Working Class

ILoveYourVibes

Natasha Harsh Royalty wrote: »

That people such as the Gallaghers can identify as "working class," despite being relatively wealthy, shows that class identification these days can be as much a style or a state of mind as a tangible economic condition. Working-class people might eat fish and chips, drink lager, watch football and darts, and read the Sun, while scorning middle-class people who eat falafel, drink wine, watch tennis and golf, and read the Guardian. It's often about the signifiers you adopt rather than what job you do or how much money you earn.

No its not.

Believe me they know they are no longer working class. They are just proud to have COME from the working class.

Its just an economic condition. It always has been. You can have assholes that will judge you by where you came from. But believe me they will laugh the other side of their faces when the tesla dealer is waiting on you and has figured out your snotty friend has no actual money to spend and just expects the sea to part because his hard working parents sent him to a good school.

You might be psychologically impacted by your background. Its not a style though.

ILoveYourVibes

firestarter g wrote: »

Cant be arsed to read this thread. If history repeats itself, it's full of yuppies who have no clue what it's like to grow up in a "lower class" area but I will say there is a big difference between class and classy and in my experience whatever "class" you're from does not automatically make you classy and I've known PLENTY who showed more class than the bs and stereotypes you see thrown about on here.

i pride myself on being a classless rough vulgar **** :pac:

its great fun!

anewme

Usually its middle classes wanting to be working class.

like when U2 said they were from Ballymun, not Glasnevin.

MoonUnit75

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No its not.

Believe me they know they are no longer working class. They are just proud to have COME from the working class.

Its just an economic condition. It always has been. You can have assholes that will judge you by where you came from. But believe me they will laugh the other side of their faces when the tesla dealer is waiting on you and has figured out your snotty friend has no actual money to spend and just expects the sea to part because his hard working parents sent him to a good school.

You might be psychologically impacted by your background. Its not a style though.

I think socialisation during childhood has a huge impact on people though. That’s why upper and middle class parents obsessed over manners and curtesies. It’s not because they felt using the wrong spoon or fork was immoral, it would be seen as a ‘tell’ that you were really lower/working class pretending to be upper class or mixing with upper class people because of luck rather than rearing.

Your origin was ‘baked-in’ to your behaviour and attitudes from being raised in a certain class. That’s also why working class people used to see their peers putting on ‘airs and graces’ as traitors to their origin too. Contempt for intellectual or artistic pursuits in working class people was/is as strong as contempt for tabloid/low-brow culture to the middle/upper classes.

Money doesn’t alter your origins. So rich people can still remain ‘working class’, starving artists and poets can remain middle/upper class.

ILoveYourVibes

anewme wrote: »

Usually its middle classes wanting to be working class.

like when U2 said they were from Ballymun, not Glasnevin.

glasnevin is a ghetto ....no one drives a tesla there :pac:

maninasia

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Traditionally people who rely solely on their wage for their income.

They have no inheritance or trust fund ...they have no rental income.

They received little or nothing from parents.

People who sell their skills for money.

They control very little capital at any one time. This is key. (its a huge economic disadvantage).

When people perhaps from this class start to GROW capital and have it to invest (in whatever property etc)...they leave this class.

Basically they are people who have to live paycheck to paycheck.

There is not much money left at the end of the month to build capital.

There is no source of capital other than the steady paycheck. None from family or other sources etc.


Middle class people often have no other income other than their paycheck either. They often have no inheritance or other income. But the difference is they have enough left at the end of the month to build up capital in savings etc. This will at some point BE an income source in terms of a pension etc. Working class people do not have this.

As you can see being working class leaves a person vulnerable to economic down turns. Or changes in industries. They often have had no capital to invest in education or capital to hold them over while they take the time off working to go through education. They might not have family support. Its almost always impossible for them to build up capital to make a pension. And in turn they cannot build up capital to hand over to their kids at some point. Thus its easier for their children to be working class also.

They do not own their own home. They have very few assets. Some exceptions to this in SOME economies include peasant farmers but this is not true in Ireland. Land prices are too high. You really couldn't consider farmers working class here.

So there you go ....if you strip away all the status bs ..all the stigma about where you come from ..what accent you have ..bleh bleh the stuff that doesn't matter. That is what working class is in economic terms.

No other source of income other than your paycheck. A paycheck so small you can't build capital. Very little amounts of capital none big enough to invest. Thus very little savings or investments or even none.No other assets such as home ownership or running a small business. You live pay check to pay check.

You got very little from your parents and the chances of you passing anything sizable to your kids are small.

Also they will not own any part of the work they produce so can't gain from it long term.

This definition doesn't fit Ireland well for many decades. For instance many welfare recipients have been gifted a very sizable asset, a house, by the state. Their kids are subsidised and grant aided to go to school and university if they so choose.

Wages are high and anybody can save money if they want to, especially if they have the advantage of staying with mammy and daddy. Trades people and construction workers get paid very well.

Those who turn to criminal pursuits can also earn a large income.

I think the old idea of a 'working class' is dead and buried. There's a 'hand out ' class for sure though. And that stretches up into the middle class and especially pensioners and rural areas.

anewme

maninasia wrote: »

I think the old idea of a 'working class' is dead and buried. There's a 'hand out ' class for sure though. And that stretches up into the middle class and especially pensioners and rural areas.

.
Pensioners are not handout class. People who have worked and paid their taxes for over 40 years have more than earned their pension.

ILoveYourVibes

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

I think socialisation during childhood has a huge impact on people though. That’s why upper and middle class parents obsessed over manners and curtesies. It’s not because they felt using the wrong spoon or fork was immoral, it would be seen as a ‘tell’ that you were really lower/working class pretending to be upper class or mixing with upper class people because of luck rather than rearing.

Your origin was ‘baked-in’ to your behaviour and attitudes from being raised in a certain class. That’s also why working class people used to see their peers putting on ‘airs and graces’ as traitors to their origin too. Contempt for intellectual or artistic pursuits in working class people was/is as strong as contempt for tabloid/low-brow culture to the middle/upper classes.

Upper class people are SO not obsessed over manners. They have formalities. There can be a rigid observance of convention attached to institutions. Like rugby clubs or other posh places. Ceremonial etc. They are very conventional that way. But not manners. They can actually be either charmingly natural or brutally rude and self entitled depending on their nature. I have met both. The former are usually just sweet by nature the latter are spoiled and totally raised in a bubble of comfort. But the upper class are obsessed with the customs or regulations of the places around them. Manners towards people can be lacking or informal. But gentleman's clubs in victorian london had a code of civility.

Middle class people however are obsessed with manners. Its almost a substitute for real intimacy. They are instruments of making distance to me though. Yet sometimes i like the distance. Formalities though ..are usually viewed with disdain. There is a respect of people's time you don't find at all in the upper class. No one will waste your time more annoyingly than the upper class.

Everyone aims to adopt the etiquette of their betters.

Poverty in the past ....didn't afford people the luxury of hygiene manners. Public hygiene manners etc.

However it does now.

I don't really think there is that much difference between working class manners and middle class manners tbh.

I am middle class by the way.:)

dartboardio

Yes I would consider working class to be families who are hard workers, work for a living but are one or two paychecks away from going into serious debt etc.

All my family went to college and have decent paying jobs , can afford holidays etc and regular trips away but would still be one or two paychecks away from being broke.

Rodin

Candie wrote: »

Insecure accommodation and no power over the course of your life sounds like a pretty hopeless and miserable situation for me. I don't think many people would consider a family being trapped in a hotel room a great lifestyle.

I hadn't realised it was a 5 year stretch in the joy.
Take some ownership of your life and stop expecting the state to look after you.

Rodin

anewme wrote: »

.
Pensioners are not handout class. People who have worked and paid their taxes for over 40 years have more than earned their pension.

What about those who didnt work or moved here from England to retire because house prices in Roscommon were cheap?
Or moved from Ireland to work in England and have come back "home" to see out their days. Never paid a penny in tax here.

Should all these get a state pension and access to all state benefits?

Not every old person in Ireland has "worked all their life and paid taxes".

anewme

Rodin wrote: »

What about those who didnt work or moved here from England to retire because house prices in Roscommon were cheap?
Or moved from Ireland to work in England and have come back "home" to see out their days. Never paid a penny in tax here.

Should all these get a state pension and access to all state benefits?

Not every old person in Ireland has "worked all their life and paid taxes".

But many more have than not have and should be respected.

dartboardio

Rodin wrote: »

I hadn't realised it was a 5 year stretch in the joy.
Take some ownership of your life and stop expecting the state to look after you.

Very true . While obviously being in a hotel room with children and no home to go to would be horrible, unfortunately a lot (if not most) of these young single women with 2/3 kids are almost in the hotel room because they would rather wait 8 years on a housing list for a free house, instead of getting out and busting their bollocks working to pay for a house/apartment for them and their children, like the rest of the country have to do.

I've seen it! Perfectly able bodied single mother/father saying ' Poor me, I'm on the housing list 10 years and still no sign of a 3 bed house!!'

Yet they refuse to get out, work/save/pay rent like the rest. (and yes i know the rent is crazy but how do other people do it?... they educate themselves/move up the ladder, work their arse off)...

Rodin

anewme wrote: »

But many more have than not have and should be respected.

Should we receive according to what we paid in?
I'd be all for that...

Id have nobody from outwith the country moving in and claiming a state pension.

ILoveYourVibes

maninasia wrote: »

This definition doesn't fit Ireland well for many decades. For instance many welfare recipients have been gifted a very sizable asset, a house, by the state. Their kids are subsidised and grant aided to go to school and university if they so choose.

It fits Ireland very well if not perfectly. No one is gifted a house by the state. I don't know where you got that idea from. People may apply to buy a council house they have lived in. But they still must buy it.

I think you are confusing the underclass (those who rely solely on welfare) and the working class who are subsidized by welfare. Everyone is subsidized to go to uni here even the upper class.

Wages are high and anybody can save money if they want to, especially if they have the advantage of staying with mammy and daddy. Trades people and construction workers get paid very well.

Wages are not high. Very few people can afford down payment on a house without parental help. Most people don't have the advantage of mummy or daddy. That is the point. If they did that would be different. Some trades people and construction workers DO get paid very well and would be now considered UPPER class.

Those who turn to criminal pursuits can also earn a large income.

Its a very small group of people. I don't count them or the black economy. It would be in the billions for fraud though.

I think the old idea of a 'working class' is dead and buried. There's a 'hand out ' class for sure though. And that stretches up into the middle class and especially pensioners and rural areas.

I know rich people who get a lot of handouts. Its not a class thing.


Sadly people rely on discerning the classes by the old stereotypes they have been taught and not economics and not reality.

Its odd to me.

And no the working class is very alive in modern Ireland.

Rodin

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It fits Ireland very well if not perfectly. No one is gifted a house by the state. I don't know where you got that idea from. People may apply to buy a council house they have lived in. But they still must buy it.

I think you are confusing the underclass (those who rely solely on welfare) and the working class who are subsidized by welfare. Everyone is subsidized to go to uni here even the upper class.




Wages are not high. Very few people can afford down payment on a house without parental help. Most people don't have the advantage of mummy or daddy. That is the point. If they did that would be different. Some trades people and construction workers DO get paid very well and would be now considered UPPER class.



Its a very small group of people. I don't count them or the black economy. It would be in the billions for fraud though.



I know rich people who get a lot of handouts. Its not a class thing.


Sadly people rely on discerning the classes by the old stereotypes they have been taught and not economics and not reality.

Its odd to me.

And no the working class is very alive in modern Ireland.

Wages in Ireland ARE high.
But so is the cost of everything.

Lyan

It's what old man Neetzy referred to as resentment.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Rodin wrote: »

What about those who didnt work or moved here from England to retire because house prices in Roscommon were cheap?
Or moved from Ireland to work in England and have come back "home" to see out their days. Never paid a penny in tax here.

Should all these get a state pension and access to all state benefits?

Not every old person in Ireland has "worked all their life and paid taxes".

Ireland maintains social security agreements with other countries to cover this kind of situation. If an emigrant has worked and paid social insurance in England but retires in Ireland, he can use his contributions to qualify for retirement benefits in Ireland. The same would apply to the reverse scenario.

ILoveYourVibes

Rodin wrote: »

Wages in Ireland ARE high.
But so is the cost of everything.

What in your mind are high wages?

Wages in Ireland are low precisely because the cost of everything is high. :rolleyes:

We have a low wage economy.

dartboardio

Yes wages in Ireland are high, 2nd or 3rd highest in Europe...

Of course the living costs balance it out, but still.

Rodin

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

What in your mind are high wages?

Wages in Ireland are low precisely because the cost of everything is high. :rolleyes:

We have a low wage economy.

Ever been to Spain?

anewme

Rodin wrote: »

Should we receive according to what we paid in?
I'd be all for that...

Id have nobody from outwith the country moving in and claiming a state pension.

Well I'd be well qualified after 30 years paying in.

ILoveYourVibes

Rodin wrote: »

Ever been to Spain?

Yes I lived there for a bit. But that was as a child. Its been some time now.

But house prices are low in Spain.

The Irish economy is broken. It doesn't affect me so much as others. But i see it.

Rodin

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes I lived there for a bit. But that was as a child. Its been some time now.

But house prices are low in Spain.

The Irish economy is broken. It doesn't affect me so much as others. But i see it.

Spain is a low wage, low cost economy.
Ireland is a high wage, high cost economy.

Cupatae

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

I'd class working class as having little to no disposable income after paying bills, at least for an up to date view anyways. I guess it would once have strictly been labours, factory workers etc but frankly the way economies are now a third level degree doesn't guarantee a middle class life like it used to

I know tradesmen pulling in at least 50% more a week than some "professional" types

I don't like this craic of classing welfare for life types as working class as seems to be imported from the UK. Maybe it's just from days when low income and welfare leaches would be hosted together in council estates and so the stereotype of "working class" areas being wasters doing nothing but drinking and smoking comes from I don't know

But I'd rather it be labeled as welfare class if we are going to put some sort of PC term to the no interest in working ever types

I actually feel bad for genuine people on welfare, getting drilled and labelled constantly as scum leaches, bottom feeders looking for a free ride ect, imagine the depression of going into a post office and knowing everyone that sees you thinks your a low life leach.

As a society now we are ridiculously judgmental, its no wonder suicides are a constant thing now a days. People are ruthless especially those with any bit of success (especially those that had a soft life and had there **hard earned** success handed too them, cars paid, college paid, 0 struggle except complain about the hard work of college) and these types of people then think themselves as working class, as if they ve earned and clawed there way to the top, when in reality compared to the rest of the world they literally had a free ride or as close as you could get to one.

ILoveYourVibes

firestarter g wrote: »

From what I've seen from the people who post here theyre mainly yuppies, mamas boys who have no real clue what it is to live in the real world. I mean who the **** are the main "characters" on here? The mysterious wibbs? Candie the rich English girl?? Well you know wha I'm not listening to the patronizing **** any longer. I'm an Irish working class beeeee-atch and good luck to any **** that messes with me on here ��

Never pick a fight with yuppie. I will drag your balls up and down your ghetto roughly tarmacked street until you can't sit to joy ride anymore! :mad:

ITS ON!

ILoveYourVibes

Rodin wrote: »

Spain is a low wage, low cost economy.
Ireland is a high wage, high cost economy.

Potato..potato

It doesn't work in print.

Rodin

Cupatae wrote: »

I actually feel bad for genuine people on welfare, getting drilled and labelled constantly as scum leaches, bottom feeders looking for a free ride ect, imagine the depression of going into a post office and knowing everyone that sees you thinks your a low life leach.

As a society now we are ridiculously judgmental, its no wonder suicides are a constant thing now a days. People are ruthless especially those with any bit of success (especially those that had a soft life and had there **hard earned** success handed too them, cars paid, college paid, 0 struggle except complain about the hard work of college) and these types of people then think themselves as working class, as if they ve earned and clawed there way to the top, when in reality compared to the rest of the world they literally had a free ride or as close as you could get to one.

Suicide rates are going down.

anewme

Yuppie should be consigned to the 80's, where it came from.

Rodin

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Potato..potato

It doesn't work in print.

The difference between an absolute statement and a relative one is important.