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Why is there no digital leap card for digital wallets

  • 04-07-2020 8:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭ antimatterx
    Registered User


    Hi
    I'm wondering why there isn't a leap card avaliable for Apple/Google wallets.

    It's 2020, this technology isn't exactly complicated and we still have to carry physical cards. It would be nice to drop wallets completely.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭ AngryLips
    Registered User


    I too look forward to having a wallet that's completely dependent on my phone's battery life.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭ gailforecast
    Banned


    Hi
    I'm wondering why there isn't a leap card avaliable for Apple/Google wallets.

    It's 2020, this technology isn't exactly complicated and we still have to carry physical cards. It would be nice to drop wallets completely.

    Because both Android and Apple are notoriously secure about NFC usage. This is also the reason why there’s no top up app for IPhone.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,315 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dravokivich
    Category Moderator


    Because both Android and Apple are notoriously secure about NFC usage. This is also the reason why there’s no top up app for IPhone.

    No, the issue with no app on the iPhone was a due to Apple locking it out 3rd party apps.

    OP, there is something in the works on it. An article was up on the journal sometime ago mentioning it. But just because the technology "exists" doesn't mean it's a simple transition into it. Especially when money is directly affected by it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,516 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu
    Registered User


    they're planning to allow you to pay by tapping your debit/credit card. Once that's available presumably Apple/Google Pay will also work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,883 ✭✭✭ markpb
    Registered User


    Hi
    I'm wondering why there isn't a leap card avaliable for Apple/Google wallets.

    It's 2020, this technology isn't exactly complicated and we still have to carry physical cards. It would be nice to drop wallets completely.

    You could definitely do this on Apple because the SE exists but Apple won't let you. You could do this on Android but you wouldn't because there's no SE and HCE is a fudge. The technology only seems simple if you're not aware of the complexity or if you don't care about security.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk
    Moderator


    AngryLips wrote: »
    I too look forward to having a wallet that's completely dependent on my phone's battery life.

    Apple actually has a good solution to this. When your phone battery runs out, it actually still has some battery life left, which allows your travel card to be used for many hours after:

    https://atadistance.net/2018/10/24/apple-pay-suica-express-cards-with-power-reserve-on-iphone-xr-and-iphone-xs/


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,527 ✭✭✭ Dodge
    Registered User


    AngryLips wrote: »
    I too look forward to having a wallet that's completely dependent on my phone's battery life.

    I don’t get the problem here? Don’t see anybody suggesting that *only* digital solutions are available.

    Would having an option of either physical or digital (and cash fares) not be a help to some customers?


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox
    Moderator


    The NTA have started tendering for their new program, the "Next Generation Ticketing" project. As part of this, Apple Pay and Android Pay are to be supported.

    This will also herald the end of cash fares, reducing the dwell time on services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭ antimatterx
    Registered User


    CatInABox wrote: »
    The NTA have started tendering for their new program, the "Next Generation Ticketing" project. As part of this, Apple Pay and Android Pay are to be supported.

    This will also herald the end of cash fares, reducing the dwell time on services.

    Intersting. Do they have an estimated time for completion of this project?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,883 ✭✭✭ markpb
    Registered User


    Intersting. Do they have an estimated time for completion of this project?

    No. Don't expect it for years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭ gourcuff
    Registered User


    google pay have this for a few cities like melbourne, the myki card is available like your debit card in google pay under Passes, would be great if Leap got added


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk
    Moderator


    gourcuff wrote: »
    google pay have this for a few cities like melbourne, the myki card is available like your debit card in google pay under Passes, would be great if Leap got added

    The better option is for the "Leap Project" to support standard EMV contactless payments.

    The benefit is that any debit or credit card, Apple Pay/Google Pay/Samsung Pay, etc. will just work, with no setup or registration required with Leap.

    That means any tourist arriving in Ireland can just use their existing card when they step off the plane with zero setup.

    That would be a much more frictionless solution and it is how it works in London.

    The only downside, is that is won't work for monthly/annual tickets, free travel pass, etc. For that, they need to support Apple Express Transit and equivalent on Android.

    Ideally they will do both.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭ dfx-
    Moderator


    Dodge wrote: »
    I don’t get the problem here? Don’t see anybody suggesting that *only* digital solutions are available.

    Would having an option of either physical or digital (and cash fares) not be a help to some customers?

    Digital solutions are available here in Birmingham for years as well as paying cash. An app, contactless and cash. A key part is having a flat fare.

    For some reason in Dublin, this seems to be seen as a way of phasing out cash payments in particular than just giving another option...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭ goingnowhere
    Registered User


    Once Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann finally joins the 21st century with bus ticketing equipment which isn't powered by a computer last seen in the 1980's payment by contactless EMV will be possible.

    The Irish Rail/Luas kit shouldn't need to be replaced.

    It is not commonly known by London completely replaced Oyster a few years ago, all the readers, back office everything was replaced to something which is technology wise similar to ours, this addressed some security issues and also provided a path to EMV.

    7 day capping would be possible on the EMV


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,883 ✭✭✭ markpb
    Registered User


    bk wrote: »
    The only downside, is that is won't work for monthly/annual tickets, free travel pass, etc. For that, they need to support Apple Express Transit and equivalent on Android.

    The way EMV works in transport allows TfL to apply daily and weekly caps so I don't think there's a technical reason why you couldn't attach a monthly or annual ticket to a debit card. You shouldn't need ATE to support that. There might be a commercial reason for TfL not doing it though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭ Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!


    loyatemu wrote: »
    they're planning to allow you to pay by tapping your debit/credit card. Once that's available presumably Apple/Google Pay will also work.

    You'll still have to tell the driver where you're going to pay the correct date.

    Flat fares please!! For example, €3.50 for two hours of bus usage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick
    Registered User


    CatInABox wrote: »
    The NTA have started tendering for their new program, the "Next Generation Ticketing" project. As part of this, Apple Pay and Android Pay are to be supported.

    This will also herald the end of cash fares, reducing the dwell time on services.

    When I was getting the 33x at the Custom House, *Everybody* paid by card, and it still took 4-5 minutes to load up the full bus. Cash fares are not the reason for long dwell times.
    If you have a season ticket you still need an id card, whether your phone has a ticket it or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭ yer man!
    Registered User


    Time frame to implementation of next generation ticketing is up to 2027

    https://www.thejournal.ie/cashless-payments-on-public-transport-4897407-Nov2019/

    Will be a while yet.....


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox
    Moderator


    When I was getting the 33x at the Custom House, *Everybody* paid by card, and it still took 4-5 minutes to load up the full bus. Cash fares are not the reason for long dwell times.
    If you have a season ticket you still need an id card, whether your phone has a ticket it or not.

    It kinda still is. Apparently the current machines have to be set to be ready to take a cash fare first, which slows down the read of any card used.

    As part of BusConnects/NGT, they'll be moving to two fares, a short hop fare for 3 or 4 stages, and a flat 90 minute fare. The 90 minute fare will allow you to move between types of public transport without being charged again.

    All this taken together will decrease dwell times by a good amount.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭ antimatterx
    Registered User


    yer man! wrote: »
    Time frame to implementation of next generation ticketing is up to 2027

    https://www.thejournal.ie/cashless-payments-on-public-transport-4897407-Nov2019/

    Will be a while yet.....

    That's shockingly ineffecient


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭ AngryLips
    Registered User


    CatInABox wrote: »
    It kinda still is. Apparently the current machines have to be set to be ready to take a cash fare first, which slows down the read of any card used.

    As part of BusConnects/NGT, they'll be moving to two fares, a short hop fare for 3 or 4 stages, and a flat 90 minute fare. The 90 minute fare will allow you to move between types of public transport without being charged again.

    All this taken together will decrease dwell times by a good amount.


    Hopefully a two fare system will remove the need for driver interaction: go to the left validator for the short fare, right validator for the flat fare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭ yer man!
    Registered User


    I always thought that that Dublin Bus would be better off with a flat fare and making good use of the validator on board already. Pick a fare around 2.50 and allow everyone tap and get on as quickly as possible. I remember the first time I ever got the bus and was so confused seeing everyone get on and mumble what seemed like random numbers to the driver like some procession.


  • Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭ Rulmeq
    Registered User


    CatInABox wrote: »
    It kinda still is. Apparently the current machines have to be set to be ready to take a cash fare first, which slows down the read of any card used.


    Do you know why they don't just allow tap-on and tap-off like they do on the Luas? Is it that the GPS on the bus isn't reliable enough to know where you are or, are there other reasons?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 5,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sheep Shagger
    Moderator


    That's shockingly ineffecient

    Stop bashing the public service lol


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭ Idleater
    Registered User


    Rulmeq wrote: »
    Do you know why they don't just allow tap-on and tap-off like they do on the Luas? Is it that the GPS on the bus isn't reliable enough to know where you are or, are there other reasons?

    I think I read/heard the scanner/reader model doesn't have enough memory or CPU or something.

    Not 100% on that info but I remember going hmmmm in the discussion.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk
    Moderator


    dfx- wrote: »
    For some reason in Dublin, this seems to be seen as a way of phasing out cash payments in particular than just giving another option...

    If they follow London's example (which they should), then you eliminate cash.

    Your options then are a Leap card (can be unregistered/private) or contactless payment. That is how it is in London. Cash is too slow and has various cash handling issues.
    7 day capping would be possible on the EMV
    markpb wrote: »
    The way EMV works in transport allows TfL to apply daily and weekly caps so I don't think there's a technical reason why you couldn't attach a monthly or annual ticket to a debit card. You shouldn't need ATE to support that. There might be a commercial reason for TfL not doing it though.

    Yep, I'm aware of that. Though it is a bit more complicated then that and has some gothcha's

    This isn't actually linked to your debit card number, Apple Pay never sends your debit card number, instead it sends tokenized data.

    So lets you have a contactless debit card and you register it with Apple pay and have both an iPhone and Apple Watch. Well all three of those are considered unique devices.

    So if you use the debit card the first day, apple watch the day after and iphone the day after that, you now have three separate weekly caps.

    This can also be an issue for tag-off, you need to use the same device to tag-off as you tagged-on, even if they are the same debit card behind them.

    It might be possible to register a debit card or one of those devices with your Leap account to be your monthly/annual/free travel pass. However the leap app would need to be able to access that unique device data and off the top of my head, I'm not sure if that is possible, I'd have to check the API's. Could be possible, but not simple.
    When I was getting the 33x at the Custom House, *Everybody* paid by card, and it still took 4-5 minutes to load up the full bus. Cash fares are not the reason for long dwell times.
    If you have a season ticket you still need an id card, whether your phone has a ticket it or not.

    You need the combination of card + flat fare + zero driver interaction (right hand validator) + probably new ticket machines, to really get the benefit.

    I've told this story before, but probably worth repeating. I'm on a bus and I see that the approaching bus stop has about 30 Spanish students. I think we are going to be here all day! But nope, I watch in amazement as they all quickly bored and tag-on at the right hand validator. Just a stream of beeps, barely stopping in their stride to tag on. Very quick.

    There was also about 4 or 5 local's paying by cash or leap via the driver. They took longer to board then the 30 students!!!!

    With the right setup, you definitely get improvements in boarding time.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk
    Moderator


    Rulmeq wrote: »
    Do you know why they don't just allow tap-on and tap-off like they do on the Luas? Is it that the GPS on the bus isn't reliable enough to know where you are or, are there other reasons?

    They have had this sort of tap-off on buses in Amsterdam for more then 10 years now.

    It isn't a GPS issue.

    I'd say the issue with this for us, is that not all buses are dual door yet and even when they are, lots of folks still use the front door for a variety of reasons.

    For this to work well, you really need to have it so it is:
    - Enter via front door, tag-on there
    - Always Exit via the rear door, optionally tag-off there.

    This is how it works in Amsterdam.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭ GT89
    Banned


    bk wrote: »
    They have had this sort of tap-off on buses in Amsterdam for more then 10 years now.

    It isn't a GPS issue.

    I'd say the issue with this for us, is that not all buses are dual door yet and even when they are, lots of folks still use the front door for a variety of reasons.

    For this to work well, you really need to have it so it is:
    - Enter via front door, tag-on there
    - Always Exit via the rear door, optionally tag-off there.

    This is how it works in Amsterdam.

    I think though the issue with tag on tag off is that it may slow down passengers getting off the bus instead of a steady flow of people getting off there will be some rooting around for their leap or contactless card in their bag/wallet whilst getting off. Also if drivers aren't attentive to it some may end up mussing their stop if the doors close before or whilst tagging off. It would be quite messy.

    Obivously it works perfectly on the Luas where the tagging on/off is done at the stop rather than on board.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭ goingnowhere
    Registered User


    All centre door busses in the Dublin Bus/Go Ahead fleets are wired for readers at the exit doors

    Provide two at the front, one left and right, two on the centre doors, one left, one right. Should work fine. The current on bus equipment is painfully slow to read cards, new gear should address that

    But in all this its amazing the Germans don't do any of this rubbish, buy ticket on app or machine, stamp it and off you go. Amazing, need ZERO infrastructure, no NFC, no hassle with Apple etc. Just pay via the app


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,315 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dravokivich
    Category Moderator


    There's actually actually a simpler answer around no tag on/off with buses. I'd heard comments that when doing research on implementations in other countries, it was noted that bus services with tag on/off had higher fare evasion due to people tagging off right after they tagged on. An honour system like that won't work out too well here when you've already got a high amount of adults trying to get away with using child cards.

    There had even been people who previously taunted Dublin Bus Inspectors over twitter about using their child tickets years ago.
    GT89 wrote: »
    I think though the issue with tag on tag off is that it may slow down passengers getting off the bus instead of a steady flow of people getting off there will be some rooting around for their leap or contactless card in their bag/wallet whilst getting off. Also if drivers aren't attentive to it some may end up mussing their stop if the doors close before or whilst tagging off. It would be quite messy.

    Obivously it works perfectly on the Luas where the tagging on/off is done at the stop rather than on board.

    It's only done because there'll be no rebate otherwise. Until Irish Rail left gates open on their stations, tagging off would have been the only way out from a number of them.


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