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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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    #662
    Boredstiff666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Boredstiff666


    sparky42 wrote: »


    We aren't talking about air to air combat, frankly there is no such threat nor likely to be one.

    So why buy F16's?


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    #663
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,856 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Boredstiff666 wrote: »
    But how can Ireland afford such up to date aircraft?

    We could probably negotiate a price of around €17 million per airframe at a guess. Say we bought 7, that’s €119 million euro, add to that training costs, maintenance costs, staffing costs, GSE costs, fuel, insurance and more.... that’s a seriously big whack of cash before we add in more recurrent costs...

    considering that the aircraft will be protecting us from a threat that doesn’t to our knowledge actually exist... who is going to attack us and from the air ? The country doesn’t have per say another state as an enemy and even if some rogue state or entity would decide to have a go, they aren’t exactly coming from nearby so they will be flagged to be approaching Europe and being in such close proximity to Britain they will presume it’s for them and intercept...


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    #664
    Boredstiff666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Boredstiff666


    Strumms wrote: »
    We could probably negotiate a price of around €17 million per airframe at a guess. Say we bought 7, that’s €119 million euro, add to that training costs, maintenance costs, staffing costs, GSE costs, fuel, insurance and more.... that’s a seriously big whack of cash before we add in more recurrent costs...

    considering that the aircraft will be protecting us from a threat that doesn’t to our knowledge actually exist... who is going to attack us and from the air ? The country doesn’t have per say another state as an enemy and even if some rogue state or entity would decide to have a go, they aren’t exactly coming from nearby so they will be flagged to be approaching Europe and being in such close proximity to Britain they will presume it’s for them and intercept...

    I agree. But I would spend that cash on anti aircraft guns and missiles instead.


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    #665
    satguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭satguy


    We don't need fighter jets, we need trains, buses, good roads, and maybe some low cost family homes.

    Or even stop building the new children’s hospital at the St James’s Hospital site, and buy a nice green field site somewhere better. (and take the hit)


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    #666
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    satguy wrote: »
    We don't need fighter jets, we need trains, buses, good roads, and maybe some low cost family homes.

    Or even stop building the new children’s hospital at the St James’s Hospital site, and buy a nice green field site somewhere better. (and take the hit)


    Any and all of those are already funded far more than the DF is and even buying fighters wouldn't change that.


    As for the idea that you could come up with a cheaper build of the new hospital... Can I sell you a bridge?


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    #667
    Boredstiff666
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Boredstiff666


    satguy wrote: »
    We don't need fighter jets, we need trains, buses, good roads, and maybe some low cost family homes.

    Or even stop building the new children’s hospital at the St James’s Hospital site, and buy a nice green field site somewhere better. (and take the hit)

    All of that costs many billions not a few million. It's an argument thrown up by opposition parties usually because they have nothing to offer but when the cash is added up the argument is none existent.

    You are correct those things are needed but the money is in a different league.


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    #668
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Agreed. 2% spend on defence is appropriate.


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    #669
    Leonidas BL
    Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    We should build a base on the moon too lads.


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    #670
    Lord Fairlord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    The Irish Army could have done with some Irish fast air in Katanga.


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    #671
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Lord Fairlord wrote: »
    The Irish Army could have done with some Irish fast air in Katanga.


    The list of things the Army could have done with in the Congo is vastly larger than just jets.


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    #672
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    sparky42 wrote: »
    The list of things the Army could have done with in the Congo is vastly larger than just jets.

    Aren't supersonic jets optimized for A2A that require long runways and extensive support and maintenance facilities among the least appropriate equipment for a UN peacekeeping operation in a crumbling underdeveloped state?


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    #673
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    Aren't supersonic jets optimized for A2A that require long runways and extensive support and maintenance facilities among the least appropriate equipment for a UN peacekeeping operation in a crumbling underdeveloped state?


    Depends, if the other side has air capability are are willing to use it then it's importance goes up, also why think they have to be optimised for A2A? Each UN deployment has it's own requirements, though arguable the DF are always under equipped either due to domestic issues or international restrictions.


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    #674
    Lord Fairlord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    sparky42 wrote: »
    The list of things the Army could have done with in the Congo is vastly larger than just jets.

    Oh I know but it's still pertinent to topic of this thread; what happened in the Congo made clear the need for air power in the modern context. It should be one of the lessons learned re peace enforcement going forward.


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    #675
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Lord Fairlord wrote: »
    Oh I know but it's still pertinent to topic of this thread; what happened in the Congo made clear the need for air power in the modern context. It should be one of the lessons learned re peace enforcement going forward.


    You assume of course that the UN would permit such hardware deployed, I mean for example the nations would need to agree to it, for example I think the UNFIL/UNDOF missions have restrictions.


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    #676
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    sparky42 wrote: »
    You assume of course that the UN would permit such hardware deployed, I mean for example the nations would need to agree to it, for example I think the UNFIL/UNDOF missions have restrictions.




    The UN use the MI-24 Helicopter for "robust" peacekeeping, ive seen pictures of them in UN scheme & still have the Canon attached, they have been used in anger too.

    https://www.defenceweb.co.za/joint/diplomacy-a-peace/helicopter-gunships-used-to-attack-m23-rebels-in-the-drc/


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    #677
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Psychlops wrote: »
    The UN use the MI-24 Helicopter for "robust" peacekeeping, ive seen pictures of them in UN scheme & still have the Canon attached, they have been used in anger too.

    https://www.defenceweb.co.za/joint/diplomacy-a-peace/helicopter-gunships-used-to-attack-m23-rebels-in-the-drc/


    I know they do, but that depends on the mandate that the UN Force operates under.


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    #678
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Well we' re not havin them in Ireland cos they're made in Russia !


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    #679
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Well we' re not havin them in Ireland cos they're made in Russia !


    And your point? We don't use Russian hardware.


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    #680
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Exactly!


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    #681
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Good news:

    https://twitter.com/IrishAirCorps/status/1218497426681683968


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    #682
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Great bit of kit! Hope to see them at Bray this summer!


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    #683
    Lord Fairlord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    sparky42 wrote: »
    You assume of course that the UN would permit such hardware deployed, I mean for example the nations would need to agree to it, for example I think the UNFIL/UNDOF missions have restrictions.

    Good point. Proportionality is important also.


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    #684
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Too valuable an asset to put at risk I think. Ya don't want Jonny Arab loosin off a few dozen rounds from an auld HMG or a ground to air missile and blowin our shiny new aircraft out of the sky)!


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    #685
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Just been watching video of emergency landing of A340 at Madrid Barajas airport...accompanied by Spanish air force jet.
    Yet another reason to get a squadron of decent jets for the AC? Given that Shannon is always receiving emergency landings!


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    #686
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    Just been watching video of emergency landing of A340 at Madrid Barajas airport...accompanied by Spanish air force jet.
    Yet another reason to get a squadron of decent jets for the AC? Given that Shannon is always receiving emergency landings!


    Why? I mean I can't think of any reason why they had a escort for something like an emergency landing.


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    #687
    Negative_G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    It wasn't an escort.

    Torrejon air base is in the immediate vacinity of Barajas airport.

    Air Canada crew reported and issue with the undercarriage after departure and either the F18s were airborne already on a training sortie or perhaps they were QRA aircraft, but their services were likely offered by ATC or requested by the Air Canada crew. Their sole purpose in this instance was to act as another pair of eyes for the Air Canada crew.

    A PC-9 could, in theory, do the same job on an airliner at low level in a holding pattern.

    The airline crew also have the option of performing a low level pass of an ATC tower to get more information regarding a gear/undercarriage issue.

    However, most QRA aircraft do have perpendicular high intensity lights on their jets to illuminate aircraft at night which could be very useful.

    EDIT: Spanish Air Force now has a video and narrative up on instagram. Aircraft came from Torrejon.


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    #688
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    So we have a figure from one of the AC's former commanders for generating an air defence capability of 16 airframes, putting it (airframes, people, supports) at 1 billion euros it seems:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-would-need-16-fighter-jets-for-full-air-defence-capability-expert-says-1.4184846


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    #689
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    sparky42 wrote: »
    So we have a figure from one of the AC's former commanders for generating an air defence capability of 16 airframes, putting it (airframes, people, supports) at 1 billion euros it seems:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-would-need-16-fighter-jets-for-full-air-defence-capability-expert-says-1.4184846

    "Such a programme would likely cost well in excess of 1 billion". I'd say it's just a tough guesstimate to illustrate the scale of the expense.

    On a separate note it must be a little awkward for the defence forces to talk about enforcing the UN arms embargo on Libya when the LE Aisling ended up in the hands of General Haftar, Libya's foremost warlord, after we flogged it for pennies to the Dutch.


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    #690
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,202 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    "Such a programme would likely cost well in excess of 1 billion". I'd say it's just a tough guesstimate to illustrate the scale of the expense.

    On a separate note it must be a little awkward for the defence forces to talk about enforcing the UN arms embargo on Libya when the LE Aisling ended up in the hands of General Haftar, Libya's foremost warlord, after we flogged it for pennies to the Dutch.

    what was sold to the libyans had no military equipment onboard. it was all stripped out.


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    #691
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    "Such a programme would likely cost well in excess of 1 billion". I'd say it's just a tough guesstimate to illustrate the scale of the expense.

    On a separate note it must be a little awkward for the defence forces to talk about enforcing the UN arms embargo on Libya when the LE Aisling ended up in the hands of General Haftar, Libya's foremost warlord, after we flogged it for pennies to the Dutch.


    Why, she was demilitiaraised by us when sold, the Dutch sold her to the UAE and they gave her to Libya, there's plenty of others to blame before the DF gets to carry the can.


    Also lets be blunt, as a military asset she's extremely limited even if she was restored to original capability, a more interesting question is how much time has she actually seen since on patrol since ending up in Libya?


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