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Circular Number: 0037/2020

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12357…22

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    #122
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Blondini wrote: »
    So for maths I'm using

    From vsware:
    5th year Christmas
    5th year Easter
    5th year summer
    6th year Christmas
    6th year Mock (with caution)

    From teachers journal:
    All other assessments

    From working with the student:
    Engagement
    Homework etc

    Finally, in addition to all the above, I am applying professional judgement to help arrive at final grade.

    Comprehensive enough? Opinions welcome!

    Bout all you can do


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    #123
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Rosita


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    The application of the guidelines applies to all subjects. Schools/teachers generate data. If you choose to hold a monthly class test then you have lots of data. If you choose to hold no class tests, and only go with christmas and summer tests you have less data. You can be in any type of school and make that choice.

    I would question the relevance of most in-class tests as they generally test such a short range of material often recently covered and allow for only a certain type of answer. Christmas and summer tests might amount to less data but more reliable and realistic data I would say. They are also available on the school data system. Presumably any teacher who suggests using class tests they have documented will have to find some way to scan this and make it available to a school data system as students will be entitled to see what has been taken into consideration.


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    #124
    Purefrank128
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Purefrank128


    Rosita wrote: »
    Presumably any teacher who suggests using class tests they have documented will have to find some way to scan this and make it available to a school data system as students will be entitled to see what has been taken into consideration.

    What makes you think that students will be entitled to see what evidence has been taken into consideration in decided the initial school-based mark? What document suggests that?

    If a student appeals the final calculated grade, he/she can see the initial school-based mark and rank, but the appeal is very limited and is essentially a check for any clerical or administrative errors. I don't see anything to suggest that students will be told how the school arrived at their marks.

    Since much of the evidence is non-corporeal, i.e. teachers' professional judgement, there is no way that students could or should expect to be able to see it.


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    #125
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Blondini wrote: »
    So for maths I'm using

    From vsware:
    5th year Christmas
    5th year Easter
    5th year summer
    6th year Christmas
    6th year Mock (with caution)

    From teachers journal:
    All other assessments

    From working with the student:
    Engagement
    Homework etc

    Finally, in addition to all the above, I am applying professional judgement to help arrive at final grade.

    Comprehensive enough? Opinions welcome!

    That's my plan too


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    #126
    Buddhas belly
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Buddhas belly


    km79 wrote: »
    I’m sure her school has provided her with all the information available already but just in case here it is
    https://www.education.ie/en/Learners/Information/State-Examinations/a-guide-to-calculated-grades-for-leaving-certificate-students-2020.pdf

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/#information-for-leaving-cert-students

    That’s it. No teacher can add anything to it for students .

    thanks for the links km9. I'll send this to her. It may clarify things further for her.


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    #127
    paddybarry
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭paddybarry


    Blondini wrote: »
    So for maths I'm using

    From vsware:
    5th year Christmas
    5th year Easter
    5th year summer
    6th year Christmas
    6th year Mock (with caution)

    From teachers journal:
    All other assessments

    From working with the student:
    Engagement
    Homework etc

    Finally, in addition to all the above, I am applying professional judgement to help arrive at final grade.

    Comprehensive enough? Opinions welcome!
    Would you not consider the sec results for past 3 years?


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    #128
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    paddybarry wrote: »
    Would you not consider the sec results for past 3 years?

    I’d be careful with that. Don’t feel pressured to ensure that 25% of your class get H4 , or whatever.
    Let the bell curve boys be slicing and dicing.

    Not that I’m suggesting we hand out a dozen H1s, or anything!


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    #129
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    paddybarry wrote: »
    Would you not consider the sec results for past 3 years?

    My thinking on that is that it isn't the teachers place to do so. That's the alignment process. Maybe I've misunderstood?


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    #130
    paddybarry
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭paddybarry


    History Queen wrote: »
    My thinking on that is that it isn't the teachers place to do so. That's the alignment process. Maybe I've misunderstood?
    I would have the opposite view. Ive had same class group for past 3 years. Sec gives me a fair guide. Doing it by year also helps as ability wise this years class might be closer to 2018 for example.
    Page 13 of guidelines states that this helps informs professional judgement.


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    #131
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    paddybarry wrote: »
    I would have the opposite view. Ive had same class group for past 3 years. Sec gives me a fair guide. Doing it by year also helps as ability wise this years class might be closer to 2018 for example.
    Page 13 of guidelines states that this helps informs professional judgement.

    I see your point of view but still see it as closer to the alignment process than teachers' role. I won't be using SEC records but unlike you I don't have the same group. I've an OL English group this year, I had a HL group for the last two years.

    I'm more of the opinion that my professional judgement is my own experience as a teacher and what typical performances I have seen in my career should be applied to the group I have in front of me.


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    #132
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    paddybarry wrote: »
    Would you not consider the sec results for past 3 years?

    Some will use it, some won't.

    You can argue your group this year is very similar to previous years, therefore the SEC pattern will be part of the process.

    You can argue this group are not similar to previous years or other factors may have changed such as a new teacher in department etc and hence you could argue these stats are not useful.

    I will use it for one of my LC subjects but not the other. I can't really go into much more detail than that tho. You can fill in the gap yourself.


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    #133
    paddybarry
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭paddybarry


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Some will use it, some won't.

    You can argue your group this year is very similar to previous years, therefore the SEC pattern will be part of the process.

    You can argue this group are not similar to previous years or other factors may have changed such as a new teacher in department etc and hence you could argue these stats are not useful.

    I will use it for one of my LC subjects but not the other. I can't really go into much more detail than that tho. You can fill in the gap yourself.
    Exactly.


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    #134
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭Treppen


    I'd ignore any result from before Christmas 2019.

    It'd be like judging the form of a racehorse by a lap he did 10 years ago.


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    #135
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Treppen wrote: »
    I'd ignore any result from before Christmas 2019.

    It'd be like judging the form of a racehorse by a lap he did 10 years ago.

    Just the mocks to consider then in a lot of cases. Only 7 weeks of face to face teaching excluding mocks in most schools. Unlikely to have been much assessment in that timeframe and in the context of the mocks taking place.


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    #136
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Treppen wrote: »
    I'd ignore any result from before Christmas 2019.

    It'd be like judging the form of a racehorse by a lap he did 10 years ago.

    You'd study the form before you'd back a horse :)


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    #137
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    solerina wrote: »
    Kids often do much better on the day but kids that average mid 40s suddenly springing something over 70 in the mocks..... I call cheats, yes one in a class of 30 may achieve this jump but I still find it extremely suspicious !! I would base my prediction closer to their average

    Well 55 is closer to their avg of 47 than 70. I don't think these lads would bother cheating to be honest. I did the odd hint to compensate for fact we had not finished the course.


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    #138
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Blondini wrote: »
    So for maths I'm using

    From vsware:
    5th year Christmas
    5th year Easter
    5th year summer
    6th year Christmas
    6th year Mock (with caution)

    From teachers journal:
    All other assessments

    From working with the student:
    Engagement
    Homework etc

    Finally, in addition to all the above, I am applying professional judgement to help arrive at final grade.

    Comprehensive enough? Opinions welcome!

    That's fair enough. I kept few personal records as half the class were total disaster for homework. Had put in a few reports but no real improvement. Had about four kids who were often obnoxious and threatening . Luckily I was able to exclude them from class from time to time or they just stopped coming in ( to school)


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    #139
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I would suggest some preliminary discussion with your subject peers as to what way you are all thinking. That way you can mull over their views and avoid a chaotic meeting.
    Remember nobody but the department of education can adjust Your grade.


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    #140
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Purefrank128 wrote: »
    What makes you think that students will be entitled to see what evidence has been taken into consideration in decided the initial school-based mark? What document suggests that?

    If a student appeals the final calculated grade, he/she can see the initial school-based mark and rank, but the appeal is very limited and is essentially a check for any clerical or administrative errors. I don't see anything to suggest that students will be told how the school arrived at their marks.

    Since much of the evidence is non-corporeal, i.e. teachers' professional judgement, there is no way that students could or should expect to be able to see it.


    This is insane. Any student prepared to challenged this will drive a coach and four (with the words GDPR written on the side) through the make-it-up-as-we-go-along-and-change-as-soon-as-we-are-challenged system.

    The results are the student's, not the teacher's, not the Principal's, not the Dept of Education's. Any teacher worth their salt should not have a problem explaining where they came up with results and judgements and would be well advised to be ready to do so.

    It is in the nature of the Irish public service to be secretive but that won't wash in this situation. Schools will not be in a position to be fudge this one and say students are not entitled to their own information. That's like saying you can't have your own school report.


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    #141
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    Rosita wrote: »
    This is insane. Any student prepared to challenged this will drive a coach and four (with the words GDPR written on the side) through the make-it-up-as-we-go-along-and-change-as-soon-as-we-are-challenged system.

    The results are the student's, not the teacher's, not the Principal's, not the Dept of Education's. Any teacher worth their salt should not have a problem explaining where they came up with results and judgements and would be well advised to be ready to do so.

    It is in the nature of the Irish public service to be secretive but that won't wash in this situation. Schools will not be in a position to be fudge this one and say students are not entitled to their own information. That's like saying you can't have your own school report.

    I’m not sure I agree with that. If that’s the case ‘professional judgement’ goes out the window. You’re essentially saying all evidence has to be tangible and quantifiable.
    How do you put a percentage on an opinion?


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    #142
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    Letting students see the ranking is also unwise. Diligent Denis aghast at not making the top 10 while lazy Lorraine is perched in 8th place.
    A recipe for disaster.
    Either trust teachers or don’t.The student has the opportunity to resit any exam they’re not happy with.


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    #143
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    I’m not sure I agree with that. If that’s the case ‘professional judgement’ goes out the window. You’re essentially saying all evidence has to be tangible and quantifiable.
    How do you put a percentage on an opinion?

    Professional judgement doesn't go out the window. It will just need to be overtly defensible if required, and not shrouded in secrecy.


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    #144
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Rosita wrote: »
    This is insane. Any student prepared to challenged this will drive a coach and four (with the words GDPR written on the side) through the make-it-up-as-we-go-along-and-change-as-soon-as-we-are-challenged system.

    The results are the student's, not the teacher's, not the Principal's, not the Dept of Education's. Any teacher worth their salt should not have a problem explaining where they came up with results and judgements and would be well advised to be ready to do so.

    It is in the nature of the Irish public service to be secretive but that won't wash in this situation. Schools will not be in a position to be fudge this one and say students are not entitled to their own information. That's like saying you can't have your own school report.

    But how do you prove professional judgement? The document clearly distinguishes between evidence, and records of evidence. All relevant evidence is to be used, whether a record exists or not.


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    #145
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »
    Letting students see the ranking is also unwise. Diligent Denis aghast at not making the top 10 while lazy Lorraine is perched in 8th place.
    A recipe for disaster.
    Either trust teachers or don’t.The student has the opportunity to resit any exam they’re not happy with.

    I do not see point of the ranking from the student's perspective. No doubt it's to be used by the DES in some statistical trickery but I don't see what value it is to a student and risks being an irritation to students.


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    #146
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »
    But how do you prove professional judgement? The document clearly distinguishes between evidence, and records of evidence. All relevant evidence is to be used, whether a record exists or not.

    You don't prove it. It's not a matter of fact and not subject to proof. You demonstrate how it was arrived at and what the judgement was based on and prove that it was reasonable and rational. It's standard stuff for teachers who do it all the time. The stakes are just a little higher now that's all.


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    #147
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Rosita wrote: »
    You don't prove it. It's not a matter of fact and not subject to proof. You demonstrate how it was arrived at and what the judgement was based on and prove that it was reasonable and rational. It's standard stuff for teachers who do it all the time. The stakes are just a little higher now that's all.

    I'm well aware what's standard practice, thanks. The poster stated that students couldn't expect to see non-corporeal evidence. You say it has to be overtly defensible. I'm asking how? It is clear even on this thread that what one teacher considers reasonable and rational is considered unacceptable to others. If the student is going to be able to challenge professional judgement, which is not based on any agreed guidelines or standard procedures, then I think your belief that this will be simply a matter of explanation is naive.


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    #148
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Rosita wrote: »
    You don't prove it. It's not a matter of fact and not subject to proof. You demonstrate how it was arrived at and what the judgement was based on and prove that it was reasonable and rational. It's standard stuff for teachers who do it all the time. The stakes are just a little higher now that's all.

    I appreciate your concerns. All valid. Look we know this is a hobbled together process. A kid taking legal action will be rare especially given they have the chance to take a re sit . I'm fortunate in that I can't see any of my class protesting plus so long as you are not way below their grades avg they don't have a huge amount to complain about


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    #149
    Blondini
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭Blondini


    Tensions are rising here.

    I have a few students who I will have to fail, based on available evidence.

    I have a maths department meeting tomorrow off which I'm the lead.
    We can see each other's results according to the guidelines.

    If I feel they were too lenient or too strict, do I adjust accordingly.


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    #150
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

    You say it has to be overtly defensible. I'm asking how?

    Lawyers will probably advise on that in due course. But the idea that someone could potentially pull a mark out if their rear end and not have it capable of being challenged is fanciful.


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    #151
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    Rosita wrote: »
    Lawyers will probably advise on that in due course. But the idea that someone could potentially pull a mark out if their rear end and not have it capable of being challenged is fanciful.

    Are you aware of the other stages of the process?
    Tha alignment meeting?
    The Principal’s role?
    Nobody will be pulling results out of their rear end.


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