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Why is there no digital leap card for digital wallets

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    #62
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    With NTA pursuing contactless Debit Cards, what ever is done with that, should lead into opportunities for the other stuff there.


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    #63
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    With NTA pursuing contactless Debit Cards, what ever is done with that, should lead into opportunities for the other stuff there.

    Yes I think the ideal would be the following:

    1) Contactless cards + contacless mobile payment (Apple Pay, etc.) for pay as you go option, including daily and weekly capping.

    The advantage being that it requires zero setup, just use what you already have and great for tourists arriving off a plane.

    2) Allow you the option to store your leap card in Apple/Google Wallet. This would be very useful for other users, e.g. Free Travel Pass, Child Leap Card (discount), Monthly/Annual Taxsaver tickets, various mutli-trip tickets.

    Of course the physical leap card should remain an option for both type of users who prefer that.


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    #64
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Somewhat relevant to this thread, TFI are currently trialling a ticketing app called TFI Go on the 133. Adult & student 10 journey tickets can be bought and it works like the ticketing app found in Edinburgh, in that you activate the ticket before showing the phone to the driver. See here for more info: https://www.transportforireland.ie/tfi-go-app/
    (photo taken from a FB group)


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    #65
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    YellowBucket wrote: »
    Main reason is the technology has marched on very, very quickly and transit systems have a lot of expensive technology in terms of card readers and systems behind them.

    Leap was planned well over a decade ago and was state of the art at the time.

    We’ve gone from a situation where most people didn’t have useful debit cards / credit cards and to one where in a short space of time the banks moved to EMV and contactless

    I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.


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    #66
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

    The biggest problem with accepting contactless payment on-board buses is the fact that the equipment on said buses is based on very outdated technology that can barely cope with current functionality, let alone anything more.

    This current machines include a processor that was first developed in 1985 and has just 1 Mbytes RAM and 1 Mbytes flash storage which has to include the operating system, software and any transaction data data. It's simply impossible to provide the functionality you desire without replacing all the bus ticket machines.


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    #67
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

    You don't want to be on the forefront of technology. I don't think Leap ever claimed to be "State of the Art" ?

    Ticketing was the main issue that needed to be addressed (the actual product that gets you from A to B), not the medium to validate it (the slip of paper in your hand), which Leap was just brought in to replace. And hasn't really done anything more since.

    For example, ramblers/period/return tickets should be done away with and fare caps should be regional town/city based, as opposed to Operator based and just available in Dublin. But no, a 90 minute ticket will do (*cough* T90), which is just a rehash of the Leap90 feature, which only came in because the Transfer90 ticket for Dublin Bus was discontinued.


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    #68
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    devnull wrote: »
    The biggest problem with accepting contactless payment on-board buses is the fact that the equipment on said buses is based on very outdated technology that can barely cope with current functionality, let alone anything more.

    This current machines include a processor that was first developed in 1985 and has just 1 Mbytes RAM and 1 Mbytes flash storage which has to include the operating system, software and any transaction data data. It's simply impossible to provide the functionality you desire without replacing all the bus ticket machines.

    Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.


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    #69
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    GT89 wrote: »
    Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

    The barriers might be newer but they wouldn't come with EMV compatible/certified hardware unless it was originally specified when they were bought. Leapcard requires contactless hardware but not EMV hardware (which could be more expensive). The readers can usually be swapped out fairly easily but that's only half the battle. Unless the barrier knows how much to charge you, it now needs to be connected to a back-end system that can match your entry event with your exit event, work out how much to charge and authorise that amount. That back-end system won't be the Leapcard system because they're completely different.


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    #70
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    GT89 wrote: »
    Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

    I wouldn't be so sure. For example the validators at Irish Rail ticket gates, are set for tag on / tag off at a hardware level. IE: If you get stuck at the front of the gate, after you've tagged on, you've no means to tag off. Unless someone is willing to do it for you on the other side.

    While changing payment method may not be difficult, there's already something that's been set on the device, which would lessen confidence in what it can do. Would you pass over a debit card, phone, or watch, for someone to help you with that, if you get stuck?


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    #71
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    It would probably be cheaper to just rebuild it with a new system overlaying the old one until it were rolled out. Trying to repurpose old tech, especially IT systems is usually pointless.

    You could easily retain backward compatibility with existing Leap Cards on new tech, but the reader hardware would likely need to go.

    You could also potentially push it into the cloud & make more use of people’s mobiles by doing the ticketing in the apps with tagging on being done with beacons using NFC or (QR codes displayed around every stop & verify with your GPS coordinates).

    Payment would just be entirely virtual and held in a central database. Season tickets / passes would just be held on the phone and you’d only sport check them.

    A system like that would entirely eliminate complicated equipment to update and maintain. You’d just download an app & use transit.

    Those not using the app could probably just stick with a bog standard leap card, but 98% of the adult population has a smartphone so it’s a bit stupid to be stuck in 1990s smart card thinking on this.

    Also using EMV brings in skimming risks and processing financial data all over the network.


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    #72
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW Some interesting news from the NTA meeting minutes in the last month or two.

    Seemingly they have signed a contract for the development of an app for the iPhone that allows you to top up Leap cards using NFC, similar to what you can already do using the Android app.

    While iPhones have long had NFC support (Apple Pay uses it), until recently Apple didn't allow it to be used by third party apps. Apple have now changed that and are now allowing at least some limited access to NFC for Third party apps, so looks like the NTA will make use of this for leap now.

    Good news. Obviously this is not the Next Generation Ticketing, that still seems to be years off, but at least something for the short term.

    In other news, the minutes also seem to suggest that the existing ticket machines are end of life and that they will need to be replaced, hallelujah.

    But in less good news, the Next Generation Ticketing project still sounds like it is only in the early stage and they are saying it will take 20 years to fully rollout!!!!!!!


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    #73
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    uber for buses in Sevenoaks, while we are still persevering with WayFarers and physical cards. It shows places are moving beyond cards and contactless.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ddExZbKD8

    And yet still managing to offer a pay cash option....


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    #74
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    dfx- wrote: »
    uber for buses in Sevenoaks, while we are still persevering with WayFarers and physical cards. It shows places are moving beyond cards and contactless.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ddExZbKD8

    And yet still managing to offer a pay cash option....

    It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.


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    #75
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GT89 wrote: »
    It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

    There's been a lot of operators who have tried it in the UK over the last year and generally it hasn't been very successful - most of the schemes closed.


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    #76
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Even in the video, the General Manager for go2 says that realistically the DRT service will only work properly when complimented with actual set routes.


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    #77
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Official word from the NTA on the new mobile ticketing app here: https://www.thejournal.ie/nta-mobile-ticketing-app-5169192-Aug2020/?utm_source=shortlink


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    #78
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Going from somewhere that uses an app to physical cards, NFC or even contactless feels like going back to the dark ages.
    p_haugh wrote: »
    Even in the video, the General Manager for go2 says that realistically the DRT service will only work properly when complimented with actual set routes.

    Absolutely and it wouldn't be a solution for the size of network and passenger numbers of Dublin, but at least people are thinking beyond whatever TfL does and replacing Leap by 2027.


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    #79
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dfx- wrote: »
    Absolutely and it wouldn't be a solution for the size of network and passenger numbers of Dublin, but at least people are thinking beyond whatever TfL does and replacing Leap by 2027.

    To be honest, we shouldn't be thinking beyond, we should just be focusing on implementing what has already proven to work extremely well in other mid sized European cities.

    We are very much in catch up mode and not in innovation mode.

    - Build lots of high quality Dutch style bikes lanes
    - Metros / Dart upgrades
    - Lots more high quality bus corridors
    - Much better bus ticketing and Dwell time
    - etc. etc.

    Non of this is rocket science, we just need to get on with it.

    Having said all of that, perhaps the Dial a bus type model would make some sense for the Local Link rural services.

    True self driving vehicles will of course radically impact public transport planing. But that isn't something TFL or TFI can really innovate on. They have to wait to see if it happens and then respond by changing public transport to work with it.


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    #80
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,412 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    GT89 wrote: »
    It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

    ITF did some interesting modelling on replacing ALL private vehicles with shared transport, and reducing the number of vehicles on the road by 98%. Just imagine what we could productively do with all that road space.

    https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/shared-mobility-simulations-dublin.pdf
    Today’s mobility in the Greater Dublin Area could be delivered with only 2% of the current number of private vehicles. A transport system consisting only of Shared Mobility services and the existing rail and light-rail transit (LRT) could allow this reduction. The total distance driven by all vehicles, emissions and congestion would be reduced by 38%, 31%, and by 37% respectively.


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    #81
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    The tender for account based ticketing was just published there.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/172673/0/0?returnUrl=&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE
    The Authority intends to procure a nationwide multi-modal Account Based Ticketing (ABT) system supporting both public and private operated transport services, with the eventual aim of enabling the provision of Mobility as a Service 'MaaS' type offerings. The solution is expected to include the delivery of a fully functioning and fit for purpose ABT back office system including all necessary equipment, hosting, software, services and supporting systems. The solution is also expected to include the supply, configuration, installation and maintenance of all fare collection equipment for all Public Transport Operators, capable of accepting and validating contactless back cards (as well as mobile phone based), QR Codes, Transport for Ireland (TFI) Leap Cards, Free Travel Cards, secure tokens and other forms of payment.


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    #82
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Peregrine wrote: »
    The tender for account based ticketing was just published there.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/172673/0/0?returnUrl=&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

    Potential implementation plan (possibly outdated however)
    https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1302650351829557249?s=19


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    #83
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Delighted to hear this is starting to go ahead.

    Horrified to see that they will be keeping the old TGX ticket machines until the last phase (probably more then 7 years).

    Having said that, I get the impression from the pictures, that the new card readers will actually be doing the processing themselves and won't be relying on the TGX for actual processing in the manner that the current reader relies on the TGX for it's processing. So maybe not a big deal.

    Delighted to see contactless bank card + mobile payments + 90 minute fare in first phase.

    Hopefully Phase 1 to Phase 2b will be quick, because I can see it causing confusion, folks with Leap cards, trying them on the new readers or folks with bank cards trying them on the old readers. Actually I'd think it would be better if they just jumped straight to Phase 2b. Skip 1 and 2.

    Good to see that they plan on also phasing out cash and eventually driver interaction.

    I'm not sure what the benefit of adding QR codes and barcodes is. That sounds like it would slow things WAY down IMO.

    Of course, they make some sense for Commuter and Intercity services, but I don't think it makes sense for city services.

    BTW They seem to be missing Phase 4. Oh and I assume the short fare will disappear with cash at Phase 3a or maybe Phase 5. You can't ask for a short fare if you don't interact with a driver.


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    #84
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Mr.S wrote: »
    Would there be a timeframe for Phase 1 rollout?

    I was told 2021 for Phase 1/90 min fare. Probably towards the end but before the first phase of Network Redesign which is also supposed to be in 2021.


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    #85
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    bk wrote: »
    Delighted to hear this is starting to go ahead.

    Horrified to see that they will be keeping the old TGX ticket machines until the last phase (probably more then 7 years).

    Having said that, I get the impression from the pictures, that the new card readers will actually be doing the processing themselves and won't be relying on the TGX for actual processing in the manner that the current reader relies on the TGX for it's processing. So maybe not a big deal.

    Delighted to see contactless bank card + mobile payments + 90 minute fare in first phase.

    Hopefully Phase 1 to Phase 2b will be quick, because I can see it causing confusion, folks with Leap cards, trying them on the new readers or folks with bank cards trying them on the old readers. Actually I'd think it would be better if they just jumped straight to Phase 2b. Skip 1 and 2.

    Good to see that they plan on also phasing out cash and eventually driver interaction.

    I'm not sure what the benefit of adding QR codes and barcodes is. That sounds like it would slow things WAY down IMO.

    Of course, they make some sense for Commuter and Intercity services, but I don't think it makes sense for city services.

    BTW They seem to be missing Phase 4. Oh and I assume the short fare will disappear with cash at Phase 3a or maybe Phase 5. You can't ask for a short fare if you don't interact with a driver.

    Yep I would have thought the new validators would be able to process themselves and not going through the Wayfarer. It's the same I imagine on the London buses I think the oyster/contactless validator is separate from the ticket machine as they use an even more outdated wayfarer than ours.

    I'm guessing their planning to use these ticket machines on city/town services in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford etc. too which would be very helpful as dwell times in these places is even worse than Dublin.

    I would also wonder will these be implemented on longer distance BE and GAI commuter/rural routes and any other PSO service such as the likes of Local Link and the 139 and 197 type routes. Perhaps for these something like Ticketer would be more suitable.


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    #86
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Irish Rail has been testing barcodes/QR code tickets since 2019 and is pretty ready to roll nationally


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    #87
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    GT89 wrote: »
    I'm guessing their planning to use these ticket machines on city/town services in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford etc. too which would be very helpful as dwell times in these places is even worse than Dublin.

    Oh definitely a T90 ticket and a right hand validator would be a MASSIVE help on Cork City services (and probably the other cities, I've just never used them).

    Cork City is far slower then even Dublin bus at the moment, due to the lack of right hand validator, always needing to interact with the driver, even though it is a flat fare and it seemingly takes multiple button clicks. Very slow.

    I wonder might they actually roll it out in Cork first. As a trial ahead of Dublin. They have trialled other things down in Cork like bus stops, etc. before rolling them out in Dublin. Big enough for a decent sized trial, but not as big a jump as Dublin. Iron out any issues there first.
    GT89 wrote: »
    I would also wonder will these be implemented on longer distance BE and GAI commuter/rural routes and any other PSO service such as the likes of Local Link and the 139 and 197 type routes. Perhaps for these something like Ticketer would be more suitable.

    Yes, I'd assume that is what the QR and barcode compatibility is for.

    I believe the NTA are currently trialling a new Mobile Ticket App, where you can buy a ticket for commuter services like these on your phone and then show the driver the ticket on your phone as you board:

    https://www.thejournal.ie/nta-mobile-ticketing-app-5169192-Aug2020/

    I'd assume that in future, the idea is that you just have the reader scan the QR code on the phone as you board rather then show the driver.


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    #88
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Irish Rail has been testing barcodes/QR code tickets since 2019 and is pretty ready to roll nationally

    Curios, do ticket checkers just look at the ticket? Or do they use another device to scan the QR code or enter the barcode on their own device?


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    #89
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    There is a portable device being rolled out as part of the new ticketing system. But in theory any phone with the 'app' would surfice

    There is funding sought to add a barcode reader to the turnstiles at key stations


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    #90
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    bk wrote: »
    Curios, do ticket checkers just look at the ticket? Or do they use another device to scan the QR code or enter the barcode on their own device?

    Also how do you get through the barriers?


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    #91
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GT89 wrote: »
    Also how do you get through the barriers?

    I assume there is a barcode reader at the barriers.


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