Working Class

16-02-2020 8:10pm #1

I've been seeing this term coming up a lot lately from the SF, or housing related threads, and I'm a bit confused as to who in Ireland would be considered working class?

Is it a matter of being born into a working class family, and thus you're working class forever, regardless of your income and educational qualifications? Or does having a degree and a professional job move you into middle class?

Is working class a standard of living where your salary is lower than the average? Or the type of work, like working in a supermarket, or a cafe?

Like, I'm from what's considered a middle class family, my parents both being teachers, but my income is nowhere close to what they achieved while they were working. I do own a house, but the mortgage guarantees that my lifestyle is rather minimal (should I live in my house and stay in Ireland). I wouldn't consider myself to be working class, as such, but I do work, and I'm nowhere close to being secure/comfortable financially speaking.

So... What is working class to you, and could you define the limits? Not just a one liner, but actually spell out whether it's permanent, dependent on income, education, etc. How does someone move from working class into Middle class, and also move from middle class into working class?

Cheers.

Ninthlife · 16-02-2020 8:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've been seeing this term coming up a lot lately from the SF, or housing related threads, and I'm a bit confused as to who in Ireland would be considered working class?

Is it a matter of being born into a working class family, and thus you're working class forever, regardless of your income and educational qualifications? Or does having a degree and a professional job move you into middle class?

Is working class a standard of living where your salary is lower than the average? Or the type of work, like working in a supermarket, or a cafe?

Like, I'm from what's considered a middle class family, my parents both being teachers, but my income is nowhere close to what they achieved while they were working. I do own a house, but the mortgage guarantees that my lifestyle is rather minimal (should I live in my house and stay in Ireland). I wouldn't consider myself to be working class, as such, but I do work, and I'm nowhere close to being secure/comfortable financially speaking.

So... What is working class to you, and could you define the limits? Not just a one liner, but actually spell out whether it's permanent, dependent on income, education, etc. How does someone move from working class into Middle class, and also move from middle class into working class?

Cheers.

Working for a living but too rich to be poor and too poor to be rich

blindside88 · 16-02-2020 8:17pm

A lot of people in Ireland refer to themselves as “working class” despite the fact that they along with their parents are on social welfare and have no intention of working. Both myself and my wife are in well paying jobs and have our own home but I would consider us to be working class as we are about a months pay from having nothing

16-02-2020 8:18pm

So much for the request for more than a one liner.

Come on folks, you can do better than that. I'm not looking for a political/moral statement. Give me something to work with.

imme · 16-02-2020 8:25pm

It is a redundant term.

Paddy O'Gorman from RTE radio was interviewing people outside the Social Welfare office before Christmas 2019.

One woman was saying how her children all wanted x,y,z items.

She said how she would be spending €1,000 on each child.

Oh, to be working class,
fancy phones and Canada Goose coats.

Pinch Flat · 16-02-2020 8:26pm

Working class would mean generally unskilled or semi skilled blue collar manual work and some white collar workers who are paid a weekly wage.

doughef · 16-02-2020 8:28pm

Also - I’m not really sure you change being working class unless you aspire to .

Case in point .. Liam and Noel Gallagher / both multi millionaires but always proud to be working class

Rufeo · 16-02-2020 9:54pm

Basically it's Irish people importing some foreign culture and using that to describe Irish life.

There's no class system in Ireland. There's just rich people and poor people.

Trigger Happy · 16-02-2020 10:12pm

Rufeo wrote: »

Basically it's Irish people importing some foreign culture and using that to describe Irish life.

There's no class system in Ireland. There's just rich people and poor people.

Or..ireland could be split in to tax dodgers, tax payers and tax spenders...

BuboBubo · 16-02-2020 10:16pm

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Or..ireland could be split in to tax dodgers, tax payers and tax spenders...

Rich bastards.
Squeezed middle.
Welfare class.

Jimbob1977 · 16-02-2020 10:17pm

Rightly or wrongly.....

Traditionally, working class people were employed in 'manual' trades that did not require a university or third level education.

You'd be talking about bus drivers, factory workers, Council labourers, etc. They would earn a modest wage and tend to live in similar areas, possibly in a Council-owned house. They would have adequate income to survive, but luxuries like cars and foreign holidays would be a stretch. Sending a child to university was a desirable goal, but the finances didn't allow for it. Unfortunately, the areas tended to get dragged down by a minority.

When the Irish economy picked up and 3rd level access became affordable, many 'working class' people had the opportunity to take up jobs that their parents could only dream about.

Middle class employees would tend to be university educated and have modest clerical or professional jobs, like working in a bank or as an engineer in the Council. Their income would allow for some luxuries, like home ownership and foreign holidays, but they weren't minted.

Upper class were likely to be either "born into money" or extremely good at what they did, e.g. surgeon, barrister, stock broker. They were paid for the value they created.

The waters have been muddied between hard-working people from the 'working classes'..... and people who simply can't and don't work.

An interesting fact.... 5% of Irish adults are described as 'disabled' on the last census. In some areas of Limerick, 15% of people have declared themselves as disabled and incapable of work. Unless they have localised TB or rickets, this is a wind-up.

Fireball81 · 16-02-2020 10:20pm

blindside88 wrote: »

A lot of people in Ireland refer to themselves as “working class” despite the fact that they along with their parents are on social welfare and have no intention of working. Both myself and my wife are in well paying jobs and have our own home but I would consider us to be working class as we are about a months pay from having nothing

This would be me and my wife too yet I doubt we would be your typical 'working class' family

Think the term could be redundant now...

Also think with a better economy and benchmarking traditionally lower paid jobs, the differences such as owning cars, foreign holidays and houses can now be the norm for those who it may not have been for in tbe past.

1o059k7ewrqj3n · 16-02-2020 10:20pm

If you work for a living you are working class.

Not at all to be confused with the underclass who do not work for a living.

Damien360 · 16-02-2020 10:22pm

imme wrote: »

It is a redundant term.

Paddy O'Gorman from RTE radio was interviewing people outside the Social Welfare office before Christmas 2019.

One woman was saying how her children all wanted x,y,z items.

She said how she would be spending €1,000 on each child.

Oh, to be working class,
fancy phones and Canada Goose coats.

I actually heard that interview at the time. It was for the Christmas bonus, and what it would be spent on. New iPhone for the kids and clobber to keep up with the Jones's (probably also on the scratcher).

Damien360 · 16-02-2020 10:25pm

Steyr 556 wrote: »

If you work for a living you are working class.

Not at all to be confused with the underclass who do not work for a living.

I liked the earlier definition. If you are working and are one months wages away from having no money. Living from wage packet to wage packet essentially.

16-02-2020 10:33pm

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

An interesting fact.... 5% of Irish adults are described as 'disabled' on the last census. In some areas of Limerick, 15% of people have declared themselves as disabled and incapable of work. Unless they have localised TB or rickets, this is a wind-up.

I have a shaking disorder which affects all of my body but in particular my hands and head. There are many jobs with physical requirements that I can't do, and there's other jobs like some parts of hospitality where my shaking makes some people uncomfortable and therefore I wouldn't get work easily. I could claim disability, but I don't... because there are plenty more jobs that I can do. I was raised by my parents to believe that I could conquer the obstacles that my disorder presented me with, and for the most part, I have.

I know a variety of people on disability benefits, and most of them need the benefit due to their physical/mental conditions, however, as in everything, there are some people who will use anything as an excuse to get a free ride.

Jurgen Klopp · 16-02-2020 11:20pm

I'd class working class as having little to no disposable income after paying bills, at least for an up to date view anyways. I guess it would once have strictly been labours, factory workers etc but frankly the way economies are now a third level degree doesn't guarantee a middle class life like it used to

I know tradesmen pulling in at least 50% more a week than some "professional" types

I don't like this craic of classing welfare for life types as working class as seems to be imported from the UK. Maybe it's just from days when low income and welfare leaches would be hosted together in council estates and so the stereotype of "working class" areas being wasters doing nothing but drinking and smoking comes from I don't know

But I'd rather it be labeled as welfare class if we are going to put some sort of PC term to the no interest in working ever types

ILoveYourVibes · 17-02-2020 12:38am

Traditionally people who rely solely on their wage for their income.

They have no inheritance or trust fund ...they have no rental income.

They received little or nothing from parents.

People who sell their skills for money.

They control very little capital at any one time. This is key. (its a huge economic disadvantage).

When people perhaps from this class start to GROW capital and have it to invest (in whatever property etc)...they leave this class.

Basically they are people who have to live paycheck to paycheck.

There is not much money left at the end of the month to build capital.

There is no source of capital other than the steady paycheck. None from family or other sources etc.

Middle class people often have no other income other than their paycheck either. They often have no inheritance or other income. But the difference is they have enough left at the end of the month to build up capital in savings etc. This will at some point BE an income source in terms of a pension etc. Working class people do not have this.

As you can see being working class leaves a person vulnerable to economic down turns. Or changes in industries. They often have had no capital to invest in education or capital to hold them over while they take the time off working to go through education. They might not have family support. Its almost always impossible for them to build up capital to make a pension. And in turn they cannot build up capital to hand over to their kids at some point. Thus its easier for their children to be working class also.

They do not own their own home. They have very few assets. Some exceptions to this in SOME economies include peasant farmers but this is not true in Ireland. Land prices are too high. You really couldn't consider farmers working class here.

So there you go ....if you strip away all the status bs ..all the stigma about where you come from ..what accent you have ..bleh bleh the stuff that doesn't matter. That is what working class is in economic terms.

No other source of income other than your paycheck. A paycheck so small you can't build capital. Very little amounts of capital none big enough to invest. Thus very little savings or investments or even none.No other assets such as home ownership or running a small business. You live pay check to pay check.

You got very little from your parents and the chances of you passing anything sizable to your kids are small.

Also they will not own any part of the work they produce so can't gain from it long term.

Junkyard Tom · 17-02-2020 12:49am

The more contemporary term is 'The Precariat'.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-02-2020 12:50am

You know what is really weird and telling about some people on here.

All the people who identified working class by some of the stereotypes and stigmas yet none by the actual economic circumstance that WILL make you working class over time if you let them.

I really hope young people don't get sucked into thinking its an accent or its where you come from. Its not. Yes people can be dicks about your accent. But that really doesn't matter. Long term ..money talks bull**** walks. People don't care how nice your accent is if you are a money pit. They might for a while but they will see through it eventually.

Its about high economic solvency. When you know what circumstances lead to being working class you can get out of it easier and stay out if it.

So be proud of your accent and focus on stuff that is REAL.

Money matters only in so far as it can provide for you and your family. But it matters.

Obv its your character that matters most though.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-02-2020 1:14am

We should do one for middle class upper class and RULING CLASS ...someone else make the threads for i am genuinely interested but afraid of being accused of spamming!

anewme · 17-02-2020 1:26am

The classes have changed since the working class dont work anymore.

Everyone who's not rich sits in the middle and keeps the place afloat.

17-02-2020 1:30am

It was described to me (by someone who would work with these sort of definitions) as having been considered something like the following, although things have merged considerably in the last decades.

The welfare dependent have barely enough or slightly less than enough funds to survive, and no emergency reserve. Education is not prioritized. Their credit rating would be poor and they neither own, nor expect to own, property. They would generally leave an estate of little or no value. They are likely to remain in the same small area they grew up in for life.

The working classes have enough funds to survive reasonably well and property, if owned, would be low-cost, often ex government housing. There would be little excess for recreation and little in reserve for emergencies. Education to secondary level would be important, with a focus on entry to skilled work such as the trades. They have low mobility, and are likely to remain in the same general area for life. Their credit rating would be low to good, and other borrowing would be usually limited to small loans from the Credit union or equivalent. Their estate would generally consist of a small family home and small savings.

The professional classes have enough to survive comfortably, can afford to buy in 'good' areas, have excess funds for discretionary spending, a cushion for emergencies, and the likelihood that things will continue to improve financially as life goes on. Education, often private, to third level and beyond for their kids would be a high priority. Their credit rating would be very good and they would be highly mobile, moving home a number of times in their lives. They would leave behind a substantial family home and perhaps an investment or holiday property, and substantial savings.

The weathly have comfortable lives with no money worries, plenty of excess money for recreation and substantial savings or funds in reserve. They own substantial, perhaps multiple properties. Their credit rating would be excellent. Their wealth is often a mixture of inheiritance and earned wealth and they are likely to hold powerful positions in industry or at the top of their professions. Private education is a given, and expectations for their children would be to at least match the achievements of the parents. Their estate would consist of properties, investments, savings and valuables such as art and jewelry.

My late grandfather explained it more succinctly:

The working class are donated their furniture.
The middle class buy their furniture.
The upper class inherit their furniture.

ITman88 · 17-02-2020 1:33am

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

An interesting fact.... 5% of Irish adults are described as 'disabled' on the last census. In some areas of Limerick, 15% of people have declared themselves as disabled and incapable of work. Unless they have localised TB or rickets, this is a wind-up.

I’ve had a few but this is the funniest paragraph I’ve read on boards!

ILoveYourVibes · 17-02-2020 1:34am

anewme wrote: »

The classes have changed since the working class dont work anymore.

Everyone who's not rich sits in the middle and keeps the place afloat.

You don't think the majority of irish people under 40 these days are working pay check to pay check with very little free capital and no future inheritance etc??

WHERE DO YOU LIVE?

Also there are a lot of working class people ...who think they are middle class ...economically they are not.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-02-2020 1:37am

doughef wrote: »

Also - I’m not really sure you change being working class unless you aspire to .

Case in point .. Liam and Noel Gallagher / both multi millionaires but always proud to be working class

That people such as the Gallaghers can identify as "working class," despite being relatively wealthy, shows that class identification these days can be as much a style or a state of mind as a tangible economic condition. Working-class people might eat fish and chips, drink lager, watch football and darts, and read the Sun, while scorning middle-class people who eat falafel, drink wine, watch tennis and golf, and read the Guardian. It's often about the signifiers you adopt rather than what job you do or how much money you earn.

mikemac2 · 17-02-2020 1:38am

imme wrote: »

It is a redundant term.

Paddy O'Gorman from RTE radio was interviewing people outside the Social Welfare office before Christmas 2019.

One woman was saying how her children all wanted x,y,z items.

She said how she would be spending €1,000 on each child.

Oh, to be working class,
fancy phones and Canada Goose coats.

I heard that one too

The kids needed an iPhone XR which was a little discounted as an old model but is still €600 plus

What child needs such a phone? Well it was justified that you couldn’t allow the child to fall behind their friends

Rodin · 17-02-2020 1:43am

mikemac2 wrote: »

I heard that one too

The kids needed an iPhone XR which was a little discounted as an old model but is still €600 plus

What child needs such a phone? Well it was justified that you couldn’t allow the child to fall behind their friends

There's not much to do in an emergency hotel room.
Warm room. Free heat and electric.
Iphone in hand.

Poverty and homeless apparently.

anewme · 17-02-2020 1:45am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You don't think the majority of irish people under 40 these days are working pay check to pay check with very little free capital and no future inheritance etc??

WHERE DO YOU LIVE?

Also there are a lot of working class people ...who think they are middle class ...economically they are not.

I'm not under 40 and I dont live pay check to pay check.

17-02-2020 1:45am

Rodin wrote: »

There's not much to do in an emergency hotel room.
Warm room. Free heat and electric.
Iphone in hand.

Poverty and homeless apparently.

Insecure accommodation and no power over the course of your life sounds like a pretty hopeless and miserable situation for me. I don't think many people would consider a family being trapped in a hotel room a great lifestyle.

anewme · 17-02-2020 1:46am

Natasha Harsh Royalty wrote: »

That people such as the Gallaghers can identify as "working class," despite being relatively wealthy, shows that class identification these days can be as much a style or a state of mind as a tangible economic condition. Working-class people might eat fish and chips, drink lager, watch football and darts, and read the Sun, while scorning middle-class people who eat falafel, drink wine, watch tennis and golf, and read the Guardian. It's often about the signifiers you adopt rather than what job you do or how much money you earn.

The Gallaghers are rich, millionaires, not relatively wealthy.

Working Class

Comments