Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-05-2019 8:17am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That is a disgraceful attitude, frankly. This idea that the US has promulgated this uprising, as opposed to the desperate Venezuelans trying to oust a tyrant is, to use the phrase of your side, risible.

The US is clearly supporting a coup. And the use of Tyrant and regime by your side is fairly typical of imperialist apologists - the King/Dictator of Saudi is never so described.

Maduro was elected, of course the US cried foul, it always does when an election in a country goes against the empire and if formenting a coup doesnt work, military action is threatened or enacted.

https://www.vox.com/world/2019/5/1/18525806/venezuela-pompeo-military-guaido-maduro-trump

AbusesToilets · 02-05-2019 8:24am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The US is clearly supporting a coup. And the use of Tyrant and regime by your side is fairly typical of imperialist apologists - the King/Dictator of Saudi is never so described.

Maduro was elected, of course the US cried foul, it always does when an election in a country goes against the empire and if formenting a coup doesnt work, military action is threatened or enacted.

https://www.vox.com/world/2019/5/1/18525806/venezuela-pompeo-military-guaido-maduro-trump

Thankfully there's a easily digested article, from the paper of record, showing just how disingenuous your argument is. Maduro's has continued the terrible policies of Chavez, gutting the legislature, destroying the economy and leaving the people in starvation conditions.

Tell me again how the US are responsible for all that. Are they controlling both sides in your scenario?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-05-2019 8:31am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Thankfully there's a easily digested article, from the paper of record, showing just how disingenuous your argument is. Maduro's has continued the terrible policies of Chavez, gutting the legislature, destroying the economy and leaving the people in starvation conditions.

Tell me again how the US are responsible for all that. Are they controlling both sides in your scenario?

Are you able to engage in any sort of comprehension at all? I haven’t blamed the US for the economic situation in Venezuela. My response to your article was so what.

There are plenty of poor and badly run countries in the world, there are plenty of imperfect democracies, and dozens of dictatorships. The US is friendly with many of these, including the crucifying Tryant of the Saudi regime.

The US threatens invasions and organises coups when the interests of the Empire are thwarted by sovereign nations.

AbusesToilets · 02-05-2019 8:36am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Are you able to engage in any sort of comprehension at all? I haven’t blamed the US for the economic situation in Venezuela. My response to your article was so what.

There are plenty of poor and badly run countries in the world, there are plenty of imperfect democracies, and dozens of dictatorships. The US is friendly with many of these, including the crucifying Tryant of the Saudi regime.

The US threatens invasions and organises coups when the interests of the Empire are thwarted by sovereign nations.

Your claim that the situation in Venezuelan, i.e. the attempted coup, has been caused by the US, is a load of crap. Maduro is a dictator, Venezuelans are starving and have had enough of his tyranny.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-05-2019 8:50am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Your claim that the situation in Venezuelan, i.e. the attempted coup, has been caused by the US, is a load of crap.

I said the US is supporting a coup. You may want to look up the difference between supporting and causing. The CIA is probably helping the coup plotters but so far I didn’t say there was proof of that.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/30/venezuela-coup-trump-1293235

President Donald Trump and his top aides on Tuesday swiftly endorsed an attempted government takeover in Venezuela, where opposition leaders backed by a band of rebellious soldiers are trying to oust strongman Nicolás Maduro.

Maduro is a dictator, Venezuelans are starving and have had enough of his tyranny.

Even if this were true it is not the business of the US to invade or threaten to invade or engage at all. There are poorer countries many of them allies of the US, there are imperfect democracies many of them allies of the US, and there are dictatorships that are allies of the US. The US is fine with these systems unless the countries involved are inimical to the Empire’s interests and then they attempt to overthrow any sovereign state that harms said interests.

All empires have done this, to be fair, but most with far less hypocrisy. That is, they called themselves empires.

TheAsYLuMkeY · 02-05-2019 9:21am

SNIP. Do not use this forum to shill for websites please.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-05-2019 10:42am

blackwhite wrote: »

The people of Venezuela had never heard of the President of their National Assembly?

You should really do the barest of fact checks on the rubbish you blindly repost before repeating it on here.

A ceremonial post it seems. Reuter here describes him as obscure.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-guaido-newsmaker/in-a-month-venezuelas-guaido-emerged-from-obscurity-to-challenge-maduro-idUSKCN1PI05S

I take it then that he was obscure.

Amazing how it’s posters who cheerleaded for the annexation of Crimea who are now supporting rigged elections in another state. Transparent as hell

Amazing how many strawman arguments you make.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2019 10:52am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

So what?

No more of this please.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2019 11:02am

Do not question mod warnings on thread please. Post deleted.

Cheerful Spring · 02-05-2019 12:49pm

blackwhite wrote: »

That’s not what you claimed in your original post. It’s there for everyone to see. But please keep exposing your own lies - exposes your for exactly what your agenda is here.

I’ll quote your original post again in case you’re struggling to keep track of your false claims?
I guess we can take your strawmanning as an admission that the below is utter lies. We know by now that it’s far too much to expect young to ever produce evidence to support such claims :rolleyes:

Take a look at Guaido Wikipedia page and you even seen on there they too claim Guaido was a relevently unknown figure before 2019. I have no agenda i just support the facts. Some people believe clown politics is the truth. You falling for lies that John Bolton tries to pass off as truth. If these are the kind of people you trust to convey truth about Venezula all hope is lost.

To win a election as President you need support in the city and countryside and i have seen Guaido appear in poor neighbourhoods and they forced him to flee and leave the area. It obvious Guaido base support is not as big as the neocons in Washington claim.

Now they are trying to claim Guaido did not try to overrthrown Maduro in a coup on Monday. Rubbish all signs show the US got assurances from Maduro inner circle they would switch sides and its reason the coup went ahead on Monday. But it now seems Maduro inner circle played a ruse and pretended they were going to go along with the coup. It was well played by Maduro and they made Guaido look like a fool. Bolton even started naming the inner circle by name not realising it was a tactic from the beginning to force Guaido to react.

Dohnjoe · 02-05-2019 1:45pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I have no agenda i just support the facts.

Nice try. You are openly and unashamedly a Holocaust denier and hold all sorts of very extreme political and world views that you have no qualms about sharing

Now they are trying to claim Guaido did not try to overrthrown Maduro in a coup on Monday. Rubbish all signs show the US got assurances from Maduro inner circle they would switch sides and its reason the coup went ahead on Monday. But it now seems Maduro inner circle played a ruse and pretended they were going to go along with the coup. It was well played by Maduro and they made Guaido look like a fool. Bolton even started naming the inner circle by name not realising it was a tactic from the beginning to force Guaido to react.

Venezuela is literally floating on a sea of oil, but Maduro has systematically driven it into the ground with economic mismanagement, carrying on in almost identical fashion from his predecessor Chavez. Blaming convenient foreign boogeymen for domestic failings is a key part of that policy. Attacking any opposition as being under "foreign control" is from precisely the same playbook while Maduro cements himself further and further as a dictator.

No matter how deliberately fractured they've been, opposition politicians are literally the only hope, yet here they are, being vilified and presented as enemies to the Venezuelan people. Ridiculous stuff.

Irish Praetorian · 02-05-2019 2:09pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Nice try. You are openly and unashamedly a Holocaust denier and hold all sorts of very extreme political and world views that you have no qualms about sharing.

I'm sorry, this seems like a pretty serious accusation, could I trouble you for some evidence to support that?

Cheerful Spring · 02-05-2019 2:22pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm sorry, this seems like a pretty serious accusation, could I trouble you for some evidence to support that?

I deny the 6 milliion Jews died during WW2. I believe the holocust happened my figure is around 4 million, but questioning history is something Dohnjoe has problem with. Dohnjoe accepts the official narrative about every world event.

Cheerful Spring · 02-05-2019 2:37pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Nice try. You are openly and unashamedly a Holocaust denier and hold all sorts of very extreme political and world views that you have no qualms about sharing

Venezuela is literally floating on a sea of oil, but Maduro has systematically driven it into the ground with economic mismanagement, carrying on in almost identical fashion from his predecessor Chavez. Blaming convenient foreign boogeymen for domestic failings is a key part of that policy. Attacking any opposition as being under "foreign control" is from precisely the same playbook while Maduro cements himself further and further as a dictator.

No matter how deliberately fractured they've been, opposition politicians are literally the only hope, yet here they are, being vilified and presented as enemies to the Venezuelan people. Ridiculous stuff.

Lets ignore facts on the ground. Floating in oil exactly the reason why the United States is keen to outst Maduro. Also a Russian and Cuban ally, and they are a socialist country- three reasons they hate them.

Bolton, Pompeo and Trump are totally silent about the coup on Monday? What world do you live when you claiming there no outside interference happening. Guaido wife showed up at the White House for talks with Trump. United States is actively trying to destroy Venezulea economy since Chavez came to power and your opinion is all this because of poor management of the economy is nonsense. You have learned nothing and doubt you even marched in Iraq war protest like you claim, your posts are always on side of neoncons and their war plans.

Irish Praetorian · 02-05-2019 2:40pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I deny the 6 milliion Jews died during WW2. I believe the holocust happened my figure is around 4 million, but questioning history is something Dohnjoe has problem with. Dohnjoe accepts the official narrative about every world event.

Well colour me bemused - I suspect we shall have to find another thread to continue this on at some point. Though you can imagine my suspicion when people wade into debates that professional historians tend to have enough trouble waging.

blackwhite · 02-05-2019 2:42pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Lets ignore facts on the ground.

That does seem to be the cornerstone of most of your posts here alright.

Have you any evidence whatsoever to back up your claims that this was orchestrated by the US - other than Maduro's unsubstantiated claims where he points the finger at the big bad outsiders?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Also a Russian and Cuban ally

Which explains exactly why you mindlessly repeat whatever ridiculous claims Maduro will make as blind fact.

It's funny how you never have had any concerns about Russia annexing the territory of its neighbours - in fact you've been cheerleading for them whenever they've engaged in unprovoked invasions.

Eric Cartman · 02-05-2019 2:43pm

whatever about oil, the US always has and always will respond when threats of anti-US leadership on the continental americas present. So do russia for their surrounding nations, so do the chinese etc... Its absolutely no mystery why the US interferes in south america more than other places.

Maduro is still starving his people and running the country into the ground, I fully support any anti communist coup.

Cheerful Spring · 02-05-2019 2:47pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well colour me bemused - I suspect we shall have to find another thread to continue this on at some point. Though you can imagine my suspicion when people wade into debates that professional historians tend to have enough trouble waging.

We have discussed this far too much on After hours and conspiracy sites, it too hot a topic so i can't be bothered anymore. For Dohnjoe and people like him they don't like when you discuss history and dispute some of the information. I done some research about the Holocust and even a recognised holocust researcher had an opinion the 6 million figure was too high. I don't want to debate this subject anymore because it brings out the anger in people if you talk about it.

James Brown · 02-05-2019 2:48pm

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who openly ignore the facts and bang the anti American drums while supporting other countries aggressions ,

We could all post generalisations that suit our view without any back up.

Sadly there are often people who turn a blind eye to US interference despite the facts and the bloody consequences on the populace of these countries....see how that works?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That is a disgraceful attitude, frankly. This idea that the US has promulgated this uprising, as opposed to the desperate Venezuelans trying to oust a tyrant is, to use the phrase of your side, risible.

I would say it's quite possible many Venezuelans might wish to oust Maduro, however the US/Trump certainly did support and encourage this 'uprising' and did make military threats. You dismissing these facts is risible.

Irish Praetorian · 02-05-2019 2:56pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

We have discussed this far too much on After hours and conspiracy sites, it too hot a topic so i can't be bothered anymore. For Dohnjoe and people like him they don't like when you discuss history and dispute some of the information. I done some research about the Holocust and even a recognised holocust researcher had an opinion the 6 million figure was too high. I don't want to debate this subject anymore because it brings out the anger in people if you talk about it.

Very well, although I might trouble you to PM me the name of that researcher, for my own edification if nothing else. Given the facts I would struggle to label your position as 'denialism' though some might regard it as diminishing - still its not unusual for historical debates to rage about the facts many centuries and millenia after the fact. I believe the current accepted figure in mainstream academia ranges from 5.4 to 6.2 million so 4 or 4 something wouldn't be THAT far off. In any case it is off topic so if the rest of you can indulge my love of tangents we might return to the topic at hand.

Cheerful Spring · 02-05-2019 2:59pm

blackwhite wrote: »

That does seem to be the cornerstone of most of your posts here alright.

Have you any evidence whatsoever to back up your claims that this was orchestrated by the US - other than Maduro's unsubstantiated claims where he points the finger at the big bad outsiders?

Which explains exactly why you mindlessly repeat whatever ridiculous claims Maduro will make as blind fact.

It's funny how you never have had any concerns about Russia annexing the territory of its neighbours - in fact you've been cheerleading for them whenever they've engaged in unprovoked invasions.

Are you not watching the events.

US threatened to invade if Guaido is arrested or killed. Is this not evidence of interference in another countries affairs? Guaido even declared himself president and nobody inside the country voted for him. Do you believe in democracy? Maduro won a narrow election over his rival and analysts back then said the election was not rigged. Maduro is the President, not Guaido. You can call for new elections, but demanding change by force is a coup.

Maduro has even allowed the protests to continue for Months and has not done anything. How bad is he really when he allowing the opposition to voice an opinion. Now they tried to carry out military coup against him. Bolton let it slip they were in contact with Maduro Defence minister and other cabinet ministers to switch sides they had got assurances. They were managing the coup with Guaido. Guaido went ahead thinking Maduro cabinet ministers had flipped when they had not, they played a ruse and exposed how little support Guaido has militarily and by the public.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2019 3:08pm

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I deny the 6 milliion Jews died during WW2. I believe the holocust happened my figure is around 4 million, but questioning history is something Dohnjoe has problem with. Dohnjoe accepts the official narrative about every world event.

Banned for being uncivil. Anything even remotely resembling holocaust denial in future will warrant a sizeable ban. Everyone else, please try to be civil and use the report function if you have a problem.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-05-2019 3:10pm

Most of the arguments supporting the imperialism are of the whataboutary and ad hominem type, or seem to be arguing that if Venezuela is poor or has a kind of economic or political system that the US (or the US supporting poster) doesn’t like that this legitimises invasion, or interference in a sovereign country. There is no such provision to my knowledge under international law. I am open to correction.

Other posters seem to think that the US sanctions are no part of the reason for the economic collapse but that would make sanctions useless. They clearly have had some effect and are designed to have that effect.

Nevertheless the responsibility for the economic crisis isn’t pertinent to whether the US would have a right to control countries in its orbit, in fact it has no such right.

Eric Cartman · 02-05-2019 3:48pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Most of the arguments supporting the imperialism are of the whataboutary and ad hominem type, or seem to be arguing that if Venezuela is poor or has a kind of economic or political system that the US (or the US supporting poster) doesn’t like that this legitimises invasion, or interference in a sovereign country. There is no such provision to my knowledge under international law. I am open to correction.

Other posters seem to think that the US sanctions are no part of the reason for the economic collapse but that would make sanctions useless. They clearly have had some effect and are designed to have that effect.

Nevertheless the responsibility for the economic crisis isn’t pertinent to whether the US would have a right to control countries in its orbit, in fact it has no such right.

The US does however have a right not to trade with hostile foreign countries, and those countries have a political responsibility to their people to act in a manor that allows trade with the countries important to them.

Saying that the US shouldnt have sanctioned them is like saying that you should be forced to shop somewhere that you know has a political or moral stance that you find abhorrent or treats their staff in a way you find vile, but you should still have to shop there.

eire4 · 02-05-2019 3:55pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-venezuela-in-crisis-democracy-is-the-escape-route-1.3877689?mode=amp

Timely piece from the Times this morning, giving a nice overview of how Venezuela found itself in the desperate state it's in. Hint : the US had little to do with it.

As I have said before this is not about the Americans being the root cause of where Venezuela is at today but it is about the Americans using the problems in Venezuela for their own ends. They are not an honest broker here. They want to install a US puppet who will do as he is told and thus be able to exploit the country economically which is what the Americans have along history of doing in Latin America. Classic American disaster capitalism.

ilkhanid · 07-07-2019 11:22pm

SNIP. Do not dump links here please.

Another American backed coup happening in Venezuela

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