Why no town square in Dublin?

Gardesana Pecher · 17-11-2020 9:16am

We are just lucky that the British built green parks. Otherwise we would have a very unimaginative city.

whisky_galore · 17-11-2020 10:51am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Never heard of this happening though. The poster was also saying how dangerous the cycle path in clontarf is. Never heard of anything happening there involving bikes either. Except for when a guy in a car mounted it last year and killed some poor woman in her 30s.

It has happened elsewhere. Google and incidents worldwide pop up. To say that a cyclist has never killed a pedestrian is a myth.

Simply put, people selfishly do whatever the fcuk they like on bikes as the chances of getting caught by Plod are minimal.

17-11-2020 12:49pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

It has happened elsewhere. Google and incidents worldwide pop up. To say that a cyclist has never killed a pedestrian is a myth.

Simply put, people selfishly do whatever the fcuk they like on bikes as the chances of getting caught by Plod are minimal.

The only fatality in an incident involving a cyclist and pedestrian in Ireland, EVER, resulted in the cyclist dying. This was in the Phoenix Park in late 2017, I think, and was the first incident ever where there was a fatality in such a crash.

Since then, there have been 430+ road deaths involving cars. 11 cyclists have been killed by cars this year alone, a 1000% increase on the entirety of bike/pedestrian deaths in the history of the state. And that's when 90% of the country was sitting on their ar$es for three quarters of the year. The poster who said it's cars who kill people, not bikes, was spot on.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 1:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The only fatality in an incident involving a cyclist and pedestrian in Ireland, EVER, resulted in the cyclist dying. This was in the Phoenix Park in late 2017, I think, and was the first incident ever where there was a fatality in such a crash.

Since then, there have been 430+ road deaths involving cars. 11 cyclists have been killed by cars this year alone, a 1000% increase on the entirety of bike/pedestrian deaths in the history of the state. And that's when 90% of the country was sitting on their ar$es for three quarters of the year. The poster who said it's cars who kill people, not bikes, was spot on.

A pedestrian walked into the cycle lane, which resulted in the death of a cyclist.
People still moan about cyclists being dangerous even though they never harm anyone. To the poster above asking me to google it because it happens worldwide, well that's quite a big net you're casting to find incidents.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 1:09pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Simply put, people selfishly do whatever the fcuk they like on bikes as the chances of getting caught by Plod are minimal.

Would you say the same about people in cars? I've noticed cars breaking red lights at pretty much every light change at a junction these days. All drivers speed now and again, and there are illegally parked cars pretty much everywhere you look in the city.
I don't know why you're calling cyclists selfish, they don't cause any problems.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 1:17pm

It's not just town squares though, many suburbs and villages of Dublin don't have civic spaces or just pedestrian friendly centres, if they have a centre at all. I see Dundrum did a lot of work, and Blackrock, to make them more pedestrian friendly which is great to see.

vrusinov · 17-11-2020 1:40pm

It appears all topics in "Dublin City" must turn into bitching about cyclist from page 5 onwards.

Back on topic: lack of square in Dublin is one of the things annoys/surprises me. Yes, most of these squares are dead empty most of the time. But they are lovely when then aren't - it's great to have a space for a market, or an ice rink, or even for a protest that does not close main roads.

Re junkies: I doubt you will find a lot of unsocial behavior in the middle of a large square.

Weather argument also does not hold up: weather in Ireland is fine. Everyone who sais weather in Amsterdam is better was there only on vacation in summer.

To compare, the weather in city I'm from is very continental: it's stable +25 - +30 in summer (ugh!), rain in autumn, sleet in spring and up to -20 in winter. Still, there is big bloody square right in the center. In winter you have Christmas tree, market and ice rink, in summer you have occasional concert, government-sponsored parade (usually military), or protest (although not recently as all protectors were beaten up - it's in Russia after all). It is lovely to have a space for all of it, even if it's used just a few times a month.

17-11-2020 2:03pm

Big, wide open, cobbled squares (plazas, really) only look good if surrounded by decent architectural buildings, which are sadly lacking in Ireland. I'm pretty happy we don't have many of them......Mayor square in the IFSC and smithfield square being the only two off the top of my head (meeting house square is too small to be considered, really). Grand canal dock and Temple Bar aren't exactly green either, but you wouldn't really call them plazas.

Instead, we have the beautiful, leafy green Georgian squares, which are available to the public and are much better.
Merrion square
Mountjoy square
Fitzwilliam Square
SSG
Parnell square with the Garden of remembrance, writer's museum, chapter 1 etc.
The basin
You could even include Trinity on this list

We could do with some more open public spaces, but to say we've none already is wide of the mark.

Cienciano · 17-11-2020 2:24pm

Forget about the history of Stephens Green, but would anyone sacrifice the greenery of Stephens Green for an open square? You could have small pop up restaurants and bars during the summer, christmas markets and events during the year?

I think I would

odyssey06 · 17-11-2020 2:59pm

Cienciano wrote: »

Forget about the history of Stephens Green, but would anyone sacrifice the greenery of Stephens Green for an open square? You could have small pop up restaurants and bars during the summer, christmas markets and events during the year?
I think I would

I think I'd rather have Stephens Green as it is... all ages enjoyment.

Dublin Castle was running a christmas market last year in its courtyard.
A bit tight, but could run in summer.

And for example, Iveagh Gardens hosts pup up food events in summer such as Taste of Dublin and concerts, but it is so weather dependent, and I've been there on good days and bad.

Amirani · 17-11-2020 3:15pm

Valresnick wrote: »

Poorly designed, cyclists far to close to walkers. Have you seen the speed some of them are doing on it ? Great benefit but bad design !

I use it pretty much every day, either walking or jogging. Never come close to being hit by a cyclist, and haven't seen any collisions either.

You're obviously doing it wrong.

17-11-2020 4:25pm

Cienciano wrote: »

Forget about the history of Stephens Green, but would anyone sacrifice the greenery of Stephens Green for an open square? You could have small pop up restaurants and bars during the summer, christmas markets and events during the year?

I think I would

I'd wager that you're in the minority there, chief. The number of people who use it daily must be in the 10's of thousands. If it was simply an open air grouping of stalls with no pond or grass or fountains or bandstand or flowers or trees then the numbers would fall off a cliff, I reckon.

I mean, you already have the market in Merrion square of a Thursday. The place does be rammed, especially on a nice day. But that's a combination of a) plenty of space to lounge in the sun eating your grub and b) the fact that it's a bit of a novelty. People wouldn't be over there everyday buying lunch if it was there everyday. Once a week is grand.

Amirani wrote: »

I use it pretty much every day, either walking or jogging. Never come close to being hit by a cyclist, and haven't seen any collisions either.

You're obviously doing it wrong.

Exactly. The tragedy of the poor woman killed last year highlights this even more: In a space with literally thousands of cyclists and pedestrians cohabiting side by side on a daily basis, the only fatality involved a car.

spurious · 17-11-2020 4:52pm

Suggest those lauding the utter safety of cyclists and pedestrians mixing watch the crossing (lights AND 'lollipop') by the school on the North Strand any school morning. Watch some cyclists ignore lights and lollipops and hurtle through the crossing children.They had to bring in the lollipop folk, two of them and still some loonies who think they are in the Tour de France tear through the crossing, scattering children.

There are some utter lunatics on bicycles out there, cycling like maniacs and donning the all in black costumes with no lights at night (and yes, many loons in cars too) but absolutely sick to death of this 'cyclists can do no wrong' narrative.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 4:55pm

spurious wrote: »

Suggest those lauding the utter safety of cyclists and pedestrians mixing watch the crossing (lights AND 'lollipop') by the school on the North Strand any school morning. Watch some cyclists ignore lights and lollipops and hurtle through the crossing children.They had to bring in the lollipop folk, two of them and still some loonies who think they are in the Tour de France tear through the crossing, scattering children.

There are some utter lunatics on bicycles out there, cycling like maniacs and donning the all in black costumes with no lights at night (and yes, many loons in cars too) but absolutely sick to death of this 'cyclists can do no wrong' narrative.

I pass through it every day, again, they harm no one, regardless of how irritating people find them. They are not a danger, there's only one thing killing and maiming people on the roads.
People in black with no lights will only harm themselves too, so you don't need to worry about them.

spurious · 17-11-2020 4:56pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I pass through it every day, again, they harm no one, regardless of how irritating people find them. They are not a danger, there's only one thing killing and maiming people on the roads.
People in black with no lights will only harm themselves too, so you don't need to worry about them.

So you don't have an issue with them completely ignoring the rules of the road and endangering children?

I see.

Biker79 · 17-11-2020 4:58pm

spurious wrote: »

Suggest those lauding the utter safety of cyclists and pedestrians mixing watch the crossing (lights AND 'lollipop') by the school on the North Strand any school morning. Watch some cyclists ignore lights and lollipops and hurtle through the crossing children.They had to bring in the lollipop folk, two of them and still some loonies who think they are in the Tour de France tear through the crossing, scattering children.

There are some utter lunatics on bicycles out there, cycling like maniacs and donning the all in black costumes with no lights at night (and yes, many loons in cars too) but absolutely sick to death of this 'cyclists can do no wrong' narrative.

Because they aren't a homogenous group. For every roadcraft aware, conscientious cyclist ...there will be another who thinks of themselves as a pedestrian on two wheels.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 5:00pm

spurious wrote: »

So you don't have an issue with them completely ignoring the rules of the road and endangering children?

I see.

They're not endangering children. Show me the stats on cyclists hurting pedestrians. If you want to worry about something, look at the 3 or 4 cars that break the red lights at Ossary Road turning onto North Strand, speeding through them at every lights change. That could kill someone.

Strumms · 17-11-2020 5:07pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

I think I'd rather have Stephens Green as it is... all ages enjoyment.

Dublin Castle was running a christmas market last year in its courtyard.
A bit tight, but could run in summer.

And for example, Iveagh Gardens hosts pup up food events in summer such as Taste of Dublin and concerts, but it is so weather dependent, and I've been there on good days and bad.

Yes. It’s a beautiful and historic amenity, it should be left as is for people to keep enjoying...

iveagh gardens is a great spot for these reasons you’ve outlined...it’s an often forgotten about space but its really quiet and tranquil and usually avoids the bustle of Stephens Green, going to make it my business to pop in soon.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 5:07pm

spurious wrote: »

Suggest those lauding the utter safety of cyclists and pedestrians mixing watch the crossing (lights AND 'lollipop') by the school on the North Strand any school morning. Watch some cyclists ignore lights and lollipops and hurtle through the crossing children.They had to bring in the lollipop folk, two of them and still some loonies who think they are in the Tour de France tear through the crossing, scattering children.

There are some utter lunatics on bicycles out there, cycling like maniacs and donning the all in black costumes with no lights at night (and yes, many loons in cars too) but absolutely sick to death of this 'cyclists can do no wrong' narrative.

Have a look at the below, in the North Strand. I wouldn't worry about cyclists if I were you, focus on idiots like the motorists in the video.

https://twitter.com/dubinthecity/status/1323983266450464768

imme · 17-11-2020 5:09pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I pass through it every day, again, they harm no one, regardless of how irritating people find them. They are not a danger, there's only one thing killing and maiming people on the roads.
People in black with no lights will only harm themselves too, so you don't need to worry about them.

These idiots are everywhere.

It amazes me that the Gardai at pop up checkpoints don't take them off the road.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 5:11pm

imme wrote: »

These idiots are everywhere.

It amazes me that the Gardai at pop up checkpoints don't take them off the road.

They do stop people with no lights, I saw it last week on Amiens st

imme · 17-11-2020 5:14pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They do stop people with no lights, I saw it last week on Amiens st

That's good news.
I think these are a danger to themselves and others.

I hadn't experienced this up to now.

loyatemu · 17-11-2020 5:25pm

seriously, does every thread have to end up with people whinging about cyclists?

no town square in Dublin? f*!#ing cyclists!

imme · 17-11-2020 5:34pm

loyatemu wrote: »

seriously, does every thread have to end up with people whinging about cyclists?

no town square in Dublin? f*!#ing cyclists!

I think with most threads on here the original topic gets exhausted pretty quickly.

Dyr · 17-11-2020 5:35pm

loyatemu wrote: »

seriously, does every thread have to end up with people whinging about cyclists?

no town square in Dublin? f*!#ing cyclists!

Now you know how junkies feel

GT89 · 17-11-2020 5:36pm

Is this not the idea of the College Green Plaza

crazy 88 · 17-11-2020 6:23pm

It would be a magnet for junkies and the council and planners know that. The few small squares that are in the city centre like smithfield and wolftone square are full of them, including the boardwalks. I know most are harmless but they are loud and the public drinking and shooting up would scare off most normal people.

That's what college green would turn into if it's pedestrianised. There'd also be a spillover of temple bar drunkenness.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 6:38pm

crazy 88 wrote: »

It would be a magnet for junkies and the council and planners know that. The few small squares that are in the city centre like smithfield and wolftone square are full of them, including the boardwalks. I know most are harmless but they are loud and the public drinking and shooting up would scare off most normal people.

That's what college green would turn into if it's pedestrianised. There'd also be a spillover of temple bar drunkenness.

Ridiculous. So we should have traffic running through everywhere because junkies. I despair.

GT89 · 17-11-2020 6:41pm

crazy 88 wrote: »

It would be a magnet for junkies and the council and planners know that. The few small squares that are in the city centre like smithfield and wolftone square are full of them, including the boardwalks. I know most are harmless but they are loud and the public drinking and shooting up would scare off most normal people.

That's what college green would turn into if it's pedestrianised. There'd also be a spillover of temple bar drunkenness.

Nearly all cities in Europe have drug addicts and undesirables in the city it's very common especially in areas surrounding large transport hubs.

Biker79 · 17-11-2020 6:51pm

GT89 wrote: »

Nearly all cities in Europe have drug addicts and undesirables in the city it's very common especially in areas surrounding large transport hubs.

Takes a pandemic to see the scale of the problem.

crazy 88 · 17-11-2020 7:04pm

GT89 wrote: »

Nearly all cities in Europe have drug addicts and undesirables in the city it's very common especially in areas surrounding large transport hubs.

They do not. Any of the large city squares I have been to in European cities have very few or none of them. Even Times Square was OK. I don't know why this is. I'm guessing it might be because homeless accommodation and treatment centres are not in the city centres.

crazy 88 · 17-11-2020 7:05pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Ridiculous. So we should have traffic running through everywhere because junkies. I despair.

And your solution for having town squares with a safe atmosphere is?

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 7:11pm

crazy 88 wrote: »

And your solution for having town squares with a safe atmosphere is?

Dublin city centre is safe everywhere. Addicts and homeless people don't really bother anyone. Junkie isn't a nice word either.

crazy 88 · 17-11-2020 7:23pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Dublin city centre is safe everywhere. Addicts and homeless people don't really bother anyone. Junkie isn't a nice word either.

I already said most don't harm or physically bother anyone. Do I want to see them shooting up and drinking cans in public? No. And neither would anyone else walking around a square or sitting in a café.

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 7:40pm

crazy 88 wrote: »

I already said most don't harm or physically bother anyone. Do I want to see them shooting up and drinking cans in public? No. And neither would anyone else walking around a square or sitting in a café.

But are you not seeing this anyway? We can't not develop the city because of some people you may find undesirable.

strandroad · 17-11-2020 7:48pm

crazy 88 wrote: »

They do not. Any of the large city squares I have been to in European cities have very few or none of them. Even Times Square was OK. I don't know why this is. I'm guessing it might be because homeless accommodation and treatment centres are not in the city centres.

Continental cities tend to have some form of public city guard: non-police public order force to react to antisocial behaviour or littering, enforce parking laws etc.
We only have the gardai who don't bother and TBH it would make perfect sense to only involve them in potential crimes not public order offences. A city guard only needs a leaving cert.
If you deployed 20 city guards between the canals it would clean the city up in no time. Other cities have their share of addicts but they learned to be civil enough and that a roaring fight or taking a dump in public would cost them.

crazy 88 · 17-11-2020 7:48pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

But are you not seeing this anyway? We can't not develop the city because of some people you may find undesirable.

Yes I am seeing it. And that's why I and most other people don't go near the boardwalks because of some of the things that go on there. Which is a shame as they look lovely.
I would love to see further developments but what's the point of another boardwalk on a bigger scale?

strandroad · 17-11-2020 7:53pm

crazy 88 wrote: »

Yes I am seeing it. And that's why I and most other people don't go near the boardwalks because of some of the things that go on there. Which is a shame as they look lovely.
I would love to see further developments but what's the point of another boardwalk on a bigger scale?

Having more public spaces would decompress them though. They wouldn't congregate as much if there were dozens of options instead of the two or three they flock to instead.

crazy 88 · 17-11-2020 7:54pm

strandroad wrote: »

Continental cities tend to have some form of public city guard: non-police public order force to react to antisocial behaviour or littering, enforce parking laws etc.
We only have the gardai who don't bother and TBH it would make perfect sense to only involve them in potential crimes not public order offences. A city guard only needs a leaving cert.
If you deployed 20 city guards between the canals it would clean the city up in no time. Other cities have their share of addicts but they learned to be civil enough and that a roaring fight or taking a dump in public would cost them.

That's true, they are well policed. Although one thing that seems to be common in some of these cities is pick pocketing. Strange that it's not a huge issue in Dublin

GarIT · 17-11-2020 7:55pm

I've been on squares, plazas or whatever you want to call them all around Europe, and all of them have had permanent police with guns standing in place watching the square.

GT89 · 17-11-2020 9:21pm

GarIT wrote: »

I've been on squares, plazas or whatever you want to call them all around Europe, and all of them have had permanent police with guns standing in place watching the square.

More to do with a certain religion of peace than drug addicts

Thelonious Monk · 17-11-2020 9:40pm

GT89 wrote: »

More to do with a certain religion of peace than drug addicts

No, i remember being in squares in madrid and Barcelona in 2002 and they had cops standing around while people just sat on the ground drinking cans of beer as they do in Spain

GarIT · 17-11-2020 10:11pm

GT89 wrote: »

More to do with a certain religion of peace than drug addicts

In my case potentially. I believe there was a terrorist attack somewhere else on my first or second day of a few days in Klön and that was mad, I think that might have been the only time I've had a gun pointed at me. The soilders were just pointing guns in the faces of people entering the train station.

Separate to that my point was I think if we had permanent police in key locations and a functional prison system maybe a plaza could work and would be safer.

Spanish Eyes · 17-11-2020 10:16pm

Will be difficult to get the G Siochana out of their warm barracks and leave their doughnuts on the table to keep us safe. Think about that.

I really thought that the Nordie Boss would shake things up, but the Superintendents have the power and always did. They are the managers of their Districts after all.

Strumms · 18-11-2020 12:58am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Have a look at the below, in the North Strand. I wouldn't worry about cyclists if I were you, focus on idiots like the motorists in the video.

It’s pretty horrific, mad driving, but i think we need to focus equally on shîtty dangerous driving as much as we do cycling.. both need to be called out.

Eleven Benevolent Elephants · 18-11-2020 1:26am

tdf7187 wrote: »

So what are you actually advocating? Flatten Dublin city centre and make a Trafalgar Square on the ruins? FFS man be realistic.

I suggested nothing of the kind.
What kind of mental gymnastics did you perform to arrive at that conclusion?

Pedestrianise O'Connell Street, Dame Street, College Green, Stephen's Green

Strumms · 18-11-2020 3:38am

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

I suggested nothing of the kind.
What kind of mental gymnastics did you perform to arrive at that conclusion?

Pedestrianise O'Connell Street, Dame Street, College Green, Stephen's Green

Never going to be possible.

So many businesses around there that rely on deliveries from couriers, stock vans / trucks etc, literally tonnes of things delivered daily ... where do all the buses, taxis etc go ? That will just cause absolute chaos and major congestion in other areas of the city... How do people with disabilities say get from o Connell st upper to st Stephens green ? Practically every courier as it is, needs to park illegally just to make deliveries to o Connell st. and neighboring streets and lanes.

With the metro ok, great, that will help. But clogging up the quays which are already at a standstill much of the day with even more traffic, not good... o ‘Connell st would be great pedestrianized but the lack of alternatives for traffic, especially public transport would not work. You need alternatives... pedestrianizing the streets you mentioned would be good FOR those streets but move the problems, bigger ones elsewhere.

The Champs Elysses isn’t pedestrianized, also Gran Via - Madrid, Las Ramblas - Barcelona, Oxford St - London.... none are either

Pedestrianizing roughly 2.5kms squared of the city, the busiest most centralized part won’t work, you’ll create worse problems elsewhere.

sheesh · 18-11-2020 3:59am

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

All the European cities I've been in have beautiful open squares, these are ample locations for markets, gatherings and other events.

St stephens green was a square at one stage but there were people formenting revolution so they had to change it a park.

So I have heard somewhere

JustAThought · 18-11-2020 4:11am

sheesh wrote: »

St stephens green was a square at one stage but there were people formenting revolution so they had to change it a park.

So I have heard somewhere

No. St Stephens Green was land privately owned by the Guinness family which was designed, created and given to the city as an open space to be enjoyed in the city centre. They also built a house for 24/7 on site park wardens in it for it to be policed for antsicial behaviour and public conveniences at a penny a pee.

They showed far more consideration and cop on than most of the lazy bureucrats sitting drawing salaries in their bunker of an office hammered on top of and destroying our city roots and our unique viking artifacts.

As for the junkies, drug dealers, heroin users, thieves and general knackers who have taken over our city this wouod bot be allowed in any other european city. They would be rounded up at gunpoint by gaurds who are actually visible l, proactive, on duty in public spaces and working and they would be prosecuted.

Our city has become a slum for dysfunctional junkies, drunks and knackers and it is only getting worse. People shooting up, pissing and vomiting where they stand, dossing about drunk on streets or settled in drinking dutch gold or aldi finest, stumbling around half drunk with their trousers half on half off, having sex on the streets, fighting, dealing drugs and stealing for them and endlessly endlessly begging, shoplifting and intimidating and harassing people for money.

As for the ‘markets’ that pop up at e700 a pitch for the councils - how about we take a stance and stop the endless commercialisation of public gardens and green spaces and allow families to relax without having to run the gauntlet of endless fried food, burger and coffee booths and endless illicit cash in hand ‘businesses’ with god knows what hygine and standards while local businesses who are inspected by HSE and pay rates and taxes all year round have to watch them blow in at weekends or peak times and suck up their passing trade or any bonus busy period business.

The whole thing has just become dysfunctional.

Kaybaykwah · 18-11-2020 4:42am

Strumms wrote: »

Never going to be possible.

So many businesses around there that rely on deliveries from couriers, stock vans / trucks etc, literally tonnes of things delivered daily ... where do all the buses, taxis etc go ? That will just cause absolute chaos and major congestion in other areas of the city... How do people with disabilities say get from o Connell st upper to st Stephens green ? Practically every courier as it is, needs to park illegally just to make deliveries to o Connell st. and neighboring streets and lanes.

With the metro ok, great, that will help. But clogging up the quays which are already at a standstill much of the day with even more traffic, not good... o ‘Connell st would be great pedestrianized but the lack of alternatives for traffic, especially public transport would not work. You need alternatives... pedestrianizing the streets you mentioned would be good FOR those streets but move the problems, bigger ones elsewhere.

The Champs Elysses isn’t pedestrianized, also Gran Via - Madrid, Las Ramblas - Barcelona, Oxford St - London.... none are either

Pedestrianizing roughly 2.5kms squared of the city, the busiest most centralized part won’t work, you’ll create worse problems elsewhere.

There is no need to pedestrianize the Champs Élysées. The sidewalks on either side of the boulevard are the width of a wide city street.

Why no town square in Dublin?

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