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Why is there no digital leap card for digital wallets

antimatterx

Hi
I'm wondering why there isn't a leap card avaliable for Apple/Google wallets.

It's 2020, this technology isn't exactly complicated and we still have to carry physical cards. It would be nice to drop wallets completely.

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[Deleted User]

GT89 wrote: »

It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

ITF did some interesting modelling on replacing ALL private vehicles with shared transport, and reducing the number of vehicles on the road by 98%. Just imagine what we could productively do with all that road space.

https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/shared-mobility-simulations-dublin.pdf

Today’s mobility in the Greater Dublin Area could be delivered with only 2% of the current number of private vehicles. A transport system consisting only of Shared Mobility services and the existing rail and light-rail transit (LRT) could allow this reduction. The total distance driven by all vehicles, emissions and congestion would be reduced by 38%, 31%, and by 37% respectively.

dfx- wrote: »

Absolutely and it wouldn't be a solution for the size of network and passenger numbers of Dublin, but at least people are thinking beyond whatever TfL does and replacing Leap by 2027.

To be honest, we shouldn't be thinking beyond, we should just be focusing on implementing what has already proven to work extremely well in other mid sized European cities.

We are very much in catch up mode and not in innovation mode.

- Build lots of high quality Dutch style bikes lanes
- Metros / Dart upgrades
- Lots more high quality bus corridors
- Much better bus ticketing and Dwell time
- etc. etc.

Non of this is rocket science, we just need to get on with it.

Having said all of that, perhaps the Dial a bus type model would make some sense for the Local Link rural services.

True self driving vehicles will of course radically impact public transport planing. But that isn't something TFL or TFI can really innovate on. They have to wait to see if it happens and then respond by changing public transport to work with it.

dfx-

Going from somewhere that uses an app to physical cards, NFC or even contactless feels like going back to the dark ages.

p_haugh wrote: »

Even in the video, the General Manager for go2 says that realistically the DRT service will only work properly when complimented with actual set routes.

Absolutely and it wouldn't be a solution for the size of network and passenger numbers of Dublin, but at least people are thinking beyond whatever TfL does and replacing Leap by 2027.

p_haugh

Official word from the NTA on the new mobile ticketing app here: https://www.thejournal.ie/nta-mobile-ticketing-app-5169192-Aug2020/?utm_source=shortlink

p_haugh

Even in the video, the General Manager for go2 says that realistically the DRT service will only work properly when complimented with actual set routes.

devnull

GT89 wrote: »

It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

There's been a lot of operators who have tried it in the UK over the last year and generally it hasn't been very successful - most of the schemes closed.

GT89

dfx- wrote: »

uber for buses in Sevenoaks, while we are still persevering with WayFarers and physical cards. It shows places are moving beyond cards and contactless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ddExZbKD8

And yet still managing to offer a pay cash option....

It's called demand responsive transport and it's been around a long time. It's basically a dial a ride service but using an app instead of ringing up. It's not a substitute for fixed route services.

dfx-

uber for buses in Sevenoaks, while we are still persevering with WayFarers and physical cards. It shows places are moving beyond cards and contactless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ddExZbKD8

And yet still managing to offer a pay cash option....

BTW Some interesting news from the NTA meeting minutes in the last month or two.

Seemingly they have signed a contract for the development of an app for the iPhone that allows you to top up Leap cards using NFC, similar to what you can already do using the Android app.

While iPhones have long had NFC support (Apple Pay uses it), until recently Apple didn't allow it to be used by third party apps. Apple have now changed that and are now allowing at least some limited access to NFC for Third party apps, so looks like the NTA will make use of this for leap now.

Good news. Obviously this is not the Next Generation Ticketing, that still seems to be years off, but at least something for the short term.

In other news, the minutes also seem to suggest that the existing ticket machines are end of life and that they will need to be replaced, hallelujah.

But in less good news, the Next Generation Ticketing project still sounds like it is only in the early stage and they are saying it will take 20 years to fully rollout!!!!!!!

YellowBucket

It would probably be cheaper to just rebuild it with a new system overlaying the old one until it were rolled out. Trying to repurpose old tech, especially IT systems is usually pointless.

You could easily retain backward compatibility with existing Leap Cards on new tech, but the reader hardware would likely need to go.

You could also potentially push it into the cloud & make more use of people’s mobiles by doing the ticketing in the apps with tagging on being done with beacons using NFC or (QR codes displayed around every stop & verify with your GPS coordinates).

Payment would just be entirely virtual and held in a central database. Season tickets / passes would just be held on the phone and you’d only sport check them.

A system like that would entirely eliminate complicated equipment to update and maintain. You’d just download an app & use transit.

Those not using the app could probably just stick with a bog standard leap card, but 98% of the adult population has a smartphone so it’s a bit stupid to be stuck in 1990s smart card thinking on this.

Also using EMV brings in skimming risks and processing financial data all over the network.

Dravokivich

GT89 wrote: »

Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

I wouldn't be so sure. For example the validators at Irish Rail ticket gates, are set for tag on / tag off at a hardware level. IE: If you get stuck at the front of the gate, after you've tagged on, you've no means to tag off. Unless someone is willing to do it for you on the other side.

While changing payment method may not be difficult, there's already something that's been set on the device, which would lessen confidence in what it can do. Would you pass over a debit card, phone, or watch, for someone to help you with that, if you get stuck?

markpb

GT89 wrote: »

Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

The barriers might be newer but they wouldn't come with EMV compatible/certified hardware unless it was originally specified when they were bought. Leapcard requires contactless hardware but not EMV hardware (which could be more expensive). The readers can usually be swapped out fairly easily but that's only half the battle. Unless the barrier knows how much to charge you, it now needs to be connected to a back-end system that can match your entry event with your exit event, work out how much to charge and authorise that amount. That back-end system won't be the Leapcard system because they're completely different.

GT89

devnull wrote: »

The biggest problem with accepting contactless payment on-board buses is the fact that the equipment on said buses is based on very outdated technology that can barely cope with current functionality, let alone anything more.

This current machines include a processor that was first developed in 1985 and has just 1 Mbytes RAM and 1 Mbytes flash storage which has to include the operating system, software and any transaction data data. It's simply impossible to provide the functionality you desire without replacing all the bus ticket machines.

Whatever about buses but surely the ticket barriers at Irish rail stations and the validators on Luas platforms would be capable of accepting contactless payments as these would be based on far newer technology.

Dravokivich

Melanchthon wrote: »

I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

You don't want to be on the forefront of technology. I don't think Leap ever claimed to be "State of the Art" ?

Ticketing was the main issue that needed to be addressed (the actual product that gets you from A to

, not the medium to validate it (the slip of paper in your hand), which Leap was just brought in to replace. And hasn't really done anything more since.

For example, ramblers/period/return tickets should be done away with and fare caps should be regional town/city based, as opposed to Operator based and just available in Dublin. But no, a 90 minute ticket will do (*cough* T90), which is just a rehash of the Leap90 feature, which only came in because the Transfer90 ticket for Dublin Bus was discontinued.

devnull

Melanchthon wrote: »

I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

The biggest problem with accepting contactless payment on-board buses is the fact that the equipment on said buses is based on very outdated technology that can barely cope with current functionality, let alone anything more.

This current machines include a processor that was first developed in 1985 and has just 1 Mbytes RAM and 1 Mbytes flash storage which has to include the operating system, software and any transaction data data. It's simply impossible to provide the functionality you desire without replacing all the bus ticket machines.

Melanchthon

YellowBucket wrote: »

Main reason is the technology has marched on very, very quickly and transit systems have a lot of expensive technology in terms of card readers and systems behind them.

Leap was planned well over a decade ago and was state of the art at the time.

We’ve gone from a situation where most people didn’t have useful debit cards / credit cards and to one where in a short space of time the banks moved to EMV and contactless

I don't think this is true , how was Leap state of the art at the time when it was a bit limited for its first year or two at least and in London they had contactless debit card payment on busses a year later. Leap brought in 2011 and limited to "cash" fares, TFL had contactless payment on busses in 2012 and the Oyster card was introduced in 2003 8 whole years before Leap.

p_haugh

Somewhat relevant to this thread, TFI are currently trialling a ticketing app called TFI Go on the 133. Adult & student 10 journey tickets can be bought and it works like the ticketing app found in Edinburgh, in that you activate the ticket before showing the phone to the driver. See here for more info: https://www.transportforireland.ie/tfi-go-app/
(photo taken from a FB group)

Dravokivich wrote: »

With NTA pursuing contactless Debit Cards, what ever is done with that, should lead into opportunities for the other stuff there.

Yes I think the ideal would be the following:

1) Contactless cards + contacless mobile payment (Apple Pay, etc.) for pay as you go option, including daily and weekly capping.

The advantage being that it requires zero setup, just use what you already have and great for tourists arriving off a plane.

2) Allow you the option to store your leap card in Apple/Google Wallet. This would be very useful for other users, e.g. Free Travel Pass, Child Leap Card (discount), Monthly/Annual Taxsaver tickets, various mutli-trip tickets.

Of course the physical leap card should remain an option for both type of users who prefer that.

Dravokivich

With NTA pursuing contactless Debit Cards, what ever is done with that, should lead into opportunities for the other stuff there.

To be clear, both PTSB and BOI have contactless debit/ATM and credit cards. So if/when Leap implement contactless payments, your existing PTSB/BOI debt cards will just work with it by holding the card to the card reader when entering the bus/Luas, etc.

Mobile payments (Apple Pay, etc.) are an additional feature on top of contactless payments, that yes, PTSB/BOI will need to eventually support, but it wouldn't be a stopper for Leap, you would still have other options (e.g. use your physical card).

BTW AIB/KBC/Ulsterbank/Revolut/N26 all already support both contactless debit/credit cards AND mobile payments (Apple Pay, etc).

Of course if the NTA decided to also support you putting your Leap card in your Apple/Google Wallet, then you could use that instead of your PTSB/BOI cards for mobile payment.

Of course the above is all dependent on where the NTA decides to go with Leap.

Dravokivich

When I used to do work with them, they were transitioning from NT4, to WinXP, at a time when other organisations were transitioning to Win7. They had a high dependency on legacy solutions, because the stuff they were using was developed in-house. I'd imagine their concern with "scope creep" is more to do with SAAS and licensing costs.

I can understand why they'd be slow to progress with IT, when a lot of financial companies would have dove in agressively in the 80's, for it to be archaic by the 90's. They need to learn from the position they left themselves in 10 years ago and make their IT adaptable and easier to expand. It seems they didn't.

CatInABox

antimatterx wrote: »

How bad are BOI?

It might be a good opportunity for some contractors to make bank.

Oh yeah, you're not the only one to think of that:

Bank of Ireland bosses fight to rein in tech bill (paywall alert)

A €500 million project is looking at coming in at €2 billion. I actually think that they pressed pause on it there last year, which comes with it's own problems, and I can't imagine that COVID is helping them.

antimatterx

CatInABox wrote: »

Not so much "won't" as "can't". They're currently reaping the harvest for not investing a cent into their IT systems for decades. Not sure about PTSB, but BOI are in dire straights with their IT.

How bad are BOI?

It might be a good opportunity for some contractors to make bank.

Amirani

galwaytt wrote: »

I wouldn't get wound up about it: PTSB don't allow Google Pay or Apple Pay on their cards anyway, so even if DB enable their end, the bank won't. Not sure if any other banks are the same.

You don't need Google Pay or Apple Pay, you just need a card with contactless payments. It's hard to get one without contactless these days.

CatInABox

p_haugh wrote: »

Same case with Bank of Ireland *sigh*

Not so much "won't" as "can't". They're currently reaping the harvest for not investing a cent into their IT systems for decades. Not sure about PTSB, but BOI are in dire straights with their IT.

p_haugh

galwaytt wrote: »

I wouldn't get wound up about it: PTSB don't allow Google Pay or Apple Pay on their cards anyway, so even if DB enable their end, the bank won't. Not sure if any other banks are the same.

Same case with Bank of Ireland *sigh*

galwaytt

I wouldn't get wound up about it: PTSB don't allow Google Pay or Apple Pay on their cards anyway, so even if DB enable their end, the bank won't. Not sure if any other banks are the same.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Its over 14km from Aldi in Blessington to the petrol station near the Citywest junction on the N81.

As I mentioned it certainly wouldn't be an issue with Leap. Just order a leap card online, it gets posted to you or use the debit card you already have or order a revolut one and get it delivered to you.

As others have mentioned, how does a person like this get cash in the first place to pay for a bus ride? You get the cash from either a shop, bank, ATM or post office.

Leap/debit cards would actually be easier.

Carawaystick

markpb wrote: »

Are there no shops along those routes? We’re talking about Dublin Bus routes, let’s not exaggerate.

Its over 14km from Aldi in Blessington to the petrol station near the Citywest junction on the N81.

I had assumed Carawaystick question was related to the old European style of buying books of tickets.

Obviously it wouldn't be an issue with the new approach and Leap.

1) Currently you can order a leap card online and it gets posted to you with credit on it. You can topup online or better yet, turn on auto-topup

2) In future, when they enable contactless payments, simply use your contactless debit card. Anyone with a bank account has one or you can easily get one from Revolut/N26 or similar preload debit cards you can get from various places.

YellowBucket wrote: »

Main reason is the technology has marched on very, very quickly and transit systems have a lot of expensive technology in terms of card readers and systems behind them.

Leap was planned well over a decade ago and was state of the art at the time.

Well the ticket machines used on the buses differently weren't state of the art. Even 10 years ago, when they first started rolling them out, they were already years out of date.

The lack of memory and processing power on the ticket machines seems to certainly caused extreme issues for the Leap project and need replacing to move forward.

YellowBucket wrote: »

What concerns me more here is the lack of simple ticketing and the cumbersome one door entry and exit approach on buses.

It should be possible to scan your card at multiple points on all busses and trams and have all door entry / exit.

This is the main problem with Leap, I agree with you it isn't really the technology. Rather it is the broken fare system and bus operating process.

It is a pretty common issue with government projects. You have a broken system/process and they try and put technology ontop of the broken system, hoping it will fix the underlying issues, which of course it doesn't at all. If anything it can make it worse.

Ideally you need to fix the underlying issues first, before you add the tech or at least fix the issues at the same time you add the tech.

The Leap project made the sin of doing nothing to fix the underlying issues. It was just layered on the same old broken fare system, driver interaction, single door operation.

When I think about the Next Generation Ticketing project, I don't just think about it in terms of mobile ticketing, etc. I think about it in terms of the entire ticketing and bus process. Moving to a flat fare, driverless tag-on, no cash, multi-door operation, along with contactless payments. And I hope the folks at the NTA have learned their lessons from the Leap project and see it in the same way.

Really we should have fixed the root problems decades ago. We should have already moved to the flat fare system when DB was looking to do that and further back, when they got rid of the conductor, we should have moved to the Luas/German style, multiple door, validate ticket on-board, no driver interaction model with ticket inspectors.

YellowBucket wrote: »

We’ve stupid dwell times, and it’s worse in the cities using Bus Éireann services as they’re still accepting payment in cash and giving change. It’s ludicrous somewhere like Cork where you’ve very busy city bus routes and busses taking an age to depart from stops, often obstructing other road users and delaying the service itself too as passengers keep paying with cash and expecting change.

Oh god, don't get me started about BE in Cork. It shows the stupidity of it all, that Cork city is a flat fare, but even with a Leap card you still have to interact with the driver, it is actually slower then on DB, looks like the driver has to click three or so buttons.

No right hand validator. People with leap cards in Cork should just be beep on at the right hand validator with no interaction with the driver. So stupid and been going on for years now!!

YellowBucket wrote: »

Those kinds of issues need to be addressed urgently. Any kind of transit contactless payment be it the existing Leap card or mobile payments is only the nuts and bolts. It’s the broader picture of how the system knits together and works that lets us down here.

I agree, but it doesn't look like we are heading to the Luas/Continental style of operation for buses.

Instead the model we look to be heading too is the London Bus style model. Flat fare, tag-on, no driver interaction, board via the front door, exit via the rear door.

I don't think it is as nice as the Continental style, but would still be MUCH better then the current mess.