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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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    #182
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    devnull wrote: »
    Generally most re-brand exercises tend to be used in order to make a break with the past and start afresh and shake off any perceptions with the old brand that people may have which in turn makes them more likely to try and use said company again as they don't link the new brand with past bad experiences.

    No wonder CIE try it every 7-10 years :pac: Only BE has remained reasonably consistent over the years

    In terms of keeping that DB livery and modifying it, the yellow is hideous and way too loud. It's the colour equivalent of on street noise pollution IMO.

    Take a leaf out of Londons book and use a symbolic colour, in Irelands case green is the obvious choice and is a comfortable colour on the eye as well.


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    #183
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Claude Wilton wrote: »
    London simplified the mess of 1990s private liveries back to the traditional red.

    Probably too radically traditional for marketing and PR people to revert to the classic green and eau-de-nil livery that signified Dublin buses for years after the war Emergency

    There were number of bus companies in the outer suburbs competing with each other and LT. However in central London it was nearly all LT. Even still to this day in places like Watford there are non TFL bus companies.


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    #184
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    hardanro wrote: »
    I don't think there are any recent improvements in public transport.

    Leap, Real time information, on-board Wifi and recently USB sockets and on-board passenger information have certainly helped in relation to public transport, as has the building of LUAS Cross City and the opening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel.
    Now 4-5 buses pass by without stopping between 8 and 9, and no sign of DB thinking of adjusting their fleet or increasing frequency to solve this problem. That's why people doesn't want to give up their car for a public transport. It's not an image problem, DB just doesn't have the capacity and the professionalism to handle more people.

    It's a number of things, you need to sort out the infrastructure and the technical aspects of the service such as the ones you point out of course and that is what BusConnects is setting out to do, but you also need to show people that the old ways are dead and this isn't DB as it always was, and it's a fresh start because some people do have negative perceptions bore out over years of a service that wasn't meeting their needs that they will always link to DB, even if it's wrong.

    You say it doesn't have an image problem but straight away you indicate that it has a bad image and one of not having the capacity and professionalism to handle more people which you will most likely keep with you forever more and every time you see a Dublin Bus you will think of that and many people have similar views as you and they won't die in an instant, despite the fact the capacity is not down to Dublin Bus and they are more professional now than they ever have been.

    This year the Dublin Bus fleet is being increased by 30 buses to increase capacity and next year the orbital and local routes to be operated by Go-Ahead are being increased by 35% when it comes to frequency with Dublin Bus redeploying approx 100 vehicles to other routes so hopefully it should see a substantial increase in capacity.
    If you are used to drive 45 minutes to work, would you give up your car in favor of a public transport where you wait that time only to get on a bus?

    And that is why Bus Connects is such an important plan, it can revolutionize public transport and deal with congestion, a better route network, better ticketing and starting things from scratch to some degree rather than keep sticking plasters over a system which works for some but for an awful lot of people it does not work for.

    The whole system has needed to be overhauled properly and fully for many years and it seems like we MAY be getting that sometime soon and if we are going to do that and get as many people as we can switching to public transport, I really believe that not only do we need to leave behind the bad things with the service itself, but also shed the image that the current service has.


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    #185
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    devnull wrote: »
    You say it doesn't have an image problem but straight away you indicate that it has a bad image and one of not having the capacity and professionalism to handle more people which you will most likely keep with you forever more and every time you see a Dublin Bus you will think of that and many people have similar views as you and they won't die in an instant, despite the fact the capacity is not down to Dublin Bus and they are more professional now than they ever have been.

    This year the Dublin Bus fleet is being increased by 30 buses to increase capacity and next year the orbital and local routes to be operated by Go-Ahead are being increased by 35% when it comes to frequency with Dublin Bus redeploying approx 100 vehicles to other routes so hopefully it should .


    Dublin bus are nowhere near the level of professionalism that a reliable service requires, left sitting on a bus for 20 minutes waiting for a driver changeover. Same old same old.

    Bus connects is doomed because once the fanfares have faded dubin bus will fall back down to their usual level of service and changing buses will be a disaster


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    #186
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,340 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The new website is up now with the new company logo & corporate colours.

    The new logo looks great.

    logo.png

    GA are sticking with purple, white & grey on the website. It looks similar to the NTA look.

    https://www.go-aheaddublin.ie/


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    #187
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    So it seems that things are moving forward, despite some of the rumours that we have seen to the contrary.

    I hope that they do not have a seperate website for their services, I really hope it all goes through TransportForIreland


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    #188
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    devnull wrote: »
    So it seems that things are moving forward, despite some of the rumours that we have seen to the contrary.

    I hope that they do not have a seperate website for their services, I really hope it all goes through TransportForIreland

    Won't happen,

    If services etc are disrupted , they need to be announced everywhere as much as possible

    If I'm waiting for an 18 bus that is cancelled, it will need to be announced by them , by their website and Twitter etc

    Tfi will not give control of their website for this company to give info, and if its a case that go ahead will contact to to post the information it will take too much time and there will be communication errors etc.

    Not worth the hassle


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    #189
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Won't happen,

    If services etc are disrupted , they need to be announced everywhere as much as possible

    If I'm waiting for an 18 bus that is cancelled, it will need to be announced by them , by their website and Twitter etc

    Tfi will not give control of their website for this company to give info, and if its a case that go ahead will contact to to post the information it will take too much time and there will be communication errors etc.

    Not worth the hassle

    I have been stated this a number of months back that if GA are going to take over routes for it to be done properly the NTA is going to need its own central control, ibus system, revenue protection and bus inspectors. All of this is currently provided by DB which makes logical sense presently as its the sole operator of PSO bus services in the GDA.

    This will be a mammoth task as the NTA will need to recruit staff and most would likely have to convince DB staff to transfer over and given their current stance towards the NTA that would be highly unlikely. TFL have all this in place however it took TFL quite some time to master all that taking from the late 80s to the mid 00s before all that was fully in place.

    Some of the posters on this thread believe that all this can be done in less than 18 months its not going to happen in such a short space of time. Unless its going a rushed half arsed attempt.


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    #190
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    Stephen15 wrote: »

    This will be a mammoth task as the NTA will need to recruit staff and most would likely have to convince DB staff to transfer over and given their current stance towards the NTA that would be highly unlikely.
    Have heard of zero interest in this other than a few close to retirement who have said maybe if DB offer redundancy package to cut the number of staff they might take it and then go work for go ahead,
    There might be a few new DB drivers who would move over to get marked in.
    I guess it depends on the pay and rosters.


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    #191
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bebeman wrote: »
    Have heard of zero interest in this other than a few close to retirement who have said maybe if DB offer redundancy package to cut the number of staff they might take it and then go work for go ahead,
    There might be a few new DB drivers who would move over to get marked in.
    I guess it depends on the pay and rosters.

    Btw I'm not even talking about drivers here. I'm talking about other staff such as revenue protection and central control. In order for the NTA to take control of bus services in a similar fashion to the TFL model or that of any other European city they will need to set up their own central control and revenue protection units. A huge task.

    Otherwise there wouldn't be a properly intergrated system meaning DB and GA will be operating off separate central control systems and revenue protection teams. Meaning the tendering would be a pointless exercise.


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    #192
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    bebeman wrote: »
    ,
    There might be a few new DB drivers who would move over to get marked in..

    It's unlikely that GA will have such inflexible and archaic work practices as marking in at all


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    #193
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bebeman wrote: »
    Have heard of zero interest in this other than a few close to retirement who have said maybe if DB offer redundancy package to cut the number of staff they might take it and then go work for go ahead,
    There might be a few new DB drivers who would move over to get marked in.
    I guess it depends on the pay and rosters.

    The arrival of GA Dublin on the driver recruitment scene,will have a significant impact upon the current Private Sector Companies operating in the Greater Dublin area.

    Take,for example the issue of pension provision,not something universally provided in the sector.....

    The NTA's Q & A published following the Announcement of the GA success is very revealing indeed.

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/search-result/?q=Q%26A&x=-6&y=-1
    2. Is the pension scheme for workers inferior under the new arrangements?

    # No. The NTA has ensured that the contract includes provisions for adequate pension arrangements for employees.
    # For staff recruited by the new service provider, the contract requires that a Pension Scheme (Defined Contribution) will be put in place whereby an employer contribution of up to 5%, matches the employee % contribution.
    # The arrangements will also offer 4 times basic salary for death in service for single members and 10 times basic salary for married members. This would apply to either staff recruited directly by the new service provider, or to any Dublin Bus employees who choose to transfer to the new service provider.

    Whatever about people who have always enjoyed a Pension Scheme,this factor alone will set the cat among many Private operators pigeons in terms of retaining their current driving staff.

    Personally,I see a considerable opportunity here for drivers and support staff willing to take on a new challenge,with permanent full time employment and a reasonable level of security.

    In the medium term,I see many of Dublin's more well established Family Run Bus & Coach Companies being taken under the GA wing,as the Individuals in charge,realize the futility of attempting to run a small business in a sector which has now seen the Rules totally altered ....;)

    I would be confident that,within two Tender Rounds,Dublins Bus Network will be operated entirely by 4 companies,one of which will be a "new,improved" Bus Atha Cliath and the other 3 comprising the "usual suspects" currently predominant in London. :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #194
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    bebeman wrote: »
    Have heard of zero interest in this other than a few close to retirement who have said maybe if DB offer redundancy package to cut the number of staff they might take it and then go work for go ahead,
    There might be a few new DB drivers who would move over to get marked in.
    I guess it depends on the pay and rosters.

    Its early days yet

    It may force DB to get their finger out and start marking drivers in quicker.

    I dont want to wait 10 years. I also dont want to leave, but getting treated as a spare for 10 years is very off putting.


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    #195
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Personally I don't agree with the whole marking in system, it's antiqued, it should pretty much be a rota system, all it does is create a divide between the people at the top of the chain and the bottom of the chain which unfortunately is a function of many unionised companies I've worked in.


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    #196
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    devnull wrote: »
    Personally I don't agree with the whole marking in system, it's antiqued, it should pretty much be a rota system, all it does is create a divide between the people at the top of the chain and the bottom of the chain which unfortunately is a function of many unionised companies I've worked in.

    The marked in system makes the rotas for the "spares" terrible as a result. If everyone was on proper rotas they'd all be sensible.

    So much for all being in it together in unions...

    I can't see any new entrant being insane enough to use such a system


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    #197
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    devnull wrote: »
    Personally I don't agree with the whole marking in system, it's antiqued, it should pretty much be a rota system, all it does is create a divide between the people at the top of the chain and the bottom of the chain which unfortunately is a function of many unionised companies I've worked in.

    New drivers have more accidents than senior drivers.
    So its good to retain drivers as long as possible.
    The only thing that keeps people in the job is getting marked in.
    Depot has 10 routes, driver hates 3 routes, indifferent about 4, likes 2 and really like 1.
    Spare drivers do all routes, they swap duties and change shift to avoid routes they hate, its a bit of a mess.
    They eventually get marked in on indifferent route and over the years move to route they like.
    You remove the marking in system and force drivers to be spare and work all routes, you will have a high turn over of staff.
    No way will drivers stick around doing day in and day out routes they despise, unless there is the prospect of never doing them again, we call that marking in.
    There are junior routes and senior routes, you at first get marked in on junior routes, and all you want to do is get of the route and on to a decent one, the senior routes.
    Do you think drivers enjoy going into the lively areas of Dublin?
    We want to get marked in away from these routes, like all jobs the new guy gets the bad jobs, and over time he moves up the ladder and some other poor bastard get the bad routes.


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    #198
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bebeman wrote: »
    New drivers have more accidents than senior drivers.
    So its good to retain drivers as long as possible.
    The only thing that keeps people in the job is getting marked in.
    Depot has 10 routes, driver hates 3 routes, indifferent about 4, likes 2 and really like 1.
    Spare drivers do all routes, they swap duties and change shift to avoid routes they hate, its a bit of a mess.
    They eventually get marked in on indifferent route and over the years move to route they like.
    You remove the marking in system and force drivers to be spare and work all routes, you will have a high turn over of staff.
    No way will drivers stick around doing day in and day out routes they despise, unless there is the prospect of never doing them again, we call that marking in.
    There are junior routes and senior routes, you at first get marked in on junior routes, and all you want to do is get of the route and on to a decent one, the senior routes.
    Do you think drivers enjoy going into the lively areas of Dublin?
    We want to get marked in away from these routes, like all jobs the new guy gets the bad jobs, and over time he moves up the ladder and some other poor bastard get the bad routes.

    So from what you're trying to say why would want to get marked in on the 27 or the 77a as those routes have a high level of antisocial behaviour or would these only be operated by spares.


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    #199
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    So from what you're trying to say why would want to get marked in on the 27 or the 77a as those routes have a high level of antisocial behaviour or would these only be operated by spares.

    They would be junior routes, every depot has them, probably a first route you would get marked in on. First chance to move the driver would take it.


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    #200
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Most of the marked in drivers got it in 6 years or less. Some got it in one year. Now it's 10 years plus. A joke of a system. Bad duties for at least 10 years.

    I hope it's one of the first things to go with bus connects or pressure from the compition.


    It should be equal. For every worker. Regardless of experience.


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    #201
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    bebeman wrote:
    New drivers have more accidents than senior drivers. So its good to retain drivers as long as possible.

    That's rubbish with no founding at all. Just making stuff up.


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    #202
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    That's rubbish with no founding at all. Just making stuff up.

    it's not rubbish, but fact with plenty of founding. not making stuff up but reality.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #203
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's not rubbish, but fact with plenty of founding. not making stuff up but reality.

    should be easy to provide proof so?


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    #204
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭markpb


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    should be easy to provide proof so?

    Hah! :) I laughed so hard that my monacle fell into my morning tea.


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    #205
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    brokenarms wrote: »
    Most of the marked in drivers got it in 6 years or less. Some got it in one year. Now it's 10 years plus. A joke of a system. Bad duties for at least 10 years.

    I hope it's one of the first things to go with bus connects or pressure from the compition.


    It should be equal. For every worker. Regardless of experience.

    No it shouldn't as everyone especially in any recent recruitment since the hire freeze knows well what the score is and are given enough warning of hours, duties and how its going to be.

    I know it can be frustrating and bad of course getting bad duties a lot but so has everyone before the new drivers.

    It shouldn't take so long and more marked in duties should be created.

    Marking in is the only reason most wait it out because I can tell you for a fact 90% wouldn't be there now if that was taken.

    Why would anyone work 30+ years and do absolutely crazy duties and have absolutely no life or social life(quality of life).


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    #206
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    That's rubbish with no founding at all. Just making stuff up.

    There is a worldwide selection of published studies of this issue.

    Much of it going back over 50 years,and,sadly behind paywalls,however the abstracts do refer.

    https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article-abstract/5/2/69/207264?redirectedFrom=PDF
    It is found that, for drivers with up to eight years' service, there is a tendency for the older men to have fewer accidents than the youngest men of the same length of service. A marked improvement in the accident rates is shown to occur with increasing experience.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3570620
    with comparable experience: younger drivers had higher accident rates than older ones. An increase of accident risk during the second year of employment after an initial decline could be detected in the younger group of drivers; the older group only showed a continuous decline.

    Added to this is decades of internal records,which in turn led to the introduction of the "Mentor" programme some years back,which has generally been welcomed by all involved.....Back in the Day,the only advice given to a new Busdriver unsure of a route was..."sure,you'll know it when ye get back !!"

    Whilst there is a significant group of those who find the actual basics ie: Shift patterns,Duty makeup,Customer types,Vehicle types and other elements,of Urban Bus Driving to be challenging,it has to be borne in mind that in Dublin Bus's case,not all of it's approx 2,600 Busdrivers find these issues to be of such importance to spur them to post online about it.

    The majority of Busdrivers,adapt,or avail of whatever adjusted patterns offer some benefits,whilst getting on with the job of earning a living.

    Urban Busdriving,of it's very nature is COMPLETELY unlike any other occupation in the Transport related field.

    A highly experienced Coach driver,transferring over to urban stage-carriage work,might flip within a week and head back to coaching as might a similiarly experienced Truck driver.

    Urban stage-carriage work demands a significant sub-set of personality and human-nature resurces which many other driving jubs never call upon,and this combinational demand often comes as a complete surprise to entrants,who may simply be expecting a "driving" job,as often described by some customers..."Sure you're only a bleedin Busdriver" ;)

    People entering the world of Busdriving,whatever the operator,have to get very comfortable,very rapidly,with these demands....if they struggle with it,then sometimes the best option is find another area which imposes less personal stress on them...Life is simply TOO short to justify spending a large chunk of it in a Job you find challenging,unrewarding and health-threatening.
    The World is a vast place,usually with options for everybody, IF they are prepared to recognise that.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #207
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Excellent post. And very true.


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    #208
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Very well said aleksmart


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    #209
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    brokenarms wrote: »
    It should be equal. For every worker. Regardless of experience.

    What are you on about, in every job the new guy gets the ****ty end of the stick, when someone new starts in the job the ****ty stick is passed on to him, and so on it goes, has been this way since time began.


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    #210
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    That's rubbish with no founding at all. Just making stuff up.

    Go into any DB depot on a thursday and you will see new drivers lined up out side the managers office, they are there to explain what happen in the accidents they were in.
    Thats a fact, any driver who posts here can verify this.


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    #211
    Kyleboy
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Kyleboy


    bebeman wrote: »
    Go into any DB depot on a thursday and you will see new drivers lined up out side the managers office, they are there to explain what happen in the accidents they were in.
    Thats a fact, any driver who posts here can verify this.

    100%correct.


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