Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

Sam Russell · 06-03-2021 7:11pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

You're still not taking it in - the heritage idea is a nonsense. The RPSI are far, far away in Co.Antrim and would have zero interest in such a scheme and do not have loads of serviceable steam locos available.

The stations, apart from Wellingtonbridge, have been no more than bare platforms for years. The signalling system is intact. A lot of sleepers would need replacing but the line as been used by inspection cars and the weedkilling train in recent times.

What is happening at Moyaster Junction? Could something like that be done? I saw the steam loco steamed up a while back.

Sounds like the track is not in good condition, and would need quite a bit of work for regular train service, so likely will make reopening out of the question. I would concentrate on Wexford to Gorey. Get those passengers back on the trains once Covid allows it.

Del.Monte · 06-03-2021 8:01pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is happening at Moyaster Junction? Could something like that be done? I saw the steam loco steamed up a while back.

Sounds like the track is not in good condition, and would need quite a bit of work for regular train service, so likely will make reopening out of the question. I would concentrate on Wexford to Gorey. Get those passengers back on the trains once Covid allows it.

Tumbleweed.............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YksQuJmHAVk

Sam Russell · 06-03-2021 10:43pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Tumbleweed.............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YksQuJmHAVk

That is not encouraging. They obviously need lots of cash and lots of volunteers.

I think heritage has not caught on there.

Del.Monte · 07-03-2021 9:09am

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is not encouraging. They obviously need lots of cash and lots of volunteers.

I think heritage has not caught on there.

It is a private operation owned by a scion of the Whelan Quarries family - donate away. :cool:

Sam Russell · 07-03-2021 11:45am

Del.Monte wrote: »

It is a private operation owned by a scion of the Whelan Quarries family - donate away. :cool:

I was down there a few years ago shortly after they got the steam engine fired up, but now it looks like a dreadful scrap yard of rusty rubbish long abandoned.

It needs millions to sort that out and make it into a tourist attraction. They were talking about reinstating the line to Killkee but that will not happen now.

Isambard · 07-03-2021 3:01pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I was thinking they could form a partnership with the rpsi who have multiple steam and diesel locomotives as well as rolling stock (some of which they can't even use currently) the issues for me that would present the most problem is cash and volunteers. National lottery grants and tourism ireland would be a good Start but presumably the project will need at least one wealthy backer to get off the ground.

RPSI could have opened their own line anywhere in the past few decades but have decided not to, preferring to open a Museum which will absorb most of their "surplus" stock.

The British model of Society would be for a few like minded enthusiasts to start from grass roots and build up slowly, it took most of them very many years before they could get access to public funds. If it all looks Rosy over there, think again and see the example of the Llangollen line, a wonderful line in a tourist area, which has had to call in the receivers due to poor management.

end of the road · 08-03-2021 2:46am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Honest question for you: how do you square the notion that the people who operate the rail network, the people who actively campaign for sustainable transport, etc, all think that reinstating this line at a cost of 100million for 500 passengers per day would be a poor allocation of funds?
Do you think they all just don't understand, or do you think that they have some kind of anti-Waterford agenda, or what do you think the rationale might be?

the people who operate the network generally don't campaign for anything nor want to reopen or even operate a lot of services, dispite their lip service.
for example, the very successfull dublin to maynooth suburban service exists because apparently a minister essentially forced them to put it on.
if he hadn't, chances are that such a service wouldn't exist as the whole lot to sligo would have closed in the early 90s as nearly happened passed maynooth, or if it did happen, we would be talking about it probably being introduced in the mid to late 2000s assuming the line hadn't been lifted.
to be honest a cynic would say that if IE thinks it's a bad idea, it's probably actually a good one.

end of the road · 08-03-2021 3:04am

IngazZagni wrote: »

The name of the group shows they have an agenda. It's a classic case of the conclusion being written first and the rest is a document to try and fit the conclusion. It is not an independent report.

Honestly I think the idea of reopening this line is farcical. A service that has never had any significant passenger numbers in its history. I would certainly object to any funds going to this project when there are so many other more pressing items on the agenda.

the fact they have an agenda is ultimately irrelevant, any campaign group throughout history campaigning for anything has an agenda and if you are expecting otherwise then you will be left expecting.
the fact their report/business case isn't independant is also irrelevant, they have to provide a case as part of their campaign and they did.
the fact you might object to money being spent on it's reopening should it happen is neither here nor there as we won't get a say in the matter, it will be government/NTA who will make that decision whatever it is, whenever they make it, if they even do so

end of the road · 08-03-2021 3:21am

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I see no benefit to this to be honest.
It'll be another Ballybrophy line. Expensive subvention at the expense of the tax payer.
Is there significant demand for daily commuters between the 2?
I'm all for investment in infrastructure but it can't be just at enormous loss.
A greenaway is another good addition to tourism in the region.

almost every line has an expensive subvention, but it's ultimately cheaper then the other costs of not having it in existence i would expect, otherwise we just wouldn't bother having it.
realistically the ballybroaphy line costs what it does because it still has manual signalling and i believe there are some staffed crossing gates, remove those and actually insure speeds are improved and implement an actual half decent timetable and you will get that subsidy down substantially.
there was a chance to do all of that when the modernisation of the network was taking place and irish rail would have gotten the funding for this and the limerick to rosslare line had they asked for it.
as someone who knows the south wexford area quite well, there is absolutely no potential for a greenway on the line, there is no tourism potential especially.
for any cycling potential doing up the norman way would be the best option for tourism, maybe the new ross greenway might get a bit of usage but i wouldn't bank on it.
the norman way certainly would be the best greenway the county would be able to offer, and if you could get some way to extend to the real tourist hot spots like hookhead and so on then certainly that would be worth looking at.
but a south wexford greenway, forget it as there is nothing to offer.

Deleted User wrote: »

The WRC has a speed closer to 50kph. Its a 2 hr train ride that takes 1hr 20mins to drive

You REALLY don't want to be referring to the WRC if you are trying to make a case to justify reopening a line. The abysmal performance of that line (pick any metric) has done more to damage the case for rail than anything else we're likely to see in our lifetimes

it's not that it has damaged the case for rail investment, but it's used as an excuse against rail investment by those who don't really actually want to invest in it but are being more or less forced to do so.
if it wasn't that line, which to be fair is a reasonable success covid asside, it would be something else.

Sam Russell wrote: »

To get from Rosslare Europort to Wexford is timetabled at 23 mins. and according to Google, a car will take 23 mins. Now there are three trains in each direction currently, 7:20 am, 12:55 and 17:55, none of which is designed to meet any ferries. I would imagine that the ferries are the only source of passengers for the train at Rosslare Europort, and yet the train ignores them.

Now a bus service could provide a better service than this at very low cost, since the road is there and maintained anyway, could be timed to meet any ferries, and any number of coaches could be provided to meet any actual demand.

So what possible advantage has the train over the coach?

I would imagine that outside intercity rail journeys, rural rail is not meeting much of a need, particularly where there exists motorways, like Tuam to Athenry, or Athenry to Limerick.

Are there any surveys of possible passenger demand from Waterford to Wexford? Are they more than - 'Yes, I would use the train when my car breaks down!'

There are no numbers that are believable for passenger traffic on this line, and improvements on the N25 render them unlikely to be based on reality, but more on wishful thinking and dreaming.

people from the village of rosslare and the strand use the service, it's actually reasonably used.
i drive the rosslare road quite a bit and funnily enough i'm often beaten by the train.
replacing the service with a bus service would do nothing really, after all if people wanted bus services they would have had more of them and yet those using public transport to dublin take the train as it is more convenient and quicker when it runs.
or if not then they drive to wexford for the bus if they do take that to dublin.
realistically the bit of track to rosslare is really a long siding so removing it would save little.
to mention on a separate note, the line to dublin has 4 up and 5 down services in normal time and not 3, that has been the case since 2004.
the current timetable will be less due to covid of course.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You can continue to hold that belief. We all have our beliefs. But then there's cold hard cash to be stumped up. I think that's when the belief has to be backed up by fact, demand, and planning. I don't believe there is anything like the demand - there wasn't even the demand to run a bus from Enniscorthy to Waterford through Clonroche?

Its worth noting that the subvention in the Ballybrophy-Limerick train line is €550 per PASSENGER. Don't forget that the Capex costs to build the line are 1 thing - the Opex costs are the real killer as they are the on-going costs year in year out. Money which can absolutely find a better home in our country than some romantic notion of a demand which just isn't there.

You can always tell demand based on services like Wexford Bus - they only put on buses where there's business justification, because it hits their bottom line. If they can't even justify more than a handful of buses a day, how are you justifying a outrageously expensive train line?

Neither of these are true. Many of us know the area, or live in the real world.

actually to be fair, you can't tell demand for rail services based on bus services, as while there may be some overlap in terms of users, both generally are different markets with different users.
so wexford bus running few services shows there is little demand for bus services, but doesn't necessarily show there is little demand for a properly run rail service.

end of the road · 08-03-2021 4:06am

Oscar Madison wrote: »

Aren't there enough buses covering New Ross, Wexford & Rosslare?

The population isn't there to justify such an investment!

I'm all for rail investment, it has been sadly neglected over the years

but it needs to be carefully thought out before investing in it.

the population is very much there but it's not just about wexford and waterford.
as well as that both are going to grow as time goes on.
what was really needed was modernisation when the money was there and it would have been given, the line would have cost a hell of a lot less to operate.
it's a necessary project but certainly i wouldn't be expecting it before big projects like metrolink, navan etc.
continue campaigning and hope for a reopening when the place is crippled which will happen.

nilhg · 08-03-2021 10:37am

end of the road wrote: »

as someone who knows the south wexford area quite well, there is absolutely no potential for a greenway on the line, there is no tourism potential especially.
for any cycling potential doing up the norman way would be the best option for tourism, maybe the new ross greenway might get a bit of usage but i wouldn't bank on it.
the norman way certainly would be the best greenway the county would be able to offer, and if you could get some way to extend to the real tourist hot spots like hookhead and so on then certainly that would be worth looking at.
but a south wexford greenway, forget it as there is nothing to offer.

snipped for brevity

This is the thing I find most people don't seem to understand, in my limited enough experience 90% of the usage of greenways/blueways is by local people.

During the planning process for the Barrow Blueway I attended the questions always were where will the tourists stay? Have we facilities for all the foreigners? People used to look at me strangely when I said that mainly this investment is for you and your families, a certain amount of external tourism will come but that in my opinion it was depending on a network being established. But now that bits of thew blueway are being opened it's black every fine day with local people enjoying the facility, being out in the open air with their family and not having to worry about traffic.

Obviously my 90% estimate applies to non tourist areas, Connemara and Kerry when they open will have a different mix.

I reckon the people of South Wexford are as entitled to some nice facilities as anyone else

And of course if touring cyclists are going to come to this country by boat to Rosslare, a nice greenway to get them to Waterford would be very useful.

CatInABox · 08-03-2021 10:47am

nilhg wrote: »

This is the thing I find most people don't seem to understand, in my limited enough experience 90% of the usage of greenways/blueways is by local people.

During the planning process for the Barrow Blueway I attended the questions always were where will the tourists stay? Have we facilities for all the foreigners? People used to look at me strangely when I said that mainly this investment is for you and your families, a certain amount of external tourism will come but that in my opinion it was depending on a network being established. But now that bits of thew blueway are being opened it's black every fine day with local people enjoying the facility, being out in the open air with their family and not having to worry about traffic.

Obviously my 90% estimate applies to non tourist areas, Connemara and Kerry when they open will have a different mix.

I reckon the people of South Wexford are as entitled to some nice facilities as anyone else

It's incredibly frustrating. A good few years back, a new road opened outside Dunshaughlin, a bridge going over the M3, a really wide road, somewhat busy with fast cars, with huge hard shoulders. Every day, there's people walking on those hard shoulders, it's packed on a sunny day. In fact, it's a victim of it's own success, as now there's people driving to it and parking in the hard shoulder, just so they can get out and walk.

Talk to them about asking for a greenway though, and it's all "sure there's no tourists in Dunshaughlin at all".

Isambard · 08-03-2021 10:50am

nilhg wrote: »

This is the thing I find most people don't seem to understand, in my limited enough experience 90% of the usage of greenways/blueways is by local people.

During the planning process for the Barrow Blueway I attended the questions always were where will the tourists stay? Have we facilities for all the foreigners? People used to look at me strangely when I said that mainly this investment is for you and your families, a certain amount of external tourism will come but that in my opinion it was depending on a network being established. But now that bits of thew blueway are being opened it's black every fine day with local people enjoying the facility, being out in the open air with their family and not having to worry about traffic.

Obviously my 90% estimate applies to non tourist areas, Connemara and Kerry when they open will have a different mix.

I reckon the people of South Wexford are as entitled to some nice facilities as anyone else

And of course if touring cyclists are going to come to this country by boat to Rosslare, a nice greenway to get them to Waterford would be very useful.

I think you're right. Whereas the Tourist may be the icing on the cake, the real value is to local usage. An example would be the Canals in the Uk, last one I visited the towpath was plastered with dog walkers and strollers, with the pub and ice cream shop doing a roaring trade. No reason why an Irish facility shouldn't be sucessful at the same things, albeit on a smaller scale perhaps (which might be a good thing given the throng on that towpath!

end of the road · 08-03-2021 2:55pm

nilhg wrote: »

This is the thing I find most people don't seem to understand, in my limited enough experience 90% of the usage of greenways/blueways is by local people.

During the planning process for the Barrow Blueway I attended the questions always were where will the tourists stay? Have we facilities for all the foreigners? People used to look at me strangely when I said that mainly this investment is for you and your families, a certain amount of external tourism will come but that in my opinion it was depending on a network being established. But now that bits of thew blueway are being opened it's black every fine day with local people enjoying the facility, being out in the open air with their family and not having to worry about traffic.

Obviously my 90% estimate applies to non tourist areas, Connemara and Kerry when they open will have a different mix.

I reckon the people of South Wexford are as entitled to some nice facilities as anyone else

And of course if touring cyclists are going to come to this country by boat to Rosslare, a nice greenway to get them to Waterford would be very useful.

you aren't comparing like with like though.
the barrow blue way is really an inexpensive bit of infrastructure and costs little to actually look after, so a few locals on a fine day can be justified.
a greenway on the south wexford line however would be very expensive in terms of cost to construct and the maintenence it requires due to the structures, 1 or 2 locals out on a fine day just would not be worth the cost, and from what i hear there is not really much support or want for it anyway apart from some local politicians.
it seems to be mainly people who have nothing to do with the county and who don't know the local conditions who support it with the odd few in the county.
you would need hords of tourists to support it on an ongoing basis and i'm afraid there is never going to be anything of tourist value in the areas along the line.
the likes of the norman way which have potentially something to offer if it was done up would be the facility south wexford would deserve, not a hugely expensive to maintain greenway that might get a small bit of usage a couple of days a year and which will suck up quite a bit of our already high property tax all the while the local roads are falling to bits and the motor ways are beyond congested.
i'm sorry but as someone who is familiar with the area such a greenway has nothing going for it and never will do so.
the few cycling tourists who might come through rosslare can head for the new ross greenway, if they want a "nice greenway"

nilhg · 08-03-2021 3:11pm

end of the road wrote: »

you aren't comparing like with like though.
the barrow blue way is really an inexpensive bit of infrastructure and costs little to actually look after, so a few locals on a fine day can be justified.
a greenway on the south wexford line however would be very expensive in terms of cost to construct and the maintenence it requires due to the structures, 1 or 2 locals out on a fine day just would not be worth the cost, and from what i hear there is not really much support or want for it anyway apart from some local politicians.
it seems to be mainly people who have nothing to do with the county and who don't know the local conditions who support it with the odd few in the county.
you would need hords of tourists to support it on an ongoing basis and i'm afraid there is never going to be anything of tourist value in the areas along the line.
the likes of the norman way which have potentially something to offer if it was done up would be the facility south wexford would deserve, not a hugely expensive to maintain greenway that might get a small bit of usage a couple of days a year and which will suck up quite a bit of our already high property tax all the while the local roads are falling to bits and the motor ways are beyond congested.
i'm sorry but as someone who is familiar with the area such a greenway has nothing going for it and never will do so.
the few cycling tourists who might come through rosslare can head for the new ross greenway, if they want a "nice greenway"

Really you should come up and have a look, you might learn something.

A quick look at the Norman Way website suggests it's a collection of sites that you drive between? There's no marked way? Or even if there is you're sharing the space with normal road traffic. With the best will in the world that's not a great experience for a family with a couple of youngsters on their bikes

end of the road · 08-03-2021 3:18pm

nilhg wrote: »

Really you should come up and have a look, you might learn something.

A quick look at the Norman Way website suggests it's a collection of sites that you drive between? There's no marked way? Or even if there is you're sharing the space with normal road traffic. With the best will in the world that's not a great experience for a family with a couple of youngsters on their bikes

with respect i don't need to learn anything, i know the reality and the local conditions on the ground within the area we are discussing.
you will have read me mentioning doing up the norman way, as in mark it and where possible segregate it from the rest of the traffic, after that it will do nicely.
trust me, forget about a south wexford railway greenway, it really has nothing going for it as a greenway.

nilhg · 08-03-2021 3:28pm

end of the road wrote: »

with respect i don't need to learn anything, i know the reality and the local conditions on the ground within the area we are discussing.
you will have read me mentioning doing up the norman way, as in mark it and where possible segregate it from the rest of the traffic, after that it will do nicely.
trust me, forget about a south wexford railway greenway, it really has nothing going for it as a greenway.

Well the folk in Kildare (and Laois) are delighted that someone has the vision to spend €6.75 million on the Blueway , I've no idea what it might cost to make a greenway on the old disused railway but as you say it'll be up to the people of South Wexford to fight their own battle on that.

Just WRT the Norman way, painting a few lines on the side of a road doesn't make a jot of difference, it should be proper facilities or nothing.

end of the road · 08-03-2021 3:57pm

nilhg wrote: »

Well the folk in Kildare (and Laois) are delighted that someone has the vision to spend €6.75 million on the Blueway , I've no idea what it might cost to make a greenway on the old disused railway but as you say it'll be up to the people of South Wexford to fight their own battle on that.

Just WRT the Norman way, painting a few lines on the side of a road doesn't make a jot of difference, it should be proper facilities or nothing.

the barrow way actually has something to offer, so i think many of us are glad it is there.
i believe there was an attempt to turn it into a full greenway which was stopped thankfully as it would have ruined the experience.
certainly proper facilities on the norman way would be welcome and i reccan that would get good support, even from the most disinterested person in cycling.

jackofalltrades · 08-03-2021 5:31pm

end of the road wrote: »

with respect i don't need to learn anything, i know the reality and the local conditions on the ground within the area we are discussing.

Where do you live in South Wexford?

end of the road wrote: »

certainly proper facilities on the norman way would be welcome and i reccan that would get good support, even from the most disinterested person in cycling.

It's a route that's roughly 140KM long. Upgrading the roads so there's proper protected cycling facilites would cost an absolute fortune.

Working class heroes · 08-03-2021 5:33pm

end of the road wrote: »

you aren't comparing like with like though.
the barrow blue way is really an inexpensive bit of infrastructure and costs little to actually look after, so a few locals on a fine day can be justified.
a greenway on the south wexford line however would be very expensive in terms of cost to construct and the maintenence it requires due to the structures, 1 or 2 locals out on a fine day just would not be worth the cost, and from what i hear there is not really much support or want for it anyway apart from some local politicians.
it seems to be mainly people who have nothing to do with the county and who don't know the local conditions who support it with the odd few in the county.
you would need hords of tourists to support it on an ongoing basis and i'm afraid there is never going to be anything of tourist value in the areas along the line.
the likes of the norman way which have potentially something to offer if it was done up would be the facility south wexford would deserve, not a hugely expensive to maintain greenway that might get a small bit of usage a couple of days a year and which will suck up quite a bit of our already high property tax all the while the local roads are falling to bits and the motor ways are beyond congested.
i'm sorry but as someone who is familiar with the area such a greenway has nothing going for it and never will do so.
the few cycling tourists who might come through rosslare can head for the new ross greenway, if they want a "nice greenway"

Absolutely ridiculous post.

Working class heroes · 08-03-2021 5:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

with respect i don't need to learn anything, i know the reality and the local conditions on the ground within the area we are discussing.
you will have read me mentioning doing up the norman way, as in mark it and where possible segregate it from the rest of the traffic, after that it will do nicely.
trust me, forget about a south wexford railway greenway, it really has nothing going for it as a greenway.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

08-03-2021 6:56pm

Can I interest ye in a high speed bus service perhaps?

Just a bit of light hearted humour

end of the road · 08-03-2021 8:17pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Where do you live in South Wexford?

It's a route that's roughly 140KM long. Upgrading the roads so there's proper protected cycling facilites would cost an absolute fortune.

even if it did cost a fortune, which to be honest i don't believe it would, it would actually have a pay back and would be worth it, it would be a cycle way to be prowd of.
something like that which would actually provide interest and tourism is the greenway we deserve to have.

PhilOssophy · 10-03-2021 5:04pm

I finally got around to scan the business case above and it makes even less sense now.
Several points on it (and to be honest, I could pick holes all day):
1. The new developments in Wexford town should be used to attract people to live in the town, not to commute from Waterford to it.
2. I presumed the intention was that the train would be non-stop Wexford-Waterford. I can't believe there is a suggestion that it should stop in Campile, Wellingtonbridge etc. That alone will probably make it slower than the bus.
3. The figures for school going children are outrageous. Yes there might be that many children but many of them are probably being brought by parents travelling to-from work. I would also contend, that the major schools in Waterford are all more than 20 minutes walk from the train station. As are most of the employers in the city.
4. I would say that there are very very few international travellers who arrive in Ireland and rely on our train services. They either do a coach tour (e.g. Paddy Wagon tours) or hire a car. Yes you might find a few Dutch people who'll cycle around but very few.
5. I would love to know the numbers who have sat at home and said "If only there was a train I could get to The Phil Murphy Weekend in Carrick-on-Bannow"
6. I would rather see €100m spent on the likes of Trinity Wharf, the business park in Enniscorthy at St. Senan's and similar projects as well as improvements on the Rosslare-Dublin line.
7. There clearly isn't the demand or the supply (or maybe the track, I don't know) for a train from Gorey-Enniscorthy-Wexford as a commuter service, which would pass through 2 big towns. I just don't see the demand on this line either. And at €6 each way according to Irish Rail, I can see why.

I would love to be sitting here saying "Great idea, hurry up and do it" but it just isn't adding up. I can't help hearing "The West Clare Railway" song in my head here.

ohographite · 11-03-2021 5:34pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I finally got around to scan the business case above and it makes even less sense now.
Several points on it (and to be honest, I could pick holes all day):
1. The new developments in Wexford town should be used to attract people to live in the town, not to commute from Waterford to it.
2. I presumed the intention was that the train would be non-stop Wexford-Waterford. I can't believe there is a suggestion that it should stop in Campile, Wellingtonbridge etc. That alone will probably make it slower than the bus.
3. The figures for school going children are outrageous. Yes there might be that many children but many of them are probably being brought by parents travelling to-from work. I would also contend, that the major schools in Waterford are all more than 20 minutes walk from the train station. As are most of the employers in the city.
4. I would say that there are very very few international travellers who arrive in Ireland and rely on our train services. They either do a coach tour (e.g. Paddy Wagon tours) or hire a car. Yes you might find a few Dutch people who'll cycle around but very few.
5. I would love to know the numbers who have sat at home and said "If only there was a train I could get to The Phil Murphy Weekend in Carrick-on-Bannow"
6. I would rather see €100m spent on the likes of Trinity Wharf, the business park in Enniscorthy at St. Senan's and similar projects as well as improvements on the Rosslare-Dublin line.
7. There clearly isn't the demand or the supply (or maybe the track, I don't know) for a train from Gorey-Enniscorthy-Wexford as a commuter service, which would pass through 2 big towns. I just don't see the demand on this line either. And at €6 each way according to Irish Rail, I can see why.

I would love to be sitting here saying "Great idea, hurry up and do it" but it just isn't adding up. I can't help hearing "The West Clare Railway" song in my head here.

Not everyone who goes to work or school in Waterford or Wexford needs to be likely to use the train for reopening the Waterford-Rosslare railway to make sense. Not all the tourists visiting the region need to be likely to take the train either.

I am not in support of all the stations which were between Waterford and Rosslare reopening. I am not sure if most people in South East on Track agree with me, but if it was up to me, two of the intermediate stations would reopen, Bridgetown(because it has a higher population than any of the other villages) and Ballycullane(because it is close to both Wellingtonbridge and Campile, so they would be within the catchment area of Ballycullane station).
If new track was put on the line allowing an average speed of 100km/h between Waterford and Wexford, it would take about 40 minutes to travel the 65km between them, non-stop. I think stopping at 2 stations would delay a train by about 6 minutes(3 minutes for each station), and I think having to accelerate leaving Waterford and slow down while approaching Wexford would delay the train by 4 minutes(2 minutes for accelerating, 2 for slowing down).
That would mean the journey time would be 50 minutes, which is faster than the bus, and slightly slower than travelling by car.

riddlinrussell · 11-03-2021 5:42pm

ohographite wrote: »

Not everyone who goes to work or school in Waterford or Wexford needs to be likely to use the train for reopening the Waterford-Rosslare railway to make sense. Not all the tourists visiting the region need to be likely to take the train either.

I am not in support of all the stations which were between Waterford and Rosslare reopening. I am not sure if most people in South East on Track agree with me, but if it was up to me, two of the intermediate stations would reopen, Bridgetown(because it has a higher population than any of the other villages) and Ballycullane(because it is close to both Wellingtonbridge and Campile, so they would be within the catchment area of Ballycullane station).
If new track was put on the line allowing an average speed of 100km/h between Waterford and Wexford, it would take about 40 minutes to travel the 65km between them, non-stop. I think stopping at 2 stations would delay a train by about 6 minutes(3 minutes for each station), and I think having to accelerate leaving Waterford and slow down while approaching Wexford would delay the train by 4 minutes(2 minutes for accelerating, 2 for slowing down).
That would mean the journey time would be 50 minutes, which is faster than the bus, and slightly slower than travelling by car.

I think what it boils down to, is that regardless of it being 'on the agenda' or not, it is going to be absolute dead last in terms of rail prioritisation for an exceedingly long time. Simply far too many things need done to the network that offer better returns or opportunity cost.

Rail use getting to the point of renewed viability of reopening this line you'd be at the level of potentially bringing rail back to Donegal, A Dublin-Derry line via Enniskillen and Omagh etc.

PhilOssophy · 11-03-2021 5:49pm

ohographite wrote: »

Not everyone who goes to work or school in Waterford or Wexford needs to be likely to use the train for reopening the Waterford-Rosslare railway to make sense. Not all the tourists visiting the region need to be likely to take the train either.

I am not in support of all the stations which were between Waterford and Rosslare reopening. I am not sure if most people in South East on Track agree with me, but if it was up to me, two of the intermediate stations would reopen, Bridgetown(because it has a higher population than any of the other villages) and Ballycullane(because it is close to both Wellingtonbridge and Campile, so they would be within the catchment area of Ballycullane station).
If new track was put on the line allowing an average speed of 100km/h between Waterford and Wexford, it would take about 40 minutes to travel the 65km between them, non-stop. I think stopping at 2 stations would delay a train by about 6 minutes(3 minutes for each station), and I think having to accelerate leaving Waterford and slow down while approaching Wexford would delay the train by 4 minutes(2 minutes for accelerating, 2 for slowing down).
That would mean the journey time would be 50 minutes, which is faster than the bus, and slightly slower than travelling by car.

Aside from the journey time, lets be realistic here - there isn't the demand in any of those places for a train service.
I completely get the romantic notion of hopping on the train in Wellington Bridge and getting off in Waterford, but lets be real here - there just isn't the population size to justify it.
In fact, I'd probably wonder if there is the demand for even a couple of buses a day. Is there?

ohographite · 11-03-2021 6:07pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I think what it boils down to, is that regardless of it being 'on the agenda' or not, it is going to be absolute dead last in terms of rail prioritisation for an exceedingly long time. Simply far too many things need done to the network that offer better returns or opportunity cost.

Rail use getting to the point of renewed viability of reopening this line you'd be at the level of potentially bringing rail back to Donegal, A Dublin-Derry line via Enniskillen and Omagh etc.

If Waterford-Rosslare is reopened now, it will cost less than it would if it is done in 15 years time.
I know that since September, Irish Rail have downgraded the maintenance they are giving to the Waterford-Rosslare line. I am not sure how much it cost to maintain the line from the closure in 2010 until then, so I'm wondering, if the line maintenance was upgraded back to what it had from 2010 to 2020, and continued for the next 15 years, would it still be much more expensive to reopen, or would the maintenance make cost of reopening it stay the same as it is now, for those 15 years?

I'm sorry that I have asked you a very complicated question, and I probably haven't explained it well either.

ohographite · 11-03-2021 6:16pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Aside from the journey time, lets be realistic here - there isn't the demand in any of those places for a train service.
I completely get the romantic notion of hopping on the train in Wellington Bridge and getting off in Waterford, but lets be real here - there just isn't the population size to justify it.
In fact, I'd probably wonder if there is the demand for even a couple of buses a day. Is there?

I accept that a few villages with a combined population of 1000-2000 people are unlikely to generate enough travel demand for a railway to make sense(by make sense, I mean reduce greenhouse gas emissions).
However, the people who would use the railway to travel to these villages would not be the only people using the railway. It would also be people travelling from Waterford to towns on the east coast, people travelling from towns on the east coast to towns on the Dublin-Waterford and Limerick-Waterford lines etc.
I would say all of these journey possibilities combined would mean a significant amount of people would use the railway, even though there is no journey possibility which would by itself.

Del.Monte · 11-03-2021 6:36pm

@ nohographite

You're wasting your time as the anti-rail posters keep twisting the discussion to being about the local potential of the route in exactly the same way that they have trashed the reopening of the Athenry/Claremorris to being about commuting between Tuam and Galway.

Isambard · 11-03-2021 7:40pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Aside from the journey time, lets be realistic here - there isn't the demand in any of those places for a train service.
I completely get the romantic notion of hopping on the train in Wellington Bridge and getting off in Waterford, but lets be real here - there just isn't the population size to justify it.
In fact, I'd probably wonder if there is the demand for even a couple of buses a day. Is there?

well the one advantage the train had on this line was that the line was far more direct than the road... one side of a triangle rather than two. However now the new New Ross bridge is open, that advantage has been eroded a good bit.

bk · 11-03-2021 8:03pm

ohographite wrote: »

I accept that a few villages with a combined population of 1000-2000 people are unlikely to generate enough travel demand for a railway to make sense(by make sense, I mean reduce greenhouse gas emissions).

The environmental argument is very weak with this.

An old Diesel train is certainly not particularly green. I know the argument is that on a per passenger basis it is less polluting. And that would certainly be true on a packed commuter train heading into Dublin/Cork in the morning peak.

But when you start talking about rural lines with very low demand and these old Diesel engines running up and down the tracks mostly carrying air, they stop looking green.

A modern Euro 6 engined coach, that better fits the demand there would be a lot greener then trains like this.

If you are really serious about the environment, then you could look to Hydrogen or EV powered coaches, which would be zero emission. Say 2 million, a fraction of what you want to spend on this would buy you a nice fleet of 4 or 5 EV or Hydrogen coaches to run on the route.

riddlinrussell · 11-03-2021 9:01pm

ohographite wrote: »

If Waterford-Rosslare is reopened now, it will cost less than it would if it is done in 15 years time.
I know that since September, Irish Rail have downgraded the maintenance they are giving to the Waterford-Rosslare line. I am not sure how much it cost to maintain the line from the closure in 2010 until then, so I'm wondering, if the line maintenance was upgraded back to what it had from 2010 to 2020, and continued for the next 15 years, would it still be much more expensive to reopen, or would the maintenance make cost of reopening it stay the same as it is now, for those 15 years?

I'm sorry that I have asked you a very complicated question, and I probably haven't explained it well either.

No the question makes sense, I think you need to think like the government to see how the financials will be considered. Your point about it costing less now to reopen than in 15 years is entirely correct, but predicated on the concept that they would want to reopen it in 15 years (or ever).

Let's assume however that they did want to look at the costs of opening it in 15 years/now, the line isn't going to be profit making for a long time, if ever, so the main price consideration would be: opening cost + 15 year operating cost vs estimated opening cost in 15 years.

Not to pick at a sore spot, but assume scenario is a ballybrophy situation, 15x operating costs for that line plus 100 million to reopen in a decent state now against maybe 300 million to open in 15 years (ignoring inflation etc)

I'm sure someone could provide more accurate data than that, but when it comes down to it, the cost consideration is going to be: cost of reopening + operation for 15 years, vs cost of turning into a greenway and maintaining for 15 years. Even in 15 years I just cant see this line running unless theres been such a massive shift in travel patterns that it's not possible to anticipate.

PhilOssophy · 11-03-2021 9:47pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

@ nohographite

You're wasting your time as the anti-rail posters keep twisting the discussion to being about the local potential of the route in exactly the same way that they have trashed the reopening of the Athenry/Claremorris to being about commuting between Tuam and Galway.

That's a ridiculous post. If you don't have a decent commuter base to justify a line, it makes even less sense. Because for every commuter who makes 10+ journeys a week and pays their weekly/monthly/annual ticket (and thus bankrolls the line), there will be 1 journey made by somebody else (probably on a free travel pass).

If you can't even justify the argument based on financials of commuting, there is no point going any further. Because you could probably drive the people in a people carrier and save money, environment and 100m in tax payer money which could be spent far better.

In addition, the journey time which needs to be considered is door-to-door - so if you have to drive into Wellingtonbridge, get this train, get to Waterford, walk 15-20 minutes to your workplace (the train station in Waterford is not that well located to many businesses) then the total journey time becomes ridiculous, and if people can drive quicker there is absolutely no way it makes sense.

I would also fully believe that the spin-offs from a decent greenway might be far better for these villages - if people need to stop for food, coffee, etc in these small towns it would give these towns a lift. It'd give them more of a lift than an empty train passing through them every day. If the greenway could be extended to link up with the Waterford Greenway, then you are really on to something.

I fully support the green agenda and support rail in the right locations (e.g. where proper planning for residential density existed to justify it), but it can't make no economic sense.

Anyway I've probably contributed all I can to the thread so I'll bow out now.

11-03-2021 10:29pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

@ nohographite

You're wasting your time as the anti-rail posters keep twisting the discussion to being about the local potential of the route in exactly the same way that they have trashed the reopening of the Athenry/Claremorris to being about commuting between Tuam and Galway.

Athenry/Claremorris, lol, no such route has been reviewed for reopening by any govt since the line closed in 1976. If you wish to discuss further I'll see you over on the appropriate thread.

Smart investment in higher benefit projects does not equal anti-rail. That this needs to be explained over and over and over indicates that there's far too much emotion being attached to these old lines and little logic. 100 million spent on upgrading existing intercity lines will be far more beneficial by literally every measurable metric than this silliness

As for the line in question here, lets bring some numbers into this

Bridgetown, 400+ population
Campile, 400+ population
Wellington Bridge, 500+ population

Do does populations justify the spend? No

I think this has been summed up appropriately with the following response

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I think what it boils down to, is that regardless of it being 'on the agenda' or not, it is going to be absolute dead last in terms of rail prioritisation for an exceedingly long time. Simply far too many things need done to the network that offer better returns or opportunity cost.

Rail use getting to the point of renewed viability of reopening this line you'd be at the level of potentially bringing rail back to Donegal, A Dublin-Derry line via Enniskillen and Omagh etc.

You can make whatever emotive arguments you wish, use whatever numbers you want to try make your case, but they will fail a standard CBA every.single.time.

Del.Monte · 12-03-2021 12:01am

The Athenry/Claremorris line did not close in 1976 and this would seem to contradict your other assertion about no government considering the section for reopening: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1174d-review-of-western-rail-corridor-phases-2-and-3-athenry-to-claremorris/

As for returning to the populations of Bridgetown etc. this is you attempting again to obfuscate the issue. The Ennis/Athenry section was not reopened to cater for the populations of Ardrahan and Craughwell but to facilitate travel between Limerick, Ennis and Galway. In the same vein, the reopening of Rosslare Strand/Waterford would facilitate a whole range of travel options as well as carrying some shoppers/school kids etc. locally.

I don't really see where you're coming from apart from seeming to enjoying an argument. I want to see the railway reopened because I used to use it and found it convenient even with the diabolical service that pertained. I want to see it developed to its full potential. You seem to be against this line, and others, to no purpose except to save money - in the event of which the government won't be sending any of it back to you personally.

jackofalltrades · 12-03-2021 12:23am

ohographite wrote: »

I am not in support of all the stations which were between Waterford and Rosslare reopening.

So not only do you want to rob the people of South Wexford of a great local amenity that could be of tremendous use to them.
Now you want to tell some of them that the train line to be reinstated instead isn't even going to serve them anymore

end of the road · 12-03-2021 12:54am

Isambard wrote: »

well the one advantage the train had on this line was that the line was far more direct than the road... one side of a triangle rather than two. However now the new New Ross bridge is open, that advantage has been eroded a good bit.

it was eroded a bit at the start, but not now.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I would also fully believe that the spin-offs from a decent greenway might be far better for these villages - if people need to stop for food, coffee, etc in these small towns it would give these towns a lift. It'd give them more of a lift than an empty train passing through them every day. If the greenway could be extended to link up with the Waterford Greenway, then you are really on to something.

i'm sorry but there will be nobody stopping in places like wellingtonbridge, bridgetown or campile for food and coffee, it's just not going to happen, it's not going to be a waterford repeat and there will be no uplift or nothing.
there would have to be deviations at either end anyway, which while not so much of an issue, when we look at it and all the maintenence and costs that would be required, it just seems pointless for what would be in reality, an insult and subpar product.
there are other routes around the county which would be able to link up what the county actually does have to offer, which is a hell of a lot in reality, and it is that what the county deserves, and not this subpar one.

PhilOssophy · 12-03-2021 10:00am

Del.Monte wrote: »

As for returning to the populations of Bridgetown etc. this is you attempting again to obfuscate the issue. The Ennis/Athenry section was not reopened to cater for the populations of Ardrahan and Craughwell but to facilitate travel between Limerick, Ennis and Galway. In the same vein, the reopening of Rosslare Strand/Waterford would facilitate a whole range of travel options as well as carrying some shoppers/school kids etc. locally.

I don't really see where you're coming from apart from seeming to enjoying an argument. I want to see the railway reopened because I used to use it and found it convenient even with the diabolical service that pertained. I want to see it developed to its full potential. You seem to be against this line, and others, to no purpose except to save money - in the event of which the government won't be sending any of it back to you personally.

Would the people of Rosslare who want to use the train not get the current service into Wexford for the purpose of shopping?

Its not about saving money - its about saving money waste, while the government might not send any money back to any of us personally they might use the money instead to invest in services and facilities which are needed, not some ghost train to carry a car load of people at enormous cost.

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sorry but there will be nobody stopping in places like wellingtonbridge, bridgetown or campile for food and coffee, it's just not going to happen, it's not going to be a waterford repeat and there will be no uplift or nothing.
there would have to be deviations at either end anyway, which while not so much of an issue, when we look at it and all the maintenence and costs that would be required, it just seems pointless for what would be in reality, an insult and subpar product.

Do people who do cycling holidays not stop in local towns/villages for coffee or lunch? I have done greenway holidays before and can absolutely guarantee you that you are wrong. Even with deviations at the end, with some proper planning it could be liked up to tourist traps like Hook Head, Duncannon, etc. It'd be 100m better spent on greenways, facilities and cycle tracks than on an empty train to cost a fortune every day, that is for sure.

Sam Russell · 12-03-2021 10:03am

Mod: Can we stop referring to posters as anti-this or anti-that.

If posters are against some aspect, then that is OK and accept it. They are entitled to hold such views, and generalising their views to be anti- just because you are pro- is unfair.

Do not attack the poster.

end of the road · 12-03-2021 4:10pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Would the people of Rosslare who want to use the train not get the current service into Wexford for the purpose of shopping?

Its not about saving money - its about saving money waste, while the government might not send any money back to any of us personally they might use the money instead to invest in services and facilities which are needed, not some ghost train to carry a car load of people at enormous cost.

they wouldn't be investing it in a ghost train that would carry a car load in this case, as the well put together business case by south east on track shows.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Do people who do cycling holidays not stop in local towns/villages for coffee or lunch? I have done greenway holidays before and can absolutely guarantee you that you are wrong. Even with deviations at the end, with some proper planning it could be liked up to tourist traps like Hook Head, Duncannon, etc. It'd be 100m better spent on greenways, facilities and cycle tracks than on an empty train to cost a fortune every day, that is for sure.

there would b no empty train to cost a fortune, so you may as well dispence with that idea as the very well put together business case by southeast on track shows that there would be no ghost train.
i'm telling you as someone who actually knows the areas being discussed that this particular greenway has nothing going for it, that's it, linking it up to any other greenways will not change that.
anyone stopping for food will be looking for somewhere worth while stopping, and that is on the greenways linking the actual sites of interest.
if you want actual greenways in the county then get behind those instead of supporting an expensive but subpar one, because the county deserves much better then this nothing to offer greenway.

Working class heroes · 12-03-2021 4:38pm

end of the road wrote: »

they wouldn't be investing it in a ghost train that would carry a car load in this case, as the well put together business case by south east on track shows.

there would b no empty train to cost a fortune, so you may as well dispence with that idea as the very well put together business case by southeast on track shows that there would be no ghost train.
i'm telling you as someone who actually knows the areas being discussed that this particular greenway has nothing going for it, that's it, linking it up to any other greenways will not change that.
anyone stopping for food will be looking for somewhere worth while stopping, and that is on the greenways linking the actual sites of interest.
if you want actual greenways in the county then get behind those instead of supporting an expensive but subpar one, because the county deserves much better then this nothing to offer greenway.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Also that “well thought out business case” you mention is nothing but a train enthusiasts wet dream.
It’s not happening, get over it and move on.

riddlinrussell · 12-03-2021 5:06pm

end of the road wrote: »

they wouldn't be investing it in a ghost train that would carry a car load in this case, as the well put together business case by south east on track shows.

there would b no empty train to cost a fortune, so you may as well dispence with that idea as the very well put together business case by southeast on track shows that there would be no ghost train.
i'm telling you as someone who actually knows the areas being discussed that this particular greenway has nothing going for it, that's it, linking it up to any other greenways will not change that.
anyone stopping for food will be looking for somewhere worth while stopping, and that is on the greenways linking the actual sites of interest.
if you want actual greenways in the county then get behind those instead of supporting an expensive but subpar one, because the county deserves much better then this nothing to offer greenway.

I am somewhat confused by the disconnect that there's a case for the railway but no case for the greenway.

The 'selling point' of many greenways may be tourism, but its been borne out numerous times that those that benefit are primarily locals gaining improved links for walking and cycling.

If the railway will be well used (As per SEoT) then why would the greenway not be well used? If the 'most viable' restoration of the route would be direct Wexford to Waterford with a single stop mid line (As per ohographite) The a greenway would be more beneficial to those towns whose stations are not restored surely?

Basing things on my own cycle commute, Campile, Ballycullane and Wellingtonbridge are all within the same radius from Waterford, so it would make Waterford a 'feasible' commute from those towns, and the same the other way to Rosslare. I'm not saying there would be many takers for that, but the possibility exists.

PhilOssophy · 13-03-2021 10:42am

end of the road wrote: »

they wouldn't be investing it in a ghost train that would carry a car load in this case, as the well put together business case by south east on track shows.

there would b no empty train to cost a fortune, so you may as well dispence with that idea as the very well put together business case by southeast on track shows that there would be no ghost train.
i'm telling you as someone who actually knows the areas being discussed that this particular greenway has nothing going for it, that's it, linking it up to any other greenways will not change that.
anyone stopping for food will be looking for somewhere worth while stopping, and that is on the greenways linking the actual sites of interest.
if you want actual greenways in the county then get behind those instead of supporting an expensive but subpar one, because the county deserves much better then this nothing to offer greenway.

You do know you can put anything in a business case, right? There might be a world of difference between actual usage and estimated usage. If there was a business case for the line, where were these users 10 years ago when the line was open? Getting (paying) bums on seats on a train is a totally different proposition to quoting population figures.

I would have expected people to be enthusiastic about a greenway which might encourage people to our lovely beaches from another greenway? Also I have a relation in England who has a coffee shop in a remote part where cycling holidays are common - he employs 5-6 people in a coffee shop all year round. The town is probably the size of Campile and in a remote location. So if you really think there's no market for such an enterprise, I think you might be underestimating the potential here.

Working class heroes wrote: »

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Also that “well thought out business case” you mention is nothing but a train enthusiasts wet dream.
It’s not happening, get over it and move on.

Agree.

end of the road · 13-03-2021 1:36pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You do know you can put anything in a business case, right? There might be a world of difference between actual usage and estimated usage. If there was a business case for the line, where were these users 10 years ago when the line was open? Getting (paying) bums on seats on a train is a totally different proposition to quoting population figures.

I would have expected people to be enthusiastic about a greenway which might encourage people to our lovely beaches from another greenway? Also I have a relation in England who has a coffee shop in a remote part where cycling holidays are common - he employs 5-6 people in a coffee shop all year round. The town is probably the size of Campile and in a remote location. So if you really think there's no market for such an enterprise, I think you might be underestimating the potential here.

Agree.

where were the extra users 11 years ago?
well, they were in their cars because the service was well, CIE's best, as in barely existant.
anyway, many had thought the line stopped operating years ago, which says it all, that the operator made no actual effort.
there is a market for a high quality, actual greenway, which is what i and others are looking for.
that involves interlinking greenways to the actual sites of interested and all else, which can then link up to the new ross one so people can go on further.
the south wexford greenway just doesn't cut it and that is why it should and will be opposed regardless of any decision over the railway, because we deserve a better greenway then that.

ohographite · 13-03-2021 3:46pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

So not only do you want to rob the people of South Wexford of a great local amenity that could be of tremendous use to them.
Now you want to tell some of them that the train line to be reinstated instead isn't even going to serve them anymore

A railway doesn't need to have a station in every village it passes through. All over the country there are villages with an operational railway running through them, but no station in them. I suggested the reopening of Bridgetown station and Ballycullane station, since the latter is about 10km from both Campile and Wellingtonbridge, meaning that people from Campile or Wellingtonbridge could drive to Ballycullane if they want to take the train. I know it is less good than having a train station in your village, but a station in Ballycullane still serves Wellingtonbridge and Campile to a certain extent.

Del.Monte · 13-03-2021 7:09pm

ohographite wrote: »

A railway doesn't need to have a station in every village it passes through. All over the country there are villages with an operational railway running through them, but no station in them. I suggested the reopening of Bridgetown station and Ballycullane station, since the latter is about 10km from both Campile and Wellingtonbridge, meaning that people from Campile or Wellingtonbridge could drive to Ballycullane if they want to take the train. I know it is less good than having a train station in your village, but a station in Ballycullane still serves Wellingtonbridge and Campile to a certain extent.

Starting to tinker with which stations you reopen only makes your case look weaker and is the sort of nonsense that CIE have been at for years. When the sundries freight service on the South Wexford line was withdrawn the goods were then delivered by road from Wexford - when the sundries service was withdrawn from the Connolly/Wexford/Line the traffic was handled from Bagenalstown or Carlow (can't remember which) and by the time they had finished there was no traffic left - what a surprise.

PhilOssophy · 14-03-2021 2:52pm

end of the road wrote: »

where were the extra users 11 years ago?
well, they were in their cars because the service was well, CIE's best, as in barely existant.
anyway, many had thought the line stopped operating years ago, which says it all, that the operator made no actual effort.
there is a market for a high quality, actual greenway, which is what i and others are looking for.
that involves interlinking greenways to the actual sites of interested and all else, which can then link up to the new ross one so people can go on further.
the south wexford greenway just doesn't cut it and that is why it should and will be opposed regardless of any decision over the railway, because we deserve a better greenway then that.

Well I'll put it to you that the service was non-existant because the demand for the service was non-existant.

ohographite wrote: »

A railway doesn't need to have a station in every village it passes through. All over the country there are villages with an operational railway running through them, but no station in them. I suggested the reopening of Bridgetown station and Ballycullane station, since the latter is about 10km from both Campile and Wellingtonbridge, meaning that people from Campile or Wellingtonbridge could drive to Ballycullane if they want to take the train. I know it is less good than having a train station in your village, but a station in Ballycullane still serves Wellingtonbridge and Campile to a certain extent.

By the time they have driven to there and got the train, they could be in either Wexford or Waterford, especially is in Waterford they need to go somewhere other than the train station because it isn't near anything. Nobody is going to get into their car, drive 10km to get a train when their destination is another 15-20 minutes drive away.

Do you lads seriously think that this is how 100m + the annual operational bill (which will be significant because it won't be anything other than a money pit) is the best way to spend this money in Wexford? Imagine what that money could do if we divided it 25m between Wexford/New Ross/Enniscorthy/Gorey or if we put it in to the many other services for both physical and mental health or special needs assistants in our schools and the like?

I'm going to unfollow now but I think youse lads are deluded if you think there is either the demand or the business case for this. If I saw our hard earned money being spent on this, when it would be better spent upgrading the Rosslare-Dublin line (particularly north of Gorey where there might be demand for the service) I would be very disappointed in our Dept of Transport.

ohographite · 14-03-2021 3:22pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Well I'll put it to you that the service was non-existant because the demand for the service was non-existant.

By the time they have driven to there and got the train, they could be in either Wexford or Waterford, especially is in Waterford they need to go somewhere other than the train station because it isn't near anything. Nobody is going to get into their car, drive 10km to get a train when their destination is another 15-20 minutes drive away.

Do you lads seriously think that this is how 100m + the annual operational bill (which will be significant because it won't be anything other than a money pit) is the best way to spend this money in Wexford? Imagine what that money could do if we divided it 25m between Wexford/New Ross/Enniscorthy/Gorey or if we put it in to the many other services for both physical and mental health or special needs assistants in our schools and the like?

I'm going to unfollow now but I think youse lads are deluded if you think there is either the demand or the business case for this. If I saw our hard earned money being spent on this, when it would be better spent upgrading the Rosslare-Dublin line (particularly north of Gorey where there might be demand for the service) I would be very disappointed in our Dept of Transport.

I bet that the railway could have attracted much higher demand if it had had a better service when it was open.
I know some people who drive from their villages to train stations, and take the train from there.
I do not like being referred to as deluded.

end of the road · 14-03-2021 3:42pm

ohographite wrote: »

I bet that the railway could have attracted much higher demand if it had had a better service when it was open.
I know some people who drive from their villages to train stations, and take the train from there.
I do not like being referred to as deluded.

100% correct.

Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

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