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Bloody Sunday soldier to be charged with murder

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    #242
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Certain regular defenders of FG defending the behaviour of the British authorities, curious.


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    #243
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    political analyst wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/saville-report-found-that-soldier-f-was-at-heart-of-the-shooting-37915790.html

    Given that Soldier F lives outside the UK, it might be more difficult to bring him to court, i.e. extradition, lapse of time. Considering the state of his health, will he even live long enough to stand trial?

    Interesting link. It mentions Soldier F claimed""The people I shot are the petrol bombers or a person who had a weapon." Were there petrol bombers that day? I never heard of any petrol bombers? in the photo earlier in the thread taken minutes before the firing started, it only showed soldiers sheltering behind vehicles and hundreds of stones on the road / people in the open throwing rocks and stones at them. It does not show petrol bombs?


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    #244
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Interesting link. It mentions Soldier F claimed""The people I shot are the petrol bombers or a person who had a weapon." Were there petrol bombers that day? I never heard of any petrol bombers? in the photo earlier in the thread taken minutes before the firing started, it only showed soldiers sheltering behind vehicles and hundreds of stones on the road / people in the open throwing rocks and stones at them. It does not show petrol bombs?

    You are going to run a 200 million inquiry again on stunning new evidence you have found to prove your theory that the British were a great influence in Ireland?

    My duvet is calling!


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    #245
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    janfebmar wrote:
    Interesting link. It mentions Soldier F claimed""The people I shot are the petrol bombers or a person who had a weapon." Were there petrol bombers that day? I never heard of any petrol bombers? in the photo earlier in the thread taken minutes before the firing started, it only showed soldiers sheltering behind vehicles and hundreds of stones on the road / people in the open throwing rocks and stones at them. It does not show petrol bombs?


    Even though the Saville enquiry found the murdered individuals were innocent you still wish to sully their reputations? Why?


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    #246
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,975 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Stop lying.

    Inconvenient truth perhaps?


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    #247
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,975 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why are you trying to excuse slaughter? Seriously, I know you hate anybody who stood for Irish freedom (As long as they are a generation away) but this was a killing of innocent people.

    Ah, so you get caught out by your very own words, so instead of engaging with the questions I put to you, you move the goal posts and start a strawman attack on me personally.

    I know your history in defending PIRA atrocities, let's park that to one side for a minute and get to the meat of the other question.

    What is your reasoning behind your opinion that the British government are 'infinitely' MORE responsible than say the IRA bombers who killed 31 civilians in Omagh?


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    #248
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    markodaly wrote: »
    Inconvenient truth perhaps?

    You're either lying or just don't have a clue. One way or another it's simply wrong.


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    #249
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You are going to run a 200 million inquiry again on stunning new evidence you have found

    I read a report in the paper, I gave you the link, I wonder was it true or not? It was a very large crowd of people, nobody is claiming that the innocent people shot were associated with petrol bombs, I am just wondering if there were petrol bombs at all that exploded that day in Derry or is it a figment of soldiers F imagination?
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Even though the Saville enquiry found the murdered individuals were innocent you still wish to sully their reputations?

    Nobody is sullying their reputations. They should not have been shot.
    As the Saville report you mention says:

    Four nail bombs found in Donaghey's pockets were not planted after his death, Saville concludes, but he adds: "We are sure that Gerald Donaghey was not preparing or attempting to throw a nail bomb when he was shot; and we are equally sure that he was not shot because of his possession of nail bombs. He was shot while trying to escape from the soldiers."

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/15/bloody-sunday-inquiry-derry-massacre

    Donaghey and the others should not have been shot.


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    #250
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Ah, so you get caught out by your very own words, so instead of engaging with the questions I put to you, you move the goal posts and start a strawman attack on me personally.

    I know your history in defending PIRA atrocities, let's park that to one side for a minute and get to the meat of the other question.

    What is your reasoning behind your opinion that the British government are 'infinitely' MORE responsible than say the IRA bombers who killed 31 civilians in Omagh?

    I have never 'defended' any violence. I understand why it happened, which you confuse with condoning it.

    Both the Irish government and the British (primarily) were the responsible ones. Both of them recognised what was happening (read your history) and both of them to varying degrees relinquished their responsibilities and allowed the lid to come of decades of strife and community division.
    Everyone has responsibility for what happened after, but those who allowed it to happen, knowingly are ultimately responsible. They eventually tokk responsibility in the GFA and sorted it.

    Those who bring that conflict back through Brexit will be similarly responsible.


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    #251
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Do you mean one does it outside the laws of society and of the geneva convention, the other is employed by a democratic government and generally ( well, most of the over 300,000 did) acts within the geneva convention?

    no. i meant one ends up fighting due to external influences on the environment of their upbringing and one chooses to get paid to be told who to kill.


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    #252
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    maccored wrote: »
    no. i meant one ends up fighting due to external influences on the environment of their upbringing
    But surely one has a choice to join a para-military group or not? During the troubles the SDLP was the biggest nationalist group (and indeed some Catholics voted for other parties eg Alliance etc etc ) so most Catholics did not "end up fighting due to external influences on the environment of their upbringing"?
    maccored wrote: »
    and one chooses to get paid to be told who to kill.
    If you are an 18 year old working class lad in Sunderland or Hull there may not have been many other options in the 70's or 80's. Would you accept most of the over 300,000 who served in the B. army in N. Ireland did not kill, and those who did not kill got paid too?
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have never 'defended' any violence. .

    See post 872. You said for example " 'Most' IRA soldiers obeyed the law too and engaged with the British Army, only a few bad apples did stuff they shouldn't have. i.e. Kingsmill, Jerry McCabe etc. "

    You were caught out yet again.


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    #253
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,975 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    You're either lying or just don't have a clue. One way or another it's simply wrong.

    It's a simple fact that Republicans killed more Catholics than the Security Forces.

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/

    boy-with-his-fingers-in-his-ears-picture-id103732652


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    #254
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,975 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have never 'defended' any violence.

    Then why do you excuse the PIRA Kingsmill massacre as well as others as just a few bad apples in among a group of normal honorable Republicans?

    Both the Irish government and the British (primarily) were the responsible ones. Both of them recognised what was happening (read your history) and both of them to varying degrees relinquished their responsibilities and allowed the lid to come of decades of strife and community division.
    Everyone has responsibility for what happened after, but those who allowed it to happen, knowingly are ultimately responsible. They eventually took responsibility in the GFA and sorted it.

    So, the British and Irish governments had a crystal ball and knew in advance the cycle of violence the North was going to into?

    I do know my history, probably better than you, and what we see throughout the world in various conflict zones are innocuous events that spark off something much more serious and sinister.

    Who knew that the fall of the Shah of Iran would spark 50 years of Islamic conflict with the West?
    Who knew when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot and killed that it would spark off a conflict which not only resulted in WWI but also the rise of Nazism, Communism, WWII and the Cold War...
    Who knew that when the British Army was deployed (at the request of the Catholic population mind you), that it would have escalated the situation.


    But No.10 Downing street knew all along what was going to happen in the North, so they are more responsible, I guess. :pac:


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    #255
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    zapitastas wrote: »
    It will have to take place in the north, so probably Belfast

    That is if it ever happens

    A trial by jury?


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    #256
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    A trial by jury?

    I wouldn't have thought so


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    #257
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    markodaly wrote: »
    Then why do you excuse the PIRA Kingsmill massacre as well as others as just a few bad apples in among a group of normal honorable Republicans?




    So, the British and Irish governments had a crystal ball and knew in advance the cycle of violence the North was going to into?

    I do know my history, probably better than you, and what we see throughout the world in various conflict zones are innocuous events that spark off something much more serious and sinister.

    Who knew that the fall of the Shah of Iran would spark 50 years of Islamic conflict with the West?
    Who knew when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot and killed that it would spark off a conflict which not only resulted in WWI but also the rise of Nazism, Communism, WWII and the Cold War...
    Who knew that when the British Army was deployed (at the request of the Catholic population mind you), that it would have escalated the situation.


    But No.10 Downing street knew all along what was going to happen in the North, so they are more responsible, I guess. :pac:

    Quick the British state is being criticized for the cold blooded murder of civilians. Divert and distract and get this thread closed like the last one was


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    #258
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭howiya


    markodaly wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that Republicans killed more Catholics than the Security Forces.

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/

    That's not what you said when you were initially called out on it. The link you provided will tell you that you were wrong.


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    #259
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,975 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    zapitastas wrote: »
    Quick the British state is being criticized for the cold blooded murder of civilians. Divert and distract and get this thread closed like the last one was

    Not at all.

    Soldier F and the rest of them, including the immediate commanders, should face the courts and have the book thrown at them. By all means, lock them up and throw away the key.

    My beef is with the mindset displayed by the likes of FrancieBrady where on one hand the British are 'infinitely more' to blame for the situation while the Republicans perpetrators of terrorism, were by the most part law-abiding and honorable, with just a few bad apples perpetrating things like Kingsmill and Omagh. Odd logic.

    Not only this, the British knowingly knew what would happen when they deployed soldiers to the streets of NI? Some clairvoyant $hite right there. It is a fact that the Catholic population wanted British soldiers to be deployed but we all knew how that worked out.


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    #260
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,293 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    markodaly wrote: »
    Not at all.

    Soldier F and the rest of them, including the immediate commanders, should face the courts and have the book thrown at them. By all means, lock them up and throw away the key.

    My beef is with the mindset displayed by the likes of FrancieBrady where on one hand the British are 'infinitely more' to blame for the situation while the Republicans perpetrators of terrorism, were by the most part law-abiding and honorable, with just a few bad apples perpetrating things like Kingsmill and Omagh. Odd logic.

    Not only this, the British knowingly knew what would happen when they deployed soldiers to the streets of NI? Some clairvoyant $hite right there. It is a fact that the Catholic population wanted British soldiers to be deployed but we all knew how that worked out.

    You do know that not all Republicans were terrorists right?


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    #261
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    markodaly wrote: »
    Not at all.

    Soldier F and the rest of them, including the immediate commanders, should face the courts and have the book thrown at them. By all means, lock them up and throw away the key.

    My beef is with the mindset displayed by the likes of FrancieBrady where on one hand the British are 'infinitely more' to blame for the situation while the Republicans perpetrators of terrorism, were by the most part law-abiding and honorable, with just a few bad apples perpetrating things like Kingsmill and Omagh. Odd logic.

    Not only this, the British knowingly knew what would happen when they deployed soldiers to the streets of NI? Some clairvoyant $hite right there. It is a fact that the Catholic population wanted British soldiers to be deployed but we all knew how that worked out.

    The British state created a sectarianism statelet and then facilitated 50 years of discrimination and oppression. When the natives got restless they deployed measures that were effective in other colonies to subdue the population which culminated in Ballymurphy and the bogside massacre. Their grubby dirty war involved widespread collusion with loyalists who almost always killed innocent civilians. state actors that are tasked with protecting a population begin to kill them


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    #262
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,975 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    zapitastas wrote: »
    The British state created a sectarianism statelet and then facilitated 50 years of discrimination and oppression. When the natives got restless they deployed measures that were effective in other colonies to subdue the population which culminated in Ballymurphy and the bogside massacre. Their grubby dirty war involved widespread collusion with loyalists who almost always killed innocent civilians. state actors that are tasked with protecting a population begin to kill them

    That may be a great soundbite for An Poblacht. However, the reality of the formation of the state of NI and its history is a lot more complicated than that.

    The public record of the debate that happened in the HoC is quite clear on the matter that most MP's and Lords wanted Ulster to eventually be subsumed into the Free State. Of course, it never happened that way.


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    #263
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,519 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    John Hume (imo a statesman, but a darling of those with no solutions) said after Bloody Sunday that a United Ireland was the only solution. We are still facing (if you are a Unionist) or waiting (if you are a republican/nationalist) for that question being asked. The guns are silent, but can Britain luxuriate in games with the EU and expect that to remain the same?

    John Hume above anybody else on this Island was responsible for the GFA. Your no solutions comment is typical of Sinners trying to rewrite history.


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    #264
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Then why do you excuse the PIRA Kingsmill massacre as well as others as just a few bad apples in among a group of normal honorable Republicans?

    I condemned Kingsmill and all acts like it. The fact are the facts about those acts.
    I also have no problem accepting (and have) that actions on Bloody Sunday were carried out by rogue officer and soldiers of the British state and that it was subsequently whitewashed by that state too.

    So, the British and Irish governments had a crystal ball and knew in advance the cycle of violence the North was going to into?

    I do know my history, probably better than you, and what we see throughout the world in various conflict zones are innocuous events that spark off something much more serious and sinister.

    Who knew that the fall of the Shah of Iran would spark 50 years of Islamic conflict with the West?
    Who knew when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot and killed that it would spark off a conflict which not only resulted in WWI but also the rise of Nazism, Communism, WWII and the Cold War...
    Who knew that when the British Army was deployed (at the request of the Catholic population mind you), that it would have escalated the situation.


    But No.10 Downing street knew all along what was going to happen in the North, so they are more responsible, I guess. :pac:

    You know nothing of the history of the north...you THINK you do. If you read the papers of the time you would find this:


    "History demonstrates the failure of English intervention in Irish affairs... The situation is explosive; civil war is not impossible."
    There is much more detailed analysis elsewhere but it is all littered by the very clear fact that the British knew the implications of what they were doing and NOT doing.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jan/01/northernireland.freedomofinformation


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    #265
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    John Hume above anybody else on this Island was responsible for the GFA. Your no solutions comment is typical of Sinners trying to rewrite history.

    :rolleyes: I said Hume was a 'statesman' - conferring on him, praise for his role.(He was pivotal, no doubt, but 'responsible above' anybody else is typical of a comment by those who are terminally biased)

    I said he is the 'darling' of those who have no solutions and who fail again and again to give credit to all of those who evolved the GFA into the representative agreement it was.


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    #266
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,072 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    zapitastas wrote: »
    The British state created a sectarianism statelet and then facilitated 50 years of discrimination and oppression. When the natives got restless they deployed measures that were effective in other colonies to subdue the population which culminated in Ballymurphy and the bogside massacre. Their grubby dirty war involved widespread collusion with loyalists who almost always killed innocent civilians. state actors that are tasked with protecting a population begin to kill them

    It is quite clear that the British knew not only what was going on in the statelet they created but who was in the wrong.
    There was supposed to be a version of PR to prevent Unionists setting up a sectarian state but they stood by and watched as the Unionists changed that and the gerrymandering vote rigging that followed.

    Labour were nice and understanding and all that but ineffectual when in power and it is no surprise at all that the Tories ruled the roost when it inevitably went up in flames.


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    #267
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    janfebmar wrote:
    Nobody is sullying their reputations. They should not have been shot. As the Saville report you mention says:


    Do you accept 14 innocent civilians were murdered by the Paras? You seem to have a problem acknowledging what took place on Bloody Sunday was state sanctioned murder.


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    #268
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Do you accept 14 innocent civilians were murdered by the Paras?

    Of course innocent people were killed that day by the Paras. In this picture taken minutes before the firing on Bloody Sunday you can see all of the stones / rocks / missiles on the road, but that does not justify the firing or murders that took place after that. If if some of the Paras were suffering ptsd or whatever from one of their own being killed previously (like the soldier killed by the petrol bomb in Derry the previous year), that is no excuse for the behaviour of some of those Paras that day.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bloody-sunday-paras-were-the-wrong-regiment-in-the-wrong-place-1.2424550


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    #269
    citytillidie
    Registered Users Posts: 22,017 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    British government are rushing an act through parliament that will have anybody prosecuted for anything that happened before 1973 can also get early release. This case will never get to court they will find something to protect their own.

    I see there is a call for ex army men to desend on Derry which if happens will not end well

    ******



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    #270
    dermo888
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭dermo888


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It is quite clear that the British knew not only what was going on in the statelet they created but who was in the wrong.
    There was supposed to be a version of PR to prevent Unionists setting up a sectarian state but they stood by and watched as the Unionists changed that and the gerrymandering vote rigging that followed.

    Labour were nice and understanding and all that but ineffectual when in power and it is no surprise at all that the Tories ruled the roost when it inevitably went up in flames.

    The original concept was fine with Sir Edward Carson who was a relatively moderate Unionist. It was the mob that followed - the fascist Craig, and senile Beaverbrooke. They stood by and administered an incredibly nasty right wing fascist statelet.

    The cracks began in the aftermath of the second world war, and the various social revolutionary reforms that followed, from Health, to Education, to Housing and more besides.

    Terence O'Neill became Prime Minister and saw things could'nt carry on as they were. He tried to build bridges and reconcile. But the festering wounds of resentment, polarisation, and much more besides were too much. It exploded. It did'nt take much, but once it exploded, it was demon released which could'nt be slain so easily.

    Those demons are'nt dead. They are sleeping,


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    #271
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    janfebmar wrote:
    Of course innocent people were killed that day by the Paras. In this picture taken minutes before the firing on Bloody Sunday you can see all of the stones / rocks / missiles on the road, but that does not justify the firing or murders that took place after that. If if some of the Paras were suffering ptsd or whatever from one of their own being killed previously (like the soldier killed by the petrol bomb in Derry the previous year), that is no excuse for the behaviour of some of those Paras that day.

    Sweet Jesus you can't even admit 14 people were murdered by the Para's without trying to link some justification. Disgusting.


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