Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

Last Stop · 26-07-2019 10:41am #1

Great news that Adare will host the Ryder cup in 2026.

A lot of talk has naturally been about the M21 bypass which I would say is a must but would it be worth considering reopening the section of the Limerick-Foynes line for the event?

The event will attract approx. 200k people which is a serious amount of car and bus parking that could be reducing significantly if you ran a shuttle train from Limerick every 20 minutes

It’s around 15km and they have 7 years so I think it’s worth considering.

Definitely something the Greens should be pushing anyway

L1011 · 26-07-2019 2:10pm

It would be as easy and vastly cheaper to run shuttle buses. If the line reopens it'll be for freight

average_runner · 26-07-2019 2:11pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Great news that Adare will host the Ryder cup in 2026.

A lot of talk has naturally been about the M21 bypass which I would say is a must but would it be worth considering reopening the section of the Limerick-Foynes line for the event?

The event will attract approx. 200k people which is a serious amount of car and bus parking that could be reducing significantly if you ran a shuttle train from Limerick every 20 minutes

It’s around 15km and they have 7 years so I think it’s worth considering.

Definitely something the Greens should be pushing anyway

Depends on the cost and how will the tax payer recoup the cost back?
No profit no line

CrabRevolution · 27-07-2019 1:50pm

We struggle to open lines that will serve millions of people all year every year until the end of time. Why would we open an entire line to serve a few thousand people for 3 days?

Vic_08 · 27-07-2019 4:46pm

Reasons to open line:
Significant freight flow.
Large Commuter base.
Positive Cost Benefit Analysis.

Reasons not to open line:
One-off sporting event.

ncounties · 28-07-2019 11:02am

A much better use of the money you propose spending on this line, would be extending the M3 Parkway line ever further.

Phileas Frog · 28-07-2019 11:03am

Hahahaha, no.

is_that_so · 28-07-2019 11:06am

Vic_08 wrote: »

Reasons to open line:
Significant freight flow.
Large Commuter base.
Positive Cost Benefit Analysis.

Reasons not to open line:
One-off sporting event.

Then majority of freight goes by road and CIE haven't been involved in a significant way for some time.

Last Stop · 29-07-2019 7:33pm

So clearly we are stuck with the Irish mentality when it comes to public transport provision.
I’d like to clarify a few things about my suggestion:
1. The line serve Adare, Patrickswell and the ever growing suburbs of Limerick. It would be an very popular commuter line if built.

2. There is no comparison between this and other lines that should be built. We seem to have a mentality of this or that when we should be saying why not both.

3. A train carries approx. 1000 people. That the equivalent of 10 buses. To cater for 300k people you’d need 300 trains vs 3000 buses. I know the majority will travel by car but if you even had 10 trains per day that would be 40k cars off the road or 400 buses.

4. One off sporting events are one of the main reasons for building transport infrastructure. The first thing the majority of people said when it was announced was “well they’ll finally get a bypass so” and the N7 was widened for the K club. That’s not to mention countless other examples all over the world

Zebra3 · 29-07-2019 8:27pm

Nobody tends to build anything for a one off sports event unless it’s in some tinpot dictatorship.

What tends to happen with sensible planning is that major sporting events are used as the catalyst to drive infrastructural projects.

“We have the Olympics in even years time. Our public transport projects must be finished by then, let’s bring in special legislation to get things going”.

That was part of the reason for London getting the Olympics.

gctest50 · 29-07-2019 8:44pm

Shouldn't have taken it away in the first place

Darc19 · 29-07-2019 8:56pm

Last Stop wrote: »

So clearly we are stuck with the Irish mentality when it comes to public transport provision.
I’d like to clarify a few things about my suggestion:
1. The line serve Adare, Patrickswell and the ever growing suburbs of Limerick. It would be an very popular commuter line if built.

2. There is no comparison between this and other lines that should be built. We seem to have a mentality of this or that when we should be saying why not both.

3. A train carries approx. 1000 people. That the equivalent of 10 buses. To cater for 300k people you’d need 300 trains vs 3000 buses. I know the majority will travel by car but if you even had 10 trains per day that would be 40k cars off the road or 400 buses.

4. One off sporting events are one of the main reasons for building transport infrastructure. The first thing the majority of people said when it was announced was “well they’ll finally get a bypass so” and the N7 was widened for the K club. That’s not to mention countless other examples all over the world

The capital and ongoing running costs of a train service are huge.

Average carriage holds max 100 people including standing.

Even with 6 carriage trains that's max 600.

Add drivers and other personnel and you're into massive costs.

Most people want to get into the city 8am-9am not enough time for turnarounds, so at least 12-18 carriages required + 6 engine cars.

Chance of 40,000 users? Not a chance in hell.

Then look at busses. Cheaper capital costs, more flexible, quicker turnaround, can be used in many ways during off peak hours.

Better chance of Rory mcilroy winning the grand slam in one season than a train service.

N7 widening was planned a long long time before the Ryder cup was announced, but it did speed up the works.

cgcsb · 30-07-2019 5:01pm

Limerick should have a a half hourly commuter rail service on 3 lines, i.e. one leaving Colbert every 10 minutes:

1: Colbert-Childers Rd-Rosbrien Rd/N18(new P &R)-Crescent SC-Russel Estate-N69 P&R
2: Colbert-Ballysimon Rd-Parkway SC-Corbally Rd.-Moyross
3: Colbert-Kilmallock Roundabout-Rossmore/industrial estate-New M7/N24 P&R-Limerick Junction

Once that's in place, a spur from line 2 to serve: N18(new P&R)-Kilteragh-Rosbrien Rd/M20 P&R-Doradoyle Rd-Raheen Business park.

A simple leap fare should cover from the end of these commuter lines to Colbert, with same fare applying to the buses, unlimited changes for an hour.

This should be complimented by a frequent bus connects network and a massive network of cycle lanes and largescale pedestrianisation of the city centre.

After all that, extending the urban rail network to farflung places like Adare should be considered but not before then.

This mistake was made in Dublin, all the TDs were getting hassled to have the luas extended to their area, regardless of whether the system in the centre was sound and had spare capacity, and completely ignoring how utterly unsuitable on street trams were for serving distant suburbs from the centre. The result is we have a slow tram servicing mountain communities with 1hr plus journey times to the centre and a heavily congested centre with no spare capacity in the system to speak of

If you want a commuter rail link to Adare, start from scratch, the unused rail lines encircling Limerick have to be providing a reliable, frequent urban rail service first.

Pete_Cavan · 30-07-2019 5:23pm

Isn't the line to Adare single track? And no possibility of through running through Colbert, thereby requiring all trains to turnback? So frequency would be crap, and nothing like what would be needed for a commuter service which would entice people out of their cars, and Colbert would just be a congested mess?

Last Stop · 30-07-2019 8:09pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nobody tends to build anything for a one off sports event unless it’s in some tinpot dictatorship.

What tends to happen with sensible planning is that major sporting events are used as the catalyst to drive infrastructural projects.

“We have the Olympics in even years time. Our public transport projects must be finished by then, let’s bring in special legislation to get things going”.

That was part of the reason for London getting the Olympics.

I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

Last Stop · 30-07-2019 8:17pm

Darc19 wrote: »

The capital and ongoing running costs of a train service are huge.

Average carriage holds max 100 people including standing.

Even with 6 carriage trains that's max 600.

Add drivers and other personnel and you're into massive costs.

Most people want to get into the city 8am-9am not enough time for turnarounds, so at least 12-18 carriages required + 6 engine cars.

Chance of 40,000 users? Not a chance in hell.

Then look at busses. Cheaper capital costs, more flexible, quicker turnaround, can be used in many ways during off peak hours.

Better chance of Rory mcilroy winning the grand slam in one season than a train service.

N7 widening was planned a long long time before the Ryder cup was announced, but it did speed up the works.

My reference to 40k was for the Ryder cup specifically assuming 10-15 trains per day each direction between say 7-12 towards Adare and 5pm-9pm towards limerick or through services to Dublin.

You need drivers for buses too and even with 6 carriage trains you’d need 6 bus drivers to move the same amount of passengers so if anything, that favours the train.

Zebra3 · 30-07-2019 8:32pm

Last Stop wrote: »

I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

We don’t have Qatar’s wealth.

What public transport projects were built in South Africa for the WC?

Last Stop · 30-07-2019 8:58pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

We don’t have Qatar’s wealth.

What public transport projects were built in South Africa for the WC?

Which is why I’m suggesting reopening a 15km rail line and not building a brand new metro from scratch.

South Africa built the Gautrain between Pretoria and Johannesburg for the world cup

Cookiemunster · 31-07-2019 11:45am

Last Stop wrote: »

I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

Greece and South Africa are both highly corrupt countries that were left millions in debt with multiple white elephant projects after those. Reopening 15k of rail for 1 week would also be a white elephant.

Last Stop wrote: »

South Africa built the Gautrain between Pretoria and Johannesburg for the world cup

It wasn't built for the world cup. It was announced in 2000 before SA won the world cup and it wasn't finished unitl 2012.

cgcsb · 31-07-2019 1:52pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Isn't the line to Adare single track? And no possibility of through running through Colbert, thereby requiring all trains to turnback? So frequency would be crap, and nothing like what would be needed for a commuter service which would entice people out of their cars, and Colbert would just be a congested mess?

A 3 line commuter rail system with each line having half hourly service is reasonable and quite doable with single track, the Doradoyle-Colbert section would have to e double tracked eventually. Starting a commuter rail service JUST to serve Adare, is daft, a whole network approach is required. Colbert wouldn't be a mess at all, it'd be accommodating 1 train every 10 mins, much smaller stations in Dublin accommodate this type of service.

cgcsb · 31-07-2019 1:54pm

Last Stop wrote: »

I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

All these countries are rife with corruption and only interested in showmanship on the international stage rather than actually improving public transport long term. Have a look at London's prep for the olympics, much more low key with everything given an afteruse function. The Athens olympic village is still rotting away afaik.

Cookiemunster · 01-08-2019 10:33am

cgcsb wrote: »

A 3 line commuter rail system with each line having half hourly service is reasonable and quite doable with single track, the Doradoyle-Colbert section would have to e double tracked eventually. Starting a commuter rail service JUST to serve Adare, is daft, a whole network approach is required. Colbert wouldn't be a mess at all, it'd be accommodating 1 train every 10 mins, much smaller stations in Dublin accommodate this type of service.

Are any of those stations end of the line stations?

cgcsb · 01-08-2019 10:41am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Are any of those stations end of the line stations?

Malahide, Howth, Bray and Greystones. Graystones does it with one track. Grand Canal Dock does frequent turn arounds in a much tighter space.

If Limerick commuter rail was built to a good standard and electrified, it'd be no problem at all to accommodate one departure and one arrival every 10 mins.

Last Stop · 01-08-2019 10:11pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Greece and South Africa are both highly corrupt countries that were left millions in debt with multiple white elephant projects after those. Reopening 15k of rail for 1 week would also be a white elephant.

It wasn't built for the world cup. It was announced in 2000 before SA won the world cup and it wasn't finished unitl 2012.

That’s the point, it wouldn’t be reopened for 1 week. It would be reopened as a commuter line based on the opportunity the Ryder cup offers.

Last Stop · 01-08-2019 10:13pm

cgcsb wrote: »

All these countries are rife with corruption and only interested in showmanship on the international stage rather than actually improving public transport long term. Have a look at London's prep for the olympics, much more low key with everything given an afteruse function. The Athens olympic village is still rotting away afaik.

London invested heavily in its public transport network for the games.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-12769307 They built a £70m road to connect to the sailing venue so while it has an after use, this was built as a result of hosting the Olympics

Last Stop · 01-08-2019 10:16pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A 3 line commuter rail system with each line having half hourly service is reasonable and quite doable with single track, the Doradoyle-Colbert section would have to e double tracked eventually. Starting a commuter rail service JUST to serve Adare, is daft, a whole network approach is required. Colbert wouldn't be a mess at all, it'd be accommodating 1 train every 10 mins, much smaller stations in Dublin accommodate this type of service.

You can’t just build a whole network from day 1. It needs to be developed over time. The line to Adare is one part of the potential overall network. Between Adare and Doradoyle could easily be single track with Doradoyle-Colbert double track.

cgcsb · 01-08-2019 10:36pm

Last Stop wrote: »

London invested heavily in its public transport network for the games.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-12769307 They built a £70m road to connect to the sailing venue so while it has an after use, this was built as a result of hosting the Olympics

Everything they built has an after use. A solitary rail line to Adare would not

cgcsb · 01-08-2019 10:38pm

Last Stop wrote: »

You can’t just build a whole network from day 1. It needs to be developed over time. The line to Adare is one part of the potential overall network. Between Adare and Doradoyle could easily be single track with Doradoyle-Colbert double track.

To built a network you start in the centre and target the busiest routes first. Adare isn't anywhere near the busiest route. There's no cause to start with somewhere so far out from the urban area

Last Stop · 02-08-2019 10:05am

cgcsb wrote: »

Everything they built has an after use. A solitary rail line to Adare would not

It would serve as a commuter line to Limerick

Last Stop · 02-08-2019 10:07am

cgcsb wrote: »

To built a network you start in the centre and target the busiest routes first. Adare isn't anywhere near the busiest route. There's no cause to start with somewhere so far out from the urban area

15km is not a major distance from the city centre. Swords, Bray etc are further away from Dublin. This would allow Adare become a commuter town with a sustainable form of transport. The route would serve large commuter areas of the city such as Doradoyle.

cgcsb · 02-08-2019 1:43pm

Last Stop wrote: »

It would serve as a commuter line to Limerick

A city which currently has no commuter rail network. Talk about Cart before horse.

cgcsb · 02-08-2019 1:48pm

Last Stop wrote: »

15km is not a major distance from the city centre. Swords, Bray etc are further away from Dublin. This would allow Adare become a commuter town with a sustainable form of transport. The route would serve large commuter areas of the city such as Doradoyle.

Commute distance is relative to the size of the city. Dublin has sufficient pull to make Longford a commuter town. Limerick does not. You can purchase a 2-3 bed home in the city for under €100k so it doesn't have any practical use for distant commuter towns. You'd be mental to buy a house in Adare with the intention of commuting to Limerick City Centre every day when you can have a 2 bed flat in the City Centre for €80k

Last Stop · 02-08-2019 2:02pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A city which currently has no commuter rail network. Talk about Cart before horse.

Do you want to reread what you just said?

To clarify you are saying they shouldn’t build a commuter rail line in Limerick because Limerick doesn’t have a commuter rail network? Am I’m missing something here??

cgcsb · 02-08-2019 2:05pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Do you want to reread what you just said?

To clarify you are saying they shouldn’t build a commuter rail line in Limerick because Limerick doesn’t have a commuter rail network? Am I’m missing something here??

The City needs to have a commuter network before an exurb can.

Cookiemunster · 02-08-2019 2:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Commute distance is relative to the size of the city. Dublin has sufficient pull to make Longford a commuter town. Limerick does not. You can purchase a 2-3 bed home in the city for under €100k so it doesn't have any practical use for distant commuter towns. You'd be mental to buy a house in Adare with the intention of commuting to Limerick City Centre every day when you can have a 2 bed flat in the City Centre for €80k

You could, but the reason that they're that cheap is that they're in areas that nobody wants to live. The cheapest housing in areas that people want to actually live would be in the €160-180 range. Average price in the city is €200k. And as for city center the flats for €80k, again there's a reason they're that cheap.

cgcsb · 02-08-2019 3:53pm

having central areas that nobody wants to live in is a problem and promoting 15km+ commutes to facilitate people not living in them is not a solution. We've been through this in Ireland and across the western world many times before.

Vic_08 · 02-08-2019 6:35pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You could, but the reason that they're that cheap is that they're in areas that nobody wants to live. The cheapest housing in areas that people want to actually live would be in the €160-180 range. Average price in the city is €200k. And as for city center the flats for €80k, again there's a reason they're that cheap.

It would be more cost effective to build a prison on cheap land to rid the city of the scum that make it unlivable rather than force decent folk into a lifetime of unnecessarily long commuting just to try to escape the crime and anti-social behaviour that spoils our otherwise decent urban areas.

Last Stop · 02-08-2019 7:57pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The City needs to have a commuter network before an exurb can.

This line would do both. It would serve the inner suburbs and extend to the exurb (don’t even know if that’s a defined term) to serve the towns of Patrickswell and Adare.

You’re trying to justify not building a piece of infrastructure (line to Adare) purely because we don’t have another piece of infrastructure (Limerick rail network). That’s like saying we shouldn’t build Metro because we don’t have Dart underground. They are two different projects and can be built independently of each other, however when combined their benefit is greater.

Last Stop · 02-08-2019 7:59pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

It would be more cost effective to build a prison on cheap land to rid the city of the scum that make it unlivable rather than force decent folk into a lifetime of unnecessarily long commuting just to try to escape the crime and anti-social behaviour that spoils our otherwise decent urban areas.

As much as I appreciate the satirical nature of the post, between the cost of extra guards, the courts system, the prison and the gentrification of the areas the rail line would be a multiple cheaper.

cgcsb · 02-08-2019 8:05pm

The approach is all wrong. It's a small city, it isn't Tokyo where 15km commutes are understandable. The whole population can comfortably fit within a 20 minute cycle from the centre. Encouraging mammoth commutes isn't good for the people and is even worse for the environment. Think of the energy used to move those people when ample housing in central areas would cutncommutes and energy consumption by transport to near nothing.

My point about commuter rail is, the core area has to have good service first. As we see in Dublin people demanding their rural mountain communities are served by on street trams has resulted in the system being unbordable by the time it reaches the inner suburbs

Last Stop · 02-08-2019 8:17pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The approach is all wrong. It's a small city, it isn't Tokyo where 15km commutes are understandable. The whole population can comfortably fit within a 20 minute cycle from the centre. Encouraging mammoth commutes isn't good for the people and is even worse for the environment. Think of the energy used to move those people when ample housing in central areas would cutncommutes and energy consumption by transport to near nothing.

My point about commuter rail is, the core area has to have good service first. As we see in Dublin people demanding their rural mountain communities are served by on street trams has resulted in the system being unbordable by the time it reaches the inner suburbs

I can see where you are coming from but have to disagree. Adare and Patrickswell are not suburbs of Limerick and I hope will never become such but they are commuter towns. There is a difference. Think of Adare as similar to say Sallins/Naas, a town in its own right which offers a train service to Dublin. As the train line gets closer to the city it becomes a commuter line. The journey between Sallins and the city centre has limited stops at other towns between it and Dublin but does not stop at every commuter stop. The Adare line would stop at Patrickswell, Doradoyle and Limerick Colbert. A commuter line to Doradoyle would have several more stops between it and Colbert.

Marcusm · 02-08-2019 8:55pm

More importantly, how many of the people who wish to attend the Ryder Cup will start their journey in Limerick?

Cookiemunster · 03-08-2019 10:04am

Marcusm wrote: »

More importantly, how many of the people who wish to attend the Ryder Cup will start their journey in Limerick?

Well every hotel, guest house, Airbnb room etc in the city will be fully booked, so I'd say thousands.

Still not enough to reopen a rail line for though.

Cookiemunster · 03-08-2019 10:09am

cgcsb wrote: »

having central areas that nobody wants to live in is a problem and promoting 15km+ commutes to facilitate people not living in them is not a solution. We've been through this in Ireland and across the western world many times before.

I wasn't suggesting that people should live in Adare and commute. I was pointing out that the prices you quoted were flawed and Limerick isn't as cheap to live in as you were saying.

Last Stop · 03-08-2019 11:15am

Limerick doesn’t have to be the starting point of the rail journey. You could
A) transfer from an intercity service at Colbert

have a through service from Dublin

Both of these options would generate high levels of patronage given the stress free nature of using public transport to get to major events and the significant amount of traffic the event will create.

Marcusm · 03-08-2019 11:42pm

Killarney is 60 miles from Adare with hundred of 4&5 star hotel rooms with spa, conference & golf facilities. It’s likely to provide a lot of the rooms - the facilities when compared to Limerick plus the existing tour group connections will swing it Kerry’s way!

cgcsb · 04-08-2019 2:01pm

LMATS should include some provision for a commuter rail system in Limerick, it's long overdue

Cookiemunster · 05-08-2019 7:58pm

Marcusm wrote: »

Killarney is 60 miles from Adare with hundred of 4&5 star hotel rooms with spa, conference & golf facilities. It’s likely to provide a lot of the rooms - the facilities when compared to Limerick plus the existing tour group connections will swing it Kerry’s way!

Veering off topic I know, but.......

Killarney is 60 miles and hour from Adare, Limerick is 10 miles and 10 minutes from Adare. There are 250K visitors expected. Most won't be staying at 4 and 5 star hotels. If you honestly think that every hotel room in Limerick won't be booked out during that week, then you're deluded. And not just Limerick, but there won't be a hotel room available in Clare either.

Yes I'm sure due to lack of availability close to the venue places like Killarney will do very well, but the majority of visitors will either start their journeys in Limerick or pass through Limerick to get to Adare.

ncounties · 05-08-2019 8:08pm

Asking for everyone else... how is this still being discussed a week and a half after the initial post? I'm going to start an equally unrealistic thread which proposes the building of a Maglev system from Connolly to Derry's Waterside Station, the pro's and con's of which can be discussed at length.

Del2005 · 05-08-2019 8:17pm

Last Stop wrote: »

Both of these options would generate high levels of patronage given the stress free nature of using public transport to get to major events and the significant amount of traffic the event will create.

After using public transport to get to several rural concerts and reading reports of people attending concerts in some parts of Dublin using public transport is not a stress free way to travel to major events in this country.

Last Stop · 05-08-2019 8:32pm

ncounties wrote: »

Asking for everyone else... how is this still being discussed a week and a half after the initial post? I'm going to start an equally unrealistic thread which proposes the building of a Maglev system from Connolly to Derry's Waterside Station, the pro's and con's of which can be discussed at length.

What’s unrealistic about reopening 15km of disused railway between a reasonable sized village and a regional city for an international sporting event with potential for future commuter use?
Comparing it to a maglev between Dublin and a city 200km away which currently isn’t even in the same jurisdiction and even if it was would only be the 5th largest city is nonsense.
If you can point out a similar sized public transport investment (between 150-200m) which would have the same benefits as this then I will agree that it is not sensible but until then there is merit in discussing the idea. And before people start suggesting projects such as Navan rail line or Dart underground, these are a multiple of the scale and price of this project and building this would have no impact on either of these going ahead.

Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

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