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3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    You could always ask your TD to raise a question in the dail. I thought that the EU paid for the hulls and the DF paid for the weaponry.

    Nope, that was for the 50's from memory (why they fitted here), the 60s were paid for by us, hence the delay to the entire project when it got pushed back due to the crash. Though I wonder if it hadn't been delayed would we have got a fourth hull, as the procurement would have been done long before either the Brexit vote or the Med operations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I like the look of them new Tuo Jiang missile frigates that Taiwan has developed. Pack a hell of a punch for a 680 ton ship. Couple of them could come in right handy for inshore work and as a powerful fighting ship into the bargain!
    Classy looking bit of kit!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    Your mad for a fight Johnny.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    roundymac wrote: »
    Your mad for a fight Johnny.

    I'd stop at just mad.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I like the look of them new Tuo Jiang missile frigates that Taiwan has developed. Pack a hell of a punch for a 680 ton ship. Couple of them could come in right handy for inshore work and as a powerful fighting ship into the bargain!
    Classy looking bit of kit!

    Yeah ideal for the North Atlantic Jonno. Go back to sleep.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I was thinking of basing them for work on the east coast.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I was thinking of basing them for work on the east coast.

    are we going to war with the welsh?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    are we going to war with the welsh?

    Invade the Isle of Man, some grand pubs in Douglas!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,509 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    We invade the Isle of Mann every year for the TT.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I was thinking of basing them for work on the east coast.

    We do not have the luxury/resources of an east coast only flotilla. Besides which, a winter easterly in the Irish Sea could be every bit as bad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    are we going to war with the welsh?

    Nah, they'd be for the NI boats next time...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Will we see our naval vessels deployed to the rockall area to protect irish fishing ships if the scots carry out with there threats ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Will we see our naval vessels deployed to the rockall area to protect irish fishing ships if the scots carry out with there threats ?

    The Scots have no Navy. The Royal Navy answers to Whitehall and just at the moment I can't see them wanting any part of this spat.

    This is just hot air from various Scottish executive ministers who see a general election not far off and also some of the Scottish fisheries unions who are staunch Brexiteers.

    The British Rockall claim has never been accepted internationally and despite claims from everyone from Donegal to Torshavn its still international waters.

    We may well see INS ships tasked to perform so-called freedom of navigation patrols in the area, just to assert our position, but if the RN don't send any ships then the biggest risk is boat to boat harassment among the fishing fleet, not Cod Wars II.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Scottish fisheries ministry have said they will deploy vessels to stop all non uk vessels fishing there. I would presume the government here would not stand by and let our fishing boats be boarded and harassed . It will be interesting to see what happens


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency has 4 or 5 patrol ships, biggest is 84m and about 2,000 tons. They are not military and not armed.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    We and Scotland need to be getting along. They are very much on the same side of the Brexit fence as us and NI, and of course closest to the Irish culturally.
    Bickering over Rockall and (on the scale of the near Atlantic Ocean) the 12nm / 355 square miles around it is pathetic.

    On topic, any meaningful news of an EPV?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    This is a political issue within Scotland. The fishermens groups are staunch Brexiteers as they see some sort of bonanza from it (wrongly in my view). The Scottish executive, SNP are a remain party but the fisheries lobby is strong and they need to be seen to assert Scotland's interests, even if the rest of the World don't recognise the UK sovereignty claim over the Rockall bank.

    Its not a matter of us (or Iceland or Denmark or Spain) getting along or not with Scotland, they will have to sort this one out internally because they made their own bed here.

    The Irish Govt must protect the rights of our boats to fish here and see off this groundless bluster from certain quarters in Scotland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Townton


    sdanseo wrote: »
    We and Scotland need to be getting along. They are very much on the same side of the Brexit fence as us and NI, and of course closest to the Irish culturally.
    Bickering over Rockall and (on the scale of the near Atlantic Ocean) the 12nm / 355 square miles around it is pathetic.

    On topic, any meaningful news of an EPV?


    The idea that we and the Scots should naturally get along is baseless. It born of an Irish perception that they dislike the English we dislike the English there for we are naturally friends. Fact it we are political and culturally very different and they have rarely done much to consider our interests. Good example being the rugby World Cup bid the Scots and Welsh turned their back on us without a second thought the strongest support for us came from English rugby union (many probably also don't know that the uk government have been at odds with Scotland over this and are largely in agreement with dublin as to future relationships in regards to fishing in the area). In short we aren't the natural friends that some here seem to think and historical given their role in various periods of our history we never really have been.


  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Townton


    Savage93 wrote: »
    Sadly too true Spark.
    I wonder if Brussels will put the boot in as they have largely funded the new vessels and they are supposed to perform roles in EU waters. The present rot in the DF from lack of numbers has to be seriously impacting effectiveness, morale and , of course, ability to undertake any new UN roles .

    Weirdly, in the face of the above, 74 officers commissioned last year (15 Maltese I think) and campaign underway to take on 100 cadets in next class. The question is will there be anyone/anything for them to lead in the future??

    They took on about 100 last September if I'm not mistaken. Not sure what they are looking to take on next September could be something similar. They have certainly been expanding/renovating the cadet college (at least that's what it looked like when I was last there to cope with the increases) . But given it used to only be circa 25 a year don't know how long they will keep taking in three figures they certainly aren't short of interest. As for the navy cadets I don't know how many they are currently taking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Ahh...
    Three "frigates" that covers an utter multitude of sizes/costs, meanwhile a) the aforementioned issues with the Canterbury and b) 6? What exactly do you think we would need 6 of them for?


    And of course the whole "manpower crisis" in the DF that looks to be getting even worse over the next couple of years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Yawlboy


    sparky42 wrote: »
    If there was any support for the DF, I wonder how relatively cheap 4 Safehaven hulls would cost.

    I think the launches they are referring to were old ships boats from the PV's so probably 40+ years old. Two were retired in 2013 and the others since. They replaced them with RIBS - which is what the NS use on their ships.

    As for Safehaven, they have full order books for the next few years and the smallest boats they do are 40+ feet and €700k+ so I don't think they have anything suitable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yawlboy wrote: »
    I think the launches they are referring to were old ships boats from the PV's so probably 40+ years old. Two were retired in 2013 and the others since. They replaced them with RIBS - which is what the NS use on their ships.

    As for Safehaven, they have full order books for the next few years and the smallest boats they do are 40+ feet and €700k+ so I don't think they have anything suitable.


    I agree that the Safehaven boats are much bigger/more expensive but would have much more capability and actual use for the NSR/NS than either old boats from the 40 years ago or just RIBS, but given how little attention is given to the Reserves as is I think it's RIBS forever for them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Yawlboy wrote: »
    I think the launches they are referring to were old ships boats from the PV's so probably 40+ years old. Two were retired in 2013 and the others since. They replaced them with RIBS - which is what the NS use on their ships.

    As for Safehaven, they have full order books for the next few years and the smallest boats they do are 40+ feet and €700k+ so I don't think they have anything suitable.

    They were four vessels purchased secondhand as far as I'm aware, don't think they came from the PV's. They were all different boats but similar with a wheelhouse forward and an open deck aft. As an example:
    http://trawlerphotos.co.uk/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=100816&title=m-t-l-niamh&cat=644
    They weren't replaced by RIBS, the NSR used the launches and RIBS at the same time for many years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Alkers wrote: »
    They weren't replaced by RIBS, the NSR used the launches and RIBS at the same time for many years.


    Since they are all decommissioned now they have effectively been replaced by RIBs, or rather they're gone and all that's left is RIBS


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭Alkers


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Since they are all decommissioned now they have effectively been replaced by RIBs, or rather they're gone and all that's left is RIBS

    I'm not sure that they've been decommissioned, just that they're not available for use and repairs have been deemed uneconomical.

    Agreed that all is left is RIBS!


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    The Niamh is still on the go. I pass her regularly in Dun Laoghaire.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    The Niamh is still on the go. I pass her regularly in Dun Laoghaire.

    There's no engine in her


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    Alkers wrote: »
    There's no engine in her

    What upgrades is it getting anyway???? Missile launchers :cool::cool:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    A few of those Safe haven fast attack vessels are what we need to replace them. Good shot in the arm for local defence industry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    A few of those Safe haven fast attack vessels are what we need to replace them. Good shot in the arm for local defence industry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭a/tel


    A few of those Safe haven fast attack vessels are what we need to replace them. Good shot in the arm for local defence industry.

    Too expensive for NSR budget and overpowered for them also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    And flimsy for Irish conditions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    And flimsy for Irish conditions.
    Given they test the boats in Cork Harbour in fairly extreme sea states, I'm not sure that I'd call them flimsy to be fair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I see that Babcocks have won the competition for the 5 RN light frigates with the Arrowhead design based upon the Absalon/ Ivor Huitveld class. Just the ticket for a new flagship for the NS in my opinion. Interesting thing is they are talking about up-gunning the new River class OPV's as an interim measure while awaiting delivery, by fitting missiles and more sophisticated electronics. Shows it could be done with the P60's as well and a damned good idea to boot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Agree about the Arrowhead, but why would the 60's need missiles? Planning to sail up Strangford lock blaring 'a nation once again? '


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Given they test the boats in Cork Harbour in fairly extreme sea states, I'm not sure that I'd call them flimsy to be fair.

    You'll notice they never drive them too hard though and they never actually leave the harbour for a passage down the coast in these same conditions.

    It's not that difficult to go out into a very large swell, point the bow into the weather and keep the engines ticking over enough to keep that heading. Looks dramatic and makes for fantastic pictures/footage. It's what's known at sea as 'dodging', done for decades now by fishing boats and offshore industry ships alike.

    I think the news that Dublin port are replacing their Safehaven Marine pilot boats with British built boats is a shame, but I hear the feedback is disappointing on the Safehaven boats and the Dublin pilot boats do go out to sea in all weathers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Agree about the Arrowhead, but why would the 60's need missiles? Planning to sail up Strangford lock blaring 'a nation once again? '


    I'd hold off on the Arrowheads until we see if they can actually meet the costs/specs/time of the contract, along with the point that so much of it wouldn't be spec'd in an Irish ship and the minor fact that it's at least 2.5 times what may have been budgeted for the EPV.


    As for upgrading the 60's, arguable if we were doing more out of EEZ operations in potential threat zones replacing the manned secondaries with remotes that also had some missile capability might be worth a look, but given that's unlikely right now it's not going to happen.


    Also I see the Beckett is being sent to New York as "part of the UN bid"...Why?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Yawlboy


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    You'll notice they never drive them too hard though and they never actually leave the harbour for a passage down the coast in these same conditions.

    It's not that difficult to go out into a very large swell, point the bow into the weather and keep the engines ticking over enough to keep that heading. Looks dramatic and makes for fantastic pictures/footage. It's what's known at sea as 'dodging', done for decades now by fishing boats and offshore industry ships alike.

    I think the news that Dublin port are replacing their Safehaven Marine pilot boats with British built boats is a shame, but I hear the feedback is disappointing on the Safehaven boats and the Dublin pilot boats do go out to sea in all weathers.

    I beg to differ on this, those boats are hammered at sea all the time.

    The Pilots in Cork I've spoken to are very happy with the boats. The repeat orders from windfarms, ferry operators in Scotland and Scandinavia and the fact their order books are full for 3 years would indicate that most operators are happy with the boats.

    Their latest boat did a delivery voyage with refueling and a one night stop over from Cork to Sardinia with no troubles.

    I heard that Dublin port purchased a UK built boat as it was significantly cheaper as they wanted a first export order.

    The fact the UK MoD, Polish Military and multiple other ports are happy and keep ordering is a good sign for a small Irish boat builder


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    I know two Dublin Port Coxwains and they don't speak well of their boats at all, they are very much looking forward to new and more reliable craft. I have only ever been on one of the commercial angling boats and the deck had delaminated in a large part of the after-deck area.

    All academic however as these are not mil-spec vessels in any form.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    sparky42 wrote: »
    I




    Also I see the Beckett is being sent to New York as "part of the UN bid"...Why?
    It's called showing the flag.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,990 ✭✭✭sparky42


    roundymac wrote: »
    It's called showing the flag.


    To New York and Boston and then back again? Given the stated purpose is to help the UN seat bid I'm more than a bit doubtful that Beckett would make much difference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    sparky42 wrote: »
    I'd hold off on the Arrowheads until we see if they can actually meet the costs/specs/time of the contract, along with the point that so much of it wouldn't be spec'd in an Irish ship and the minor fact that it's at least 2.5 times what may have been budgeted for the EPV.


    As for upgrading the 60's, arguable if we were doing more out of EEZ operations in potential threat zones replacing the manned secondaries with remotes that also had some missile capability might be worth a look, but given that's unlikely right now it's not going to happen.


    Also I see the Beckett is being sent to New York as "part of the UN bid"...Why?

    Party venue. No more, no less.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    sparky42 wrote: »
    Also I see the Beckett is being sent to New York as "part of the UN bid"...Why?

    Gunboat diplomacy.



    Ba dum tish...................


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭mikeym


    sparky42 wrote: »
    To New York and Boston and then back again? Given the stated purpose is to help the UN seat bid I'm more than a bit doubtful that Beckett would make much difference.

    Functions I presume.

    Its still great to have a P60 ship cross the pond.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It doesn't really tally with the climate change theme of the Taoiseach's scheduled speech to the General Assembly, having a naval ship sail 5,000kms for nothing more than a photo op and a party venue.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    It doesn't really tally with the climate change theme of the Taoiseach's scheduled speech to the General Assembly, having a naval ship sail 5,000kms for nothing more than a photo op and a party venue.
    Yer one that sailed across had to have another crew flown across to sail the boat back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Savage93


    Yer one that sailed across had to have another crew flown across to sail the boat back.

    show evidence


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,357 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Savage93 wrote: »
    show evidence

    Der Spiegel published the story, they are amongst Europe's most highly regarded investigative journalism titles.

    By the way, it occurs to me I was wrong about the 5,000 kms for the Beckett, it has to come back too, so make it 10.


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