Theoretical Cork Suburban/Commuter Lines

Leaving aside the fact that none of this would ever get built given the intransigence of the local population and the manifest incompetence of the city council & executive, any type of underground track through Cork city is foolhardy to put it mildly. The entire city centre sits on a deep layer of sediments that makes tunneling a pain in the neck, not to mention prohibitively expensive.

If you insist on a suburban rail network for Cork, the Karlsruhe model would be the best option. Faced with a similar situation, the city of Karlsruhe opted to utilise existing heavy rail lines to run tram lines into the suburbs and rural areas beyond. This has since been adopted by other cities in Germany, such as Kassel or Chemnitz for example.

With this model, you could still have your suburban lines outside the city, which would merge with the road system to traverse the city center, only for them to then connect to the existing suburban network at Kent Station. Google "Stadtbahn Karlsruhe" to see what I mean.

A commuter line to Carrigaline with at least two stations in the Carrigaline area would be great, sharing track with a spur line to Ringaskiddy which would also accommodate Freight. Impose a toll for cars using the M28 from North of Carrigaline to discourage it's use as a commuter motorway and promote the rail alternative. Additional stations in the Douglas area would be most welcome.

They're still building semi ds in cul de sacs on the edge of the mess that is Carrigaline, so prob not much point talking about it if this is what is considered sustainable development.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.8050797,-8.3939641,3a,75y,119.36h,82.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxO2pTo4gfOhLposvKEO6CQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DxO2pTo4gfOhLposvKEO6CQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D140.33888%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Long term Skib, Clonakilty and Bandon do need a rail connection to Cork, perhaps this would be less of a commuter and more of an intercity route though given the distance and lack of stops.

Carrigaline is currently the second biggest town in Ireland without a rail line or a rail line planned. It will almost certainly overtake Letterkenny’s population in the next few years, possibly by this years census, to take first spot. Douglas is the biggest suburb in Ireland without a rail line or a rail line planned. Both Douglas and Carrigaline are completely excluded from the planned light rail and commuter rail networks. If another line was to be added to plans for Cork it would have to be Carrigaline to the city centre via Douglas.

The irony is that there was a railway line to Carrigaline up until 1932. Closed by the Great Southern Railways as it was not profitable.

There is a relatively easy win (heavy emphasis on 'relatively' here) and I've never heard it mentioned. Turn Kent station into a 100% through station. Build a new station at Victoria Road, smack bang in the middle of all of the new developments. Cork-Dublin mainline goes through Kent, and swings across the river further down Horgans Quay and into the new station. It will also allow for a future 'fantasy' line through the southside/city. Separately, the Cobh/Midleton line could follow the proposed new bridge from the skew bridge and come into the new station which would give options on that eastern corridor given that it is actually going to be developed.

Total fantasy, but I do worry that we'll develop this huge Brownfield area and not incorporate nearly enough public transport provisions.

Interesting. Can't find any plans for this but I hope they include some new pedestrian access to the new platforms instead of just relying on the existing underpass which brings you up to platform 5 at the northern end. Commuter rail needs to be quick and handy and not send people on a walkabout of Kent to get a train.

Found a drawing of the new platform. Based on this the extended platform 5 will be over 400 metres long! 😳

To be honest, I don't think there'll be many people who actually change to other trains. Most of the commuters will likely either transfer to the buses departing from the south side of the station or heading to the new offices at Horgan's Quay and Penrose Dock. And for those, the existing subway is honestly the best option.

Surely, in the event of all trains not being through services, those passengers could change at Glounthaune or Little Island?

I think that you're exaggerating this somewhat. With two branches in East Cork, people travelling to the individual legs will have to choose their service as needs be. That's what using a timetable is for.

We have not even seen proposed service patterns yet in any case.

I'm not exaggerating at all, as one of the few people I know who has attempted the transfer! Little Island and Glounthaune are not easy places to transfer. Nobody is going to do it more than once or twice, realistically.

You're talking about having people wait in the cold in Glounthaune or Little Island for a transfer to get to Blackpool: absolutely nobody will do it. They'll prefer to go direct to Kent and taxi/cycle/walk from there. At best. Or just drive, as most do currently. And accordingly the whole concept of a commuter network falls apart.

For a specific example of how little I'm exaggerating, I recently ordered a Taxi from Kent to Little Island rather than to wait in Kent for 75 mins in Kent for a connection.

If it’s high frequency, and a same platform change, how are Little Island or Glounthaune difficult places to change?

You seem to be basing all of this on current service levels. The whole point of the CMATS plan is to have a high frequency service from Mallow through Cork to either Midleton or Cobh. It certainly won’t be an hourly service.

And passengers going to/from either of the east Cork branches would do exactly what people going to/from Howth or Malahide do - they check the timetable beforehand and get the train that goes to/from their branch.

There is no actual plan for any link to the (existing, Northern) DART line; of any kind. Some vague kite flying is all there is. Metrolink will link it to DART+ at Glasnevin.

There was a kite flying exercise. It never got as far as being a plan

It's an excellent service. I couldn't possibly be more positive about it. I use it whenever possible, usually from Glounthaune and Little Island.

And in saying that, I don't think the platform swap in Little Island or Glounthaune are a good idea in the current station form.

Of the two, Little Island is more viable, as you could change platform by going up the N25 slip road and back down the old road, and back into the station from the other side. Whereas putting in a new platform overbridge in Glounthaune is a much bigger effort.

It should be interesting to see if they do go for that.

Again, my overall point was only that I'd have thought an easy platform change would be important in Kent for the "through" services.

This was discussed at length in another thread, possibly the thread relating to the Greenway.

To re-state some of the points raised:

Long distance between Midleton and Youghal: reasonably high cost line to deliver.

No significant population centres in Mogeely, Killeagh (or even Youghal itself): reasonably low ridership.

Some encroachment on the line: reasonably slow/legal effort to resolve.

Greenway architecture is light and easy to deliver: no issues with reinstating the rail line in future if needed.

My two cents: you could try to extend the line piecemeal by putting in a densely-zoned area and master plan in Mogeely, and extend to there first, but all the way to Youghal at once would not be good bang for buck right now. Better value to be had with East Cork commuter rail via new stations at Water Rock, Carrigtwohill West (IDA). Possibly if someone was being very adventurous and had lots of money to spend on East Cork rail, you could perhaps plan a P&R just East of the distillery, taking cars from both Dungourney and Castlemartyr directions.

I don't agree with you based on the distances and population centres concerned.

Definitely on - for instance - the Blackrock Passage greenway in Cork, sharing luas and Greenway makes sense but I think for the lesser density ones you mention then sharing space with the Greenway means the "luas" type system travels too slowly to be attractive to end users with long transit time between stops. For that slower "luas" type system I think you need more frequent stops. AKA a more urban area.

I'm totally in favour of greenway and commuter rail sharing a corridor side-by-side though. Although I believe Irish Rail are not in favour of it, lest they be "hemmed in".

It is a P&R but it's not heavily used really, probably because of the location.

With traffic, if you can drive to the Midleton P&R then you can normally afford to drive much further. You'd really like that Easternmost P&R to take in traffic from East Cork (Killeagh, Mogeely, Castlemartyr, Youghal) but for them to get to Midleton train station is a bit messy. They'd be most of the way to Glounthaune by the time they would be at Midleton train station. From Glounthaune you also get higher frequency of trains. So Midleton is not doing a great job as a P&R in practice. Glounthaune is actually very popular, I've often seen all parking spaces full, and roadside parking outside the station. In my experience a lot of those seem to drive from the East, like I describe. Little Island is also quite popular as a P&R and has a lot of available parking.

I'm not criticising Midleton station at all here, just that the P&R aspect isn't heavily used from what I've seen.

As I say, the best way I see to expand commuter rail towards Youghal would be incrementally via development of Mogeely. You avoid the encroachment locations, it has comparatively low costs of line and station, etc. But the low hanging fruit in East Cork is Water Rock, Carrigtwohill West and maybe soon Tivoli.

The Waterrock SHD was approved....... Edit: I think I'm wrong here: on the SHD approval, I think maybe only the transport infrastructure for development was approved, and that I conflated infrastructure and the housing in my head! The transport/water infrastructure is approved and funded in Waterrock. Work is theoretically underway, though I haven't seen anything on the ground. I see this area's development as being "real" and in the near future.

Tivoli seems to way off alright. Unfortunately.

Struggling to find it myself! I'm beginning to think I conflated the detailed plan and the LIHAF approval. But I remember reading specifically that "Phase 1 has the approval to go ahead", and the units that would entail etc. I remember because I was disappointed that rail would not be in place for Phase 1. I will keep looking here, but am beginning to doubt myself!

The Phase 1 is definitely the housing too, the infrastructure being done "now" is to allow Phase 1 to commence. Housing phases 2 and 3 will need further infrastructure. I don't know if the infrastructure was described in phases but rather "Projects". Sadly no sign of the railway station as a "project" yet.

You could be right about the length of time, I think the station won't happen until phase 2 at a minimum. But I see that as being "this decade". Tivoli, not so much.