4:06pm

To be clear, both PTSB and BOI have contactless debit/ATM and credit cards. So if/when Leap implement contactless payments, your existing PTSB/BOI debt cards will just work with it by holding the card to the card reader when entering the bus/Luas, etc.

Mobile payments (Apple Pay, etc.) are an additional feature on top of contactless payments, that yes, PTSB/BOI will need to eventually support, but it wouldn't be a stopper for Leap, you would still have other options (e.g. use your physical card).

BTW AIB/KBC/Ulsterbank/Revolut/N26 all already support both contactless debit/credit cards AND mobile payments (Apple Pay, etc).

Of course if the NTA decided to also support you putting your Leap card in your Apple/Google Wallet, then you could use that instead of your PTSB/BOI cards for mobile payment.

Of course the above is all dependent on where the NTA decides to go with Leap.

Dravokivich · 09-07-2020 4:13pm

With NTA pursuing contactless Debit Cards, what ever is done with that, should lead into opportunities for the other stuff there.

bk · 09-07-2020 6:32pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

With NTA pursuing contactless Debit Cards, what ever is done with that, should lead into opportunities for the other stuff there.

Yes I think the ideal would be the following:

1) Contactless cards + contacless mobile payment (Apple Pay, etc.) for pay as you go option, including daily and weekly capping.

The advantage being that it requires zero setup, just use what you already have and great for tourists arriving off a plane.

2) Allow you the option to store your leap card in Apple/Google Wallet. This would be very useful for other users, e.g. Free Travel Pass, Child Leap Card (discount), Monthly/Annual Taxsaver tickets, various mutli-trip tickets.

Of course the physical leap card should remain an option for both type of users who prefer that.

p_haugh · 20-07-2020 11:51am

Somewhat relevant to this thread, TFI are currently trialling a ticketing app called TFI Go on the 133. Adult & student 10 journey tickets can be bought and it works like the ticketing app found in Edinburgh, in that you activate the ticket before showing the phone to the driver. See here for more info: https://www.transportforireland.ie/tfi-go-app/
(photo taken from a FB group)

Melanchthon · 20-07-2020 10:25pm

YellowBucket wrote: »

Main reason is the technology has marched on very, very quickly and transit systems have a lot of expensive technology in terms of card readers and systems behind them.

Leap was planned well over a decade ago and was state of the art at the time.

We’ve gone from a situation where most people didn’t have useful debit cards / credit cards and to one where in a short space of time the banks moved to EMV and contactless

I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

devnull · 20-07-2020 10:35pm

Melanchthon wrote: »

I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

The biggest problem with accepting contactless payment on-board buses is the fact that the equipment on said buses is based on very outdated technology that can barely cope with current functionality, let alone anything more.

This current machines include a processor that was first developed in 1985 and has just 1 Mbytes RAM and 1 Mbytes flash storage which has to include the operating system, software and any transaction data data. It's simply impossible to provide the functionality you desire without replacing all the bus ticket machines.

Dravokivich · 21-07-2020 10:11am

Melanchthon wrote: »

I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

You don't want to be on the forefront of technology. I don't think Leap ever claimed to be "State of the Art" ?

Ticketing was the main issue that needed to be addressed (the actual product that gets you from A to

, not the medium to validate it (the slip of paper in your hand), which Leap was just brought in to replace. And hasn't really done anything more since.

For example, ramblers/period/return tickets should be done away with and fare caps should be regional town/city based, as opposed to Operator based and just available in Dublin. But no, a 90 minute ticket will do (*cough* T90), which is just a rehash of the Leap90 feature, which only came in because the Transfer90 ticket for Dublin Bus was discontinued.

GT89 · 21-07-2020 12:46pm

devnull wrote: »

The biggest problem with accepting contactless payment on-board buses is the fact that the equipment on said buses is based on very outdated technology that can barely cope with current functionality, let alone anything more.

This current machines include a processor that was first developed in 1985 and has just 1 Mbytes RAM and 1 Mbytes flash storage which has to include the operating system, software and any transaction data data. It's simply impossible to provide the functionality you desire without replacing all the bus ticket machines.

Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

markpb · 21-07-2020 1:25pm

GT89 wrote: »

Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

The barriers might be newer but they wouldn't come with EMV compatible/certified hardware unless it was originally specified when they were bought. Leapcard requires contactless hardware but not EMV hardware (which could be more expensive). The readers can usually be swapped out fairly easily but that's only half the battle. Unless the barrier knows how much to charge you, it now needs to be connected to a back-end system that can match your entry event with your exit event, work out how much to charge and authorise that amount. That back-end system won't be the Leapcard system because they're completely different.

Dravokivich · 21-07-2020 3:17pm

GT89 wrote: »

Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

I wouldn't be so sure. For example the validators at Irish Rail ticket gates, are set for tag on / tag off at a hardware level. IE: If you get stuck at the front of the gate, after you've tagged on, you've no means to tag off. Unless someone is willing to do it for you on the other side.

While changing payment method may not be difficult, there's already something that's been set on the device, which would lessen confidence in what it can do. Would you pass over a debit card, phone, or watch, for someone to help you with that, if you get stuck?

YellowBucket · 21-07-2020 4:17pm

It would probably be cheaper to just rebuild it with a new system overlaying the old one until it were rolled out. Trying to repurpose old tech, especially IT systems is usually pointless.

You could easily retain backward compatibility with existing Leap Cards on new tech, but the reader hardware would likely need to go.

You could also potentially push it into the cloud & make more use of people’s mobiles by doing the ticketing in the apps with tagging on being done with beacons using NFC or (QR codes displayed around every stop & verify with your GPS coordinates).

Payment would just be entirely virtual and held in a central database. Season tickets / passes would just be held on the phone and you’d only sport check them.

A system like that would entirely eliminate complicated equipment to update and maintain. You’d just download an app & use transit.

Those not using the app could probably just stick with a bog standard leap card, but 98% of the adult population has a smartphone so it’s a bit stupid to be stuck in 1990s smart card thinking on this.

Also using EMV brings in skimming risks and processing financial data all over the network.

bk · 25-07-2020 3:33pm

BTW Some interesting news from the NTA meeting minutes in the last month or two.

Seemingly they have signed a contract for the development of an app for the iPhone that allows you to top up Leap cards using NFC, similar to what you can already do using the Android app.

While iPhones have long had NFC support (Apple Pay uses it), until recently Apple didn't allow it to be used by third party apps. Apple have now changed that and are now allowing at least some limited access to NFC for Third party apps, so looks like the NTA will make use of this for leap now.

Good news. Obviously this is not the Next Generation Ticketing, that still seems to be years off, but at least something for the short term.

In other news, the minutes also seem to suggest that the existing ticket machines are end of life and that they will need to be replaced, hallelujah.

But in less good news, the Next Generation Ticketing project still sounds like it is only in the early stage and they are saying it will take 20 years to fully rollout!!!!!!!

dfx- · 07-08-2020 12:07am

uber for buses in Sevenoaks, while we are still persevering with WayFarers and physical cards. It shows places are moving beyond cards and contactless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ddExZbKD8

And yet still managing to offer a pay cash option....

GT89 · 07-08-2020 12:55am

dfx- wrote: »

uber for buses in Sevenoaks, while we are still persevering with WayFarers and physical cards. It shows places are moving beyond cards and contactless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ddExZbKD8

And yet still managing to offer a pay cash option....

It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

devnull · 07-08-2020 1:04am

GT89 wrote: »

It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

There's been a lot of operators who have tried it in the UK over the last year and generally it hasn't been very successful - most of the schemes closed.

p_haugh · 07-08-2020 9:45am

Even in the video, the General Manager for go2 says that realistically the DRT service will only work properly when complimented with actual set routes.

p_haugh · 07-08-2020 11:13am

Official word from the NTA on the new mobile ticketing app here: https://www.thejournal.ie/nta-mobile-ticketing-app-5169192-Aug2020/?utm_source=shortlink

dfx- · 07-08-2020 4:34pm

Going from somewhere that uses an app to physical cards, NFC or even contactless feels like going back to the dark ages.

p_haugh wrote: »

Even in the video, the General Manager for go2 says that realistically the DRT service will only work properly when complimented with actual set routes.

Absolutely and it wouldn't be a solution for the size of network and passenger numbers of Dublin, but at least people are thinking beyond whatever TfL does and replacing Leap by 2027.

bk · 08-08-2020 12:32pm

dfx- wrote: »

Absolutely and it wouldn't be a solution for the size of network and passenger numbers of Dublin, but at least people are thinking beyond whatever TfL does and replacing Leap by 2027.

To be honest, we shouldn't be thinking beyond, we should just be focusing on implementing what has already proven to work extremely well in other mid sized European cities.

We are very much in catch up mode and not in innovation mode.

- Build lots of high quality Dutch style bikes lanes
- Metros / Dart upgrades
- Lots more high quality bus corridors
- Much better bus ticketing and Dwell time
- etc. etc.

Non of this is rocket science, we just need to get on with it.

Having said all of that, perhaps the Dial a bus type model would make some sense for the Local Link rural services.

True self driving vehicles will of course radically impact public transport planing. But that isn't something TFL or TFI can really innovate on. They have to wait to see if it happens and then respond by changing public transport to work with it.

AndrewJRenko · 10-08-2020 2:16pm

GT89 wrote: »

It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

ITF did some interesting modelling on replacing ALL private vehicles with shared transport, and reducing the number of vehicles on the road by 98%. Just imagine what we could productively do with all that road space.

https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/shared-mobility-simulations-dublin.pdf

Today’s mobility in the Greater Dublin Area could be delivered with only 2% of the current number of private vehicles. A transport system consisting only of Shared Mobility services and the existing rail and light-rail transit (LRT) could allow this reduction. The total distance driven by all vehicles, emissions and congestion would be reduced by 38%, 31%, and by 37% respectively.

Peregrine · 07-09-2020 12:14am

The tender for account based ticketing was just published there.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/172673/0/0?returnUrl=&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

The Authority intends to procure a nationwide multi-modal Account Based Ticketing (ABT) system supporting both public and private operated transport services, with the eventual aim of enabling the provision of Mobility as a Service 'MaaS' type offerings. The solution is expected to include the delivery of a fully functioning and fit for purpose ABT back office system including all necessary equipment, hosting, software, services and supporting systems. The solution is also expected to include the supply, configuration, installation and maintenance of all fare collection equipment for all Public Transport Operators, capable of accepting and validating contactless back cards (as well as mobile phone based), QR Codes, Transport for Ireland (TFI) Leap Cards, Free Travel Cards, secure tokens and other forms of payment.

p_haugh · 07-09-2020 11:21am

Peregrine wrote: »

The tender for account based ticketing was just published there.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/172673/0/0?returnUrl=&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Potential implementation plan (possibly outdated however)
https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1302650351829557249?s=19

bk · 07-09-2020 2:08pm

Delighted to hear this is starting to go ahead.

Horrified to see that they will be keeping the old TGX ticket machines until the last phase (probably more then 7 years).

Having said that, I get the impression from the pictures, that the new card readers will actually be doing the processing themselves and won't be relying on the TGX for actual processing in the manner that the current reader relies on the TGX for it's processing. So maybe not a big deal.

Delighted to see contactless bank card + mobile payments + 90 minute fare in first phase.

Hopefully Phase 1 to Phase 2b will be quick, because I can see it causing confusion, folks with Leap cards, trying them on the new readers or folks with bank cards trying them on the old readers. Actually I'd think it would be better if they just jumped straight to Phase 2b. Skip 1 and 2.

Good to see that they plan on also phasing out cash and eventually driver interaction.

I'm not sure what the benefit of adding QR codes and barcodes is. That sounds like it would slow things WAY down IMO.

Of course, they make some sense for Commuter and Intercity services, but I don't think it makes sense for city services.

BTW They seem to be missing Phase 4. Oh and I assume the short fare will disappear with cash at Phase 3a or maybe Phase 5. You can't ask for a short fare if you don't interact with a driver.

Peregrine · 07-09-2020 10:56pm

Mr.S wrote: »

Would there be a timeframe for Phase 1 rollout?

I was told 2021 for Phase 1/90 min fare. Probably towards the end but before the first phase of Network Redesign which is also supposed to be in 2021.

GT89 · 07-09-2020 11:14pm

bk wrote: »

Delighted to hear this is starting to go ahead.

Horrified to see that they will be keeping the old TGX ticket machines until the last phase (probably more then 7 years).

Having said that, I get the impression from the pictures, that the new card readers will actually be doing the processing themselves and won't be relying on the TGX for actual processing in the manner that the current reader relies on the TGX for it's processing. So maybe not a big deal.

Delighted to see contactless bank card + mobile payments + 90 minute fare in first phase.

Hopefully Phase 1 to Phase 2b will be quick, because I can see it causing confusion, folks with Leap cards, trying them on the new readers or folks with bank cards trying them on the old readers. Actually I'd think it would be better if they just jumped straight to Phase 2b. Skip 1 and 2.

Good to see that they plan on also phasing out cash and eventually driver interaction.

I'm not sure what the benefit of adding QR codes and barcodes is. That sounds like it would slow things WAY down IMO.

Of course, they make some sense for Commuter and Intercity services, but I don't think it makes sense for city services.

BTW They seem to be missing Phase 4. Oh and I assume the short fare will disappear with cash at Phase 3a or maybe Phase 5. You can't ask for a short fare if you don't interact with a driver.

Yep I would have thought the new validators would be able to process themselves and not going through the Wayfarer. It's the same I imagine on the London buses I think the oyster/contactless validator is separate from the ticket machine as they use an even more outdated wayfarer than ours.

I'm guessing their planning to use these ticket machines on city/town services in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford etc. too which would be very helpful as dwell times in these places is even worse than Dublin.

I would also wonder will these be implemented on longer distance BE and GAI commuter/rural routes and any other PSO service such as the likes of Local Link and the 139 and 197 type routes. Perhaps for these something like Ticketer would be more suitable.

goingnowhere · 08-09-2020 9:49am

Irish Rail has been testing barcodes/QR code tickets since 2019 and is pretty ready to roll nationally

bk · 08-09-2020 10:01am

GT89 wrote: »

I'm guessing their planning to use these ticket machines on city/town services in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford etc. too which would be very helpful as dwell times in these places is even worse than Dublin.

Oh definitely a T90 ticket and a right hand validator would be a MASSIVE help on Cork City services (and probably the other cities, I've just never used them).

Cork City is far slower then even Dublin bus at the moment, due to the lack of right hand validator, always needing to interact with the driver, even though it is a flat fare and it seemingly takes multiple button clicks. Very slow.

I wonder might they actually roll it out in Cork first. As a trial ahead of Dublin. They have trialled other things down in Cork like bus stops, etc. before rolling them out in Dublin. Big enough for a decent sized trial, but not as big a jump as Dublin. Iron out any issues there first.

GT89 wrote: »

I would also wonder will these be implemented on longer distance BE and GAI commuter/rural routes and any other PSO service such as the likes of Local Link and the 139 and 197 type routes. Perhaps for these something like Ticketer would be more suitable.

Yes, I'd assume that is what the QR and barcode compatibility is for.

I believe the NTA are currently trialling a new Mobile Ticket App, where you can buy a ticket for commuter services like these on your phone and then show the driver the ticket on your phone as you board:

https://www.thejournal.ie/nta-mobile-ticketing-app-5169192-Aug2020/

I'd assume that in future, the idea is that you just have the reader scan the QR code on the phone as you board rather then show the driver.

bk · 08-09-2020 10:03am

goingnowhere wrote: »

Irish Rail has been testing barcodes/QR code tickets since 2019 and is pretty ready to roll nationally

Curios, do ticket checkers just look at the ticket? Or do they use another device to scan the QR code or enter the barcode on their own device?

goingnowhere · 08-09-2020 12:00pm

There is a portable device being rolled out as part of the new ticketing system. But in theory any phone with the 'app' would surfice

There is funding sought to add a barcode reader to the turnstiles at key stations

GT89 · 08-09-2020 12:31pm

bk wrote: »

Curios, do ticket checkers just look at the ticket? Or do they use another device to scan the QR code or enter the barcode on their own device?

Also how do you get through the barriers?

devnull · 08-09-2020 6:53pm

GT89 wrote: »

Also how do you get through the barriers?

I assume there is a barcode reader at the barriers.

GT89 · 08-09-2020 7:14pm

devnull wrote: »

I assume there is a barcode reader at the barriers.

Haven't noticed them in Connolly been a while since I was in Hueston so could have them there.

antimatterx · 08-09-2020 9:15pm

I wonder what will happen in the scenario where tickets are on phones, and the phone dies.

91wx763 · 08-09-2020 9:43pm

bk wrote: »

Curios, do ticket checkers just look at the ticket? Or do they use another device to scan the QR code or enter the barcode on their own device?

In the UK the checkers have an android app called "CLIPPER", the aztec/QR codes need to be marked as used otherwise you could use a return portion multiple times unless it's been through a turnstile/barrier. See here and down the page, I was surprised to find this through a google.... https://support.gwtrains.co.uk/guides-and-documentation/mdg/applications

91wx763 · 08-09-2020 9:45pm

antimatterx wrote: »

I wonder what will happen in the scenario where tickets are on phones, and the phone dies.

Deemed as no ticket is held. New ticket or fine.

antimatterx · 08-09-2020 9:56pm

91wx763 wrote: »

Deemed as no ticket is held. New ticket or fine.

Something better than that will have to be conceived. That's not good enough imo, and it's going to happen.

91wx763 · 08-09-2020 10:24pm

antimatterx wrote: »

Something better than that will have to be conceived. That's not good enough imo, and it's going to happen.

In the UK they make it abundantly clear that your device must be able to show the ticket at all times. The system has even evolved that you now don't need a data connection to view/show an M ticketas long as your ticket was downloaded once. Power banks are easily available and very compact.

GT89 · 08-09-2020 11:03pm

antimatterx wrote: »

Something better than that will have to be conceived. That's not good enough imo, and it's going to happen.

How's that any different to an e-boarding pass if phone is uncharged don't get on flight simple as same with trains. People need to take personal responsibility and ensure their phone is charge or buy a regular ticket or print out.

bk · 09-09-2020 9:45am

I'm not sure if they will use it for this purpose, might not work for the commuter/intercity case, but possibly for the city case.

Apple has a feature on iPhones where if you have a travel card (like Leap/Oyster card) on your phone, you can continue to use it even after the battery dies. The phone reserves a small amount of battery power so that the card continues to work for a couple of hours after the phone battery dies.

Very interesting overview of how it works in London here:
https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-pay/transport/

I hope Leap supports this.

MJohnston · 09-09-2020 10:49am

GT89 wrote: »

Also how do you get through the barriers?

I used MuniMobile in San Francisco before, which is essentially the same idea. There you just showed the 'ticket' on your phone to the barrier attendant.

It was a really stupid system imo (leaving the station barriers you needed to attract their attention as they usually face the opposite direction), so hopefully NTA are thinking of something more reliable and automatic.

MOH · 09-09-2020 10:58am

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is a portable device being rolled out as part of the new ticketing system. But in theory any phone with the 'app' would surfice

There is funding sought to add a barcode reader to the turnstiles at key stations

Given that one of their excuses for seat reservations frequently not working is data connection issues, would that not pose a similar issue for any such devices?
If the wifi goes then so does the ability to check tickets?

Why is there no digital leap card for digital wallets

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