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Theoretical Cork Suburban/Commuter Lines

ncounties

I had my crayons out again this morning, thinking of ways sub-urban rail transport could be improved in Cork.

One thought includes a 5km heavy rail tunnel - I know we don't have something like this in Dublin but hear me out - where it begins to the west of Kent station, before continuing on to St. Patrick St/Grand Parade, where there would be an underground station. It would then continue on to UCC, where there'd be another underground station, before turning south and end just south of South Side Industrial Station.

There could be an above ground station here, which could coincide with redevelopment of the estate to residential. The line would then continue on to past east of the airport, where another station would be provided. There'd then be two options, continue on to Kinsale, or more likely continue on to Carrigaline. Preferably, two spurs to both locations could be provided.

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moceri

The irony is that there was a railway line to Carrigaline up until 1932. Closed by the Great Southern Railways as it was not profitable.

Pete_Cavan

There is no chance of it happening before 2050 but if a new commuter rail line was to be created in Cork, surely it would have to follow the South Link Road, either taking half the roadspace or under in a cut and cover tunnel. C'n'C would be so disruptive for so long that it may be better to just take the roadspace permanently.

In the city, it may have to do a loop, up Eglinton Street then round by Kent before heading south again. At the southern end, it could swing east along the N40 to Douglas, etc. Potentially it could also split with a spur going to the airport.

snotboogie

Carrigaline is currently the second biggest town in Ireland without a rail line or a rail line planned. It will almost certainly overtake Letterkenny’s population in the next few years, possibly by this years census, to take first spot. Douglas is the biggest suburb in Ireland without a rail line or a rail line planned. Both Douglas and Carrigaline are completely excluded from the planned light rail and commuter rail networks. If another line was to be added to plans for Cork it would have to be Carrigaline to the city centre via Douglas.

namloc1980

While I enjoy thinking about potential improvements to Cork transport the fact that we can't organise a functioning bus lane on Patrick Street doesn't inspire confidence that larger scale projects will ever see the light of day or at least will take a ludicrously long time to deliver.

It's a year since the final version of CMATS was published (nearly 2 years since the draft was published) and when you look at CMATS implementation timeframe the only element of an improvement to the Cork suburban rail network envisaged by 2026 is through running at Kent Station! That's it. All the important stuff like electrification, increased frequency and dual tracking to Midleton are kicked out to closer to 2040. The timelines in CMATS are utterly unambitious and disappointing.

You're talking 30+ years for any possibility of rail lines to Carrigaline or West Cork to even be on the agenda for discussion. 50+ years for implementation (and that's probably being overly optimistic).

cgcsb

A commuter line to Carrigaline with at least two stations in the Carrigaline area would be great, sharing track with a spur line to Ringaskiddy which would also accommodate Freight. Impose a toll for cars using the M28 from North of Carrigaline to discourage it's use as a commuter motorway and promote the rail alternative. Additional stations in the Douglas area would be most welcome.

They're still building semi ds in cul de sacs on the edge of the mess that is Carrigaline, so prob not much point talking about it if this is what is considered sustainable development.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@51.8050797,-8.3939641,3a,75y,119.36h,82.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxO2pTo4gfOhLposvKEO6CQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DxO2pTo4gfOhLposvKEO6CQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D140.33888%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Long term Skib, Clonakilty and Bandon do need a rail connection to Cork, perhaps this would be less of a commuter and more of an intercity route though given the distance and lack of stops.

ncounties

rebs23 wrote: »

We already have dedicated Cork commuter lines to Cobh and Midleton with a shared commuter line to Mallow. There are extensive proposals in CMATS for new stations along the network in Blarney, Blackpool, Dunkettle and Water Rock (I think) so lets use and maximise use on the existing network. This is not including the light rail proposed for the City in CMATS.
Seems there are lots fanciful rail project proposals in this forum. Could we not concentrate on the ones that are feasible?

It’s an infrastructure forum. We’re allowed to discuss theoretical or actual (many of which are theoretical anyway) infrastructure schemes.

rebs23

We already have dedicated Cork commuter lines to Cobh and Midleton with a shared commuter line to Mallow. There are extensive proposals in CMATS for new stations along the network in Blarney, Blackpool, Dunkettle and Water Rock (I think) so lets use and maximise use on the existing network. This is not including the light rail proposed for the City in CMATS.
Seems there are lots fanciful rail project proposals in this forum. Could we not concentrate on the ones that are feasible?

thomil

Zaney wrote: »

I too would think the geology would make it near impossible, but the Jack Lynch tunnel got built and I don’t know enough to say there wouldn’t be technical solutions.

Oh, there are technical solutions, no doubt about that. Hamburg just finished building a fully-fledged underground line into what is essentially reclaimed tidal flats in the city's old port, in the shape of the extension of the U4 line into the "HafenCity" redevelopment. It's just very complex. Also, an underground line would require quite a bit more excavation than just a mere tunnel. You need stations with stairs/escalators & elevators, possibly emergency exits and all that, watertight doors to seal off tunnel segments or stations in case of flooding, I think you get the picture

For what would in effect be a very short line, this seems like overkill to me.

The flooding Cork City suffers from would also pose many issues for underground stations.

Keep in mind Cork City center is an island and once a partial swamp. Cork use to be like Venice with Patrick St etc. were canals until they were filled in.

Zaney

thomil wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that none of this would ever get built given the intransigence of the local population and the manifest incompetence of the city council & executive, any type of underground track through Cork city is foolhardy to put it mildly. The entire city centre sits on a deep layer of sediments that makes tunneling a pain in the neck, not to mention prohibitively expensive.

If you insist on a suburban rail network for Cork, the Karlsruhe model would be the best option. Faced with a similar situation, the city of Karlsruhe opted to utilise existing heavy rail lines to run tram lines into the suburbs and rural areas beyond. This has since been adopted by other cities in Germany, such as Kassel or Chemnitz for example.

With this model, you could still have your suburban lines outside the city, which would merge with the road system to traverse the city center, only for them to then connect to the existing suburban network at Kent Station. Google "Stadtbahn Karlsruhe" to see what I mean.

I too would think the geology would make it near impossible, but the Jack Lynch tunnel got built and I don’t know enough to say there wouldn’t be technical solutions.

Would agree a tram/train approach makes more sense. The Luas green line is not unlike that and 25km long and planned to be extended more.

But still pointless. Carrigaline with its cul de sacs of semi-d’s and dispersed trips to Ringaskiddy, and across Cork and beyond is built for the car.

Kinsale is too small and too far removed (as in too much greenfield to get through)

thomil

Leaving aside the fact that none of this would ever get built given the intransigence of the local population and the manifest incompetence of the city council & executive, any type of underground track through Cork city is foolhardy to put it mildly. The entire city centre sits on a deep layer of sediments that makes tunneling a pain in the neck, not to mention prohibitively expensive.

If you insist on a suburban rail network for Cork, the Karlsruhe model would be the best option. Faced with a similar situation, the city of Karlsruhe opted to utilise existing heavy rail lines to run tram lines into the suburbs and rural areas beyond. This has since been adopted by other cities in Germany, such as Kassel or Chemnitz for example.

With this model, you could still have your suburban lines outside the city, which would merge with the road system to traverse the city center, only for them to then connect to the existing suburban network at Kent Station. Google "Stadtbahn Karlsruhe" to see what I mean.

ncounties

Zaney wrote: »

I admire your ambition and definitely something significant has to be done to improve public transport in Cork.

But I don’t see the concentration of demand you’d need. UCC is near empty for a significant portáin of the year. Can’t see how it would work if you still let people drive around above ground. You might even have to close Patrick St anyway to build the station access.

Would people bother to climb up and down escalators for relatively short trips?

And if you stop people driving, why not just build a luas on the free’d up space. Much easier for passengers to access.

Whilst I think trams would be much better for inner city transport, I was more concerned about suburban/commuter transport. Enabling individuals in Kinsale/Carrigaline to get to the city centre, or use rail for their whole journey to locations further afield (say Dublin) was the main purpose of the scheme. Hence the desire to connect these lines with Kent Station.

To do so would require extreme rerouting, demolition or tunnelling. Tunnelling felt like the most appropriate, and the two underground stations serve only to provide more value from the scheme (they would be elsewhere), but they are in themselves, not the reason for the scheme.

With city centre stops though in a number of locations, commuter services could run from say Kinsale to Cobh, making rail transport even more attractive for those living in local towns/villages with existing services, or travelling from further afield.

Zaney

ncounties wrote: »

I had my crayons out again this morning, thinking of ways sub-urban rail transport could be improved in Cork.

One thought includes a 5km heavy rail tunnel - I know we don't have something like this in Dublin but hear me out - where it begins to the west of Kent station, before continuing on to St. Patrick St/Grand Parade, where there would be an underground station. It would then continue on to UCC, where there'd be another underground station, before turning south and end just south of South Side Industrial Station.

There could be an above ground station here, which could coincide with redevelopment of the estate to residential. The line would then continue on to past east of the airport, where another station would be provided. There'd then be two options, continue on to Kinsale, or more likely continue on to Carrigaline. Preferably, two spurs to both locations could be provided.

I admire your ambition and definitely something significant has to be done to improve public transport in Cork.

But I don’t see the concentration of demand you’d need. UCC is near empty for a significant portáin of the year. Can’t see how it would work if you still let people drive around above ground. You might even have to close Patrick St anyway to build the station access.

Would people bother to climb up and down escalators for relatively short trips?

And if you stop people driving, why not just build a luas on the free’d up space. Much easier for passengers to access.