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organic farming

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    #32
    trabpc
    Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭trabpc


    Ah. So if in Glas not all organic payments will be eligible?


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    #33
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    My understanding is as one of the cornerstones of the organic certification is animal welfare once you can make the case that animal welfare will be impacted negatively you can use what you like(except gm)


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    #34
    kelslat
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭kelslat


    If a group of animals get sick for one reason or another and you give them antibiotics I believe they don't qualify as organic, so how would this affect payment if you go below your minimum stocking levels for the scheme?


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    #35
    Mehaffey1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭Mehaffey1


    Worked on an organic dairy farm in NZ. Looking back the farm produced very well but the mastitis would cripple you mentally if it takes hold. Had 26 out of 300 cows on Apple cider vinegar and cell count at 343,000. Where im working now has all cows clear except one lame on penicillin out of 30. Also, knowing a bit more than I did back then I don't think I'd be happy not being able to treat lames but it's all about the level of management as all things are really.


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    #36
    barnaman
    Registered Users Posts: 682 ✭✭✭barnaman


    Now a lad went into Organics and regreting it. Very expensive nearly €600 a tonne for meal. No double payment on GLAS or Organics its one or the other. Cattle cannot get dosed with antibiotics and get sold as organic and over the life of a beast quite a few need an antibiotic; withdrawal periods doubled for medicines or tribled and the real killer is according to him need to book cattle in months in advance to factory. Might some but not easy. Also Organic hay is killing him cannot get it easily and he has none saved.


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    #37
    3611
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭3611


    Hi All, long time reader, first post!

    I joined organic this year as far as I am aware if an animal gets more than two courses of antibiotics in a calendar year they cannot be slaughtered as organic. Withdrawal period is doubled also.


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    #38
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    3611 wrote: »
    Hi All, long time reader, first post!

    I joined organic this year as far as I am aware if an animal gets more than two courses of antibiotics in a calendar year they cannot be slaughtered as organic. Withdrawal period is doubled also.

    Welcome on board

    Tell us a bit more about The pros and cons of organics


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    #39
    3611
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭3611


    I am very lowly stocked as just getting going with raw land which had been rented for years. I need to build up stock numbers, but also shed space and machinery. I am hoping the organic grant will be an additional payment which will help towards this. Don't want to borrow too much as already fairly heavily committed off farm!

    The organic tams seems great for equipment purchases, I hope dung will go a long way towards substituting for p&k. Also more likely to get dairy sludge if organic. I also intend to look at red clover as a protein source. I'm told getting your head around carrying less stock for most guys is the hardest part, but if selling for a premium hopefully evens this out.

    Scouring young stock will probably be my biggest issue as I don't want to go down the breeding route, due to real job commitments and time.

    Big plans just have to figure out how to fund it all!!


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    #40
    trabpc
    Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭trabpc


    My understanding is that if your not rearing your own stock but buying stock in each yr, you must buy organic stock. You cannot go to your normal mart and source your stock. So may not suit summer grazers. You options/sources to purchase these stock may be limited and you may pay more for them. Scheme only really suits those with sucklers and bedding on dung during winter thus having the waste to spread. Getting waste milk product from factories to supplement dung may not be easy. Alot want it now so you may have long wait if lucky.
    Info from 2 farmers i know in the scheme.


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    #41
    Tomjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭Tomjim


    I,m a commercial farmer currently in GLAS.


    If I was to turn organic
    How much extra in an organic payment would I receive taking into consideration my Glas payment

    What is the average stocking rate for an organic farm


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    #42
    tractorporn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭tractorporn


    Tomjim wrote:
    If I was to turn organic How much extra in an organic payment would I receive taking into consideration my Glas payment

    You won't get an organic payment on top of your glas payment. The organic licence will give priority access to GLAS but for the land you have in GLAS you will forgo the organic payment. So if you have 10Ha in low input pp you will get 314 for that and the rest of your land you can claim an organic payment. For your 2 year conversion period it's 220/Ha and then the payment for the remaining 3 years is 170/Ha


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    #43
    eoinmk2
    Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭eoinmk2


    anyone know if or when the next tranche of this scheme is opening?


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    #44
    The part time boy
    Registered Users Posts: 610 ✭✭✭The part time boy


    Any organic farmer here I could ask a few quistions?


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    #45
    tractorporn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭tractorporn


    The part time boy wrote:
    Any organic farmer here I could ask a few quistions?

    Pm me if you want I'll try my best to answer any questions


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    #46
    orchard farm
    Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭orchard farm


    yea fire away!!


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    #47
    3611
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭3611


    Ask away. Pm if you like


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    #48
    kowtow
    Registered Users Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    I didn't realise we had so many organic farmers around, that's a hidden fount of knowledge if ever there was one!

    I hope they don't hand out all the advice by PM, I'd love to hear what they are all up to and the challenges of it. Every organic thread I ever read seems to be an enquiry about whether the grants are big enough to be worth the hassle of converting which is hardly the point!

    Bring it on!


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    #49
    3611
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭3611


    kowtow wrote: »
    I didn't realise we had so many organic farmers around, that's a hidden fount of knowledge if ever there was one!

    I hope they don't hand out all the advice by PM, I'd love to hear what they are all up to and the challenges of it. Every organic thread I ever read seems to be an enquiry about whether the grants are big enough to be worth the hassle of converting which is hardly the point!
    Bring it on!


    Ask away I will be convert in May. Payment is only one aspect of it. Inputs are a lot less and despite what everyone says I actually have grass in April!


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    #50
    orchard farm
    Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭orchard farm


    Same as that will be fully organic in may after 2 year conversion,im a young farmer living in north west where land is marginal with some good plots here and there,majority of farmers here are organic farming in all but name as its hard to stock much higher than min 0.5 lu/ha anyways with 6 month winters etc So not much change for me if anything i had to increase stock,bit more cleaning out of sheds and cant lick rushes apart from that the organic payment helps keep me farming full time and give me more interest in farming the land as opposed to just running 3 and 4 sucklers on rough hills of 20 acres plus also cant rely on 18-6-12 short tern fix so more interested in slowly increasing fertility of soil and getting ph right.Basically farming in harmony with nature as always has been done here anyway and hopefully add value to the excelent quality weanings that are produced in this area.The way i see it it was either try farm the land to its natural advantages or else give up plant trees and get a day job,and us farmers hate to give in:-)Only 1800 organic farmers in ireland is shocking since were such a green isle,but farmers are slow to change to their own detriment and to the advantage of fertilizer and chemical companys


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    #51
    kowtow
    Registered Users Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    When I look at organic milking herds in the UK doing 6 or 7k litres it strikes me that it is an option at least for irish farms.

    What are the major constraints... on stocking rate for example particularly if like many dairy farmers the milking platform is heavily stocked but silage etc grown on outfarm.

    I know organic feed is a problem presumably in an ideal world grown on farm?

    How do people manage the transition from intensive rotational grass to organic? And What about weed control?


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    #52
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    If doing organic sheep are you allowed to winter graze them on non organic land?


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    #53
    tractorporn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭tractorporn


    Willfarman wrote:
    If doing organic sheep are you allowed to winter graze them on non organic land?


    No if they graze non organic land the will lose their organic status you can work it the other way tho. If you have organic sheep you would be allowed bring in non organic cattle to graze for 120 days but they have to be managed organically while they are there.


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    #54
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    tractorporn wrote: »
    No if they graze non organic land the will lose their organic status you can work it the other way tho. If you have organic sheep you would be allowed bring in non organic cattle to graze for 120 days but they have to be managed organically while they are there.

    Other question. Is it possible to buy calves from a conventional farmer and rear them organically? Or would the milk powder be disallowed?


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    #55
    tractorporn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭tractorporn


    kowtow wrote:
    When I look at organic milking herds in the UK doing 6 or 7k litres it strikes me that it is an option at least for irish farms.

    kowtow wrote:
    What are the major constraints... on stocking rate for example particularly if like many dairy farmers the milking platform is heavily stocked but silage etc grown on outfarm.

    kowtow wrote:
    I know organic feed is a problem presumably in an ideal world grown on farm?

    kowtow wrote:
    How do people manage the transition from intensive rotational grass to organic? And What about weed control?

    Organic dairying looks to be the most viable of any farm enterprise in Ireland at the moment. If I wasn't so fragmented here I would look to go down that route. Was at two organic dairy farm walks in the past 12 months prices were quoted of 60c/litre for a six month winter and 40c/litre for the summer.

    Both farms I was on have cut numbers the guy in Portlaoise went from 180 come on 80Ha to 110 cows but is starting to rise numbers again. The guy in Westmeath had a SR of 1.8LU/Ha

    There are two main constraints as I see it to organic dairying. To get a contract you must be willing to have 80% winter milk and organic feed is 550/ton so it's costly. Some guys are getting great results from red clover silage but you will still need to feed. The other thing is there are less than 40 organic dairy farms in the country. It wouldn't take a lot to flood that and end up with the same price as the conventional guys.


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    #56
    tractorporn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭tractorporn


    Willfarman wrote:
    Other question. Is it possible to buy calves from a conventional farmer and rear them organically? Or would the milk powder be disallowed?

    Once you join all your inputs must be organic and that includes your stock so the only time you can buy conventional stock is a heifer for breeding and even then you can only apply for 10% of your adult stock.

    Milk replacer is not allowed only for emergencies. There is only one guy in Ireland buying calves and feeding them but he is also buying milk from the same farmer as the calves and feeding them that.


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    #57
    3611
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭3611


    kowtow wrote: »
    When I look at organic milking herds in the UK doing 6 or 7k litres it strikes me that it is an option at least for irish farms.

    What are the major constraints... on stocking rate for example particularly if like many dairy farmers the milking platform is heavily stocked but silage etc grown on outfarm.

    I know organic feed is a problem presumably in an ideal world grown on farm?

    How do people manage the transition from intensive rotational grass to organic? And What about weed control?

    Very technical questions to be asking a beef Farmer!
    Feed is expensive for dairy and otherwise, red clover seems to factor massively and homegrown crops also. Under sowing seems to manage weeds in new pasture.

    I think you just have to accept a lower stocking rate, knowing that you have less inputs,higher margin on product and the grant to make up for the lack of numbers.


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    #58
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    How long does red clover last? I have some going into it's third season this year.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #59
    tractorporn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭tractorporn


    blue5000 wrote:
    How long does red clover last? I have some going into it's third season this year.

    Have seen some in its 6th year but it had been exclusively for 3 cut silage and was never grazed. I have some here going into it's 3rd year and the clover is nearly gone it's on a peat soil and it's really not suited to it at all.


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    #60
    3611
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭3611


    blue5000 wrote: »
    How long does red clover last? I have some going into it's third season this year.

    I'm told 5 years. Really have to mind it though. Seemingly if you cut it to low or put too much weight on it you damage it.

    Most organic guys I have spoken to use it for 2/3 years to build N then take oat's off it for 2 years.

    Edit to day tractorporn above is a lot more detailed than me!


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    #61
    cahergowan
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭cahergowan


    questions please , we will do our best


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