RWC 2019 Ireland v Japan Match Thread: Group A - Sat 28th Sep 08:15 Shizuoka

NeonWolf · 28-09-2019 3:30pm

I had a horn on me a cat wouldn’t scratch when that final whistle blew . “Hello Emporer, where are your clothes?”

snotboogie · 28-09-2019 3:35pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Kidney RWC record very much the same as anyone else's

Ireland win over Australia is by far our biggest scalp in RWC history.

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2019 3:39pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Ireland win over Australia is by far our biggest scalp in RWC history.

So Kidney's record is better because of one win?

If Ireland make a semi-final then, Schmidt's will have been better?

snotboogie · 28-09-2019 3:41pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So Kidney's record is better because of one win?

If Ireland make a semi-final then, Schmidt's will have been better?

Kidneys RWC record (4-1) is objectively better than Schmidts (5-2).

awec · 28-09-2019 3:44pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Earls releases, player lets ball go, Earls gets up and comes through and plays the loose ball. Not seeing much wrong there tbh.

Personally I'd have given a penalty against Earls at the end for not releasing.

MadYaker · 28-09-2019 3:44pm

His overall record is much better

Weepsie · 28-09-2019 3:46pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Kidney has a better RWC record for sure, this loss cements that. Schmidt has the best six nations record but he has benefited massively from the total capitulation of French rugby

You can easily reframe that as France capitalised on Ireland's still largely amateur approach to the game prior to 10 years ago though.

irishbucsfan · 28-09-2019 3:47pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Kidneys RWC record (4-1) is objectively better than Schmidts (5-2).

Yes. I'm saying that if Schmidt's team wins a quarter final, his record is obviously better. The competition isn't over yet, there's still a lot out there for this team to achieve.

mfceiling · 28-09-2019 3:48pm

blinding wrote: »

His body shape/ fitness is not at the level of other top tier International Second Rows .

I have read some ridiculous posts on boards over the years. This is possibly the stupidest post I have ever read on any thread.

Iain Henderson the 50 times capped Irish and Lion's 2nd row has a body shape that is not at the level of other top tier international second rows.

Just let that sink in for a minute. The 6ft 6 118kg Irish and Lion's second row has a body shape that is not comparable to other international second rows.

FrancieBrady · 28-09-2019 3:50pm

awec wrote: »

Personally I'd have given a penalty against Earls at the end for not releasing.

It could be given, no doubt, but his hands release and his momentum takes him back to his feet. On a day that we came off worst with decisions, I'll take that.

blinding · 28-09-2019 3:52pm

mfceiling wrote: »

I have read some ridiculous posts on boards over the years. This is possibly the stupidest post I have ever read on any thread.

Iain Henderson the 50 times capped Irish and Lion's 2nd row has a body shape that is not at the level of other top tier international second rows.

Just let that sink in for a minute. The 6ft 6 118kg Irish and Lion's second row has a body shape that is not comparable to other international second rows.

He certainly cannot last 80 minutes against good teams or possibly even middle tier teams . His fitness over 80 minutes is not at the level of his peers .

prawnsambo · 28-09-2019 4:02pm

blinding wrote: »

He certainly cannot last 80 minutes against good teams or possibly even middle tier teams . His fitness over 80 minutes is not at the level of his peers .

Are you suggesting we take off James Ryan instead of Henderson when there's a second row sub sitting on the bench? Or just leave the sub there?

blinding · 28-09-2019 4:05pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Are you suggesting we take off James Ryan instead of Henderson when there's a second row sub sitting on the bench? Or just leave the sub there?

I am saying its a pity we don’t have more fit and therefore better player than Henderson . Henderson injuries have greatly reduced his abilities .

Rockbeast2 · 28-09-2019 4:08pm

England, "possibly", aside, there is not a 23 in World Rugby that would not include Iain.

prawnsambo · 28-09-2019 4:10pm

blinding wrote: »

I am saying its a pity we don’t have more fit and therefore better player than Henderson . Henderson injuries have greatly reduced his abilities .

What are you basing this on? That he is subbed or just a subjective opinion?

blinding · 28-09-2019 4:11pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

England, "possibly", aside, there is not a 23 in World Rugby that would not include Iain.

I doubt that .

blinding · 28-09-2019 4:12pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

What are you basing this on? That he is subbed or just a subjective opinion?

Fortunately . I am entitled to my opinion .

prawnsambo · 28-09-2019 4:14pm

blinding wrote: »

Fortunately . I am entitled to my opinion .

As are we all. I am also entitled to ask if there's anything backing up your opinion. You don't have to answer of course.

Rockbeast2 · 28-09-2019 4:17pm

So, he wouldn't make the bench(at least)for

Scotland
Wales
France
Australia
Argentina

?

South Africa and New Zealand are up for debate, but I opine YES!

Dravokivich · 28-09-2019 4:27pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Ireland win over Australia is by far our biggest scalp in RWC history.

My recollection was we won that by abusing the hole off james o'connor.

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:31pm

Probably been said already but carbury was god awful when he came on. Hospital passes too standing men, the penalty out of hand that shoukd have gone deep into the 22 but barely hit the 10m line and kicking it out at the end was basically throwing in the towel
Also the lack of criticism by the rte panel shows rugby is an old boys club. Happy to pat each other on the back while playing in the irfu's protected system. Doesn't help when the chips are down at the world cup.
Also i didnt see any leaders on the pitch today. Think of o connells manic agression, woody, o driscoll...I'm not talking skill, i'm talking pumping up the troops during battle.

Dravokivich · 28-09-2019 4:34pm

simongurnick wrote: »

Probably been said already but carbury was god awful when he came on. Hospital passes too standing men, the penalty out of hand that shoukd have gone deep into the 22 but barely hit the 10m line and kicking it out at the end was basically throwing in the towel
Also the lack of criticism by the rte panel shows rugby is an old boys club. Happy to pat each other on the back while playing in the irfu's protected system. Doesn't help when the chips are down at the world cup.
Also i didnt see any leaders on the pitch today. Think of o connells manic agression, woody, o driscoll...I'm not talking skill, i'm talking pumping up the troops during battle.

Cant say that's all on carbery, the other players were in position for those passes and the pods around them. It was a bad play that they should have scrapped after doing it the first time.

Rockbeast2 · 28-09-2019 4:35pm

^ It was a contentious decision to kick ball out t end, but I reckon the guaranteed point will be invaluable at end of group stage.

The right thing to do IMO.

Heres Johnny · 28-09-2019 4:35pm

I googled my own question, Joe's record is currently a 72% win rate, Declan Kidneys was just over 50% and Eddie O Sullivan was 64%.
So I suppose his record is good.
It's hard to decide which is better, the Australia WC win in 2011 or the new Zealand victories Joe has overseen so I just looked for their overall ratios.

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:37pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

^ It was a contentious decision to kick ball out t end, but I reckon the guaranteed point will be invaluable at end of group stage.

The right thing to do IMO.

I'm not sure he was even thinking about that. I think he just bottled it in the moment.

blinding · 28-09-2019 4:38pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

As are we all. I am also entitled to ask if there's anything backing up your opinion. You don't have to answer of course.

His fitness or lack there of and him not having the ability he could have because of his lack of fitness .

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:40pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Cant say that's all on carbery, the other players were in position for those passes and the pods around them. It was a bad play that they should have scrapped after doing it the first time.

He is the out half though. He controls the game. And had other options such as a skip pass or a grubber kick through the gain line. No invention, creativity or ability to mix up the approach on the moment.

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:40pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Cant say that's all on carbery, the other players were in position for those passes and the pods around them. It was a bad play that they should have scrapped after doing it the first time.

He is the out half though. He controls the game. And had other options such as a skip pass or a grubber kick through the gain line. No invention, creativity or ability to mix up the approach on the moment.

Rockbeast2 · 28-09-2019 4:41pm

* I'm not sure how you can bottle an in-goal area clearance on 80 mins to secure a bonus point when you've been under the cosh for previous 40 minutes.

prawnsambo · 28-09-2019 4:43pm

blinding wrote: »

His fitness or lack there of and him not having the ability he could have because of his lack of fitness .

Again, based on what?

Dravokivich · 28-09-2019 4:43pm

simongurnick wrote: »

He is the out half though. He controls the game. And had other options such as a skip pass or a grubber kick through the gain line. No invention, creativity or ability to mix up the approach on the moment.

He did what he was clearly told to do. It wasnt just him doing it, 5/6 players needed to be involved in those passes including Murray.

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:45pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

* I'm not sure how you can bottle an in-goal area clearance on 80 mins to secure a bonus point when you've been under the cosh for previous 40 minutes.

He panicked and kicked it out. A few minutes previous the japanese winger broke out from his own line and made 30 yards. We couldnt try anything similar?

Always_Running · 28-09-2019 4:45pm

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:45pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

* I'm not sure how you can bottle an in-goal area clearance on 80 mins to secure a bonus point when you've been under the cosh for previous 40 minutes.

He panicked and kicked it out. A few minutes previous the japanese winger broke out from his own line and made 30 yards. We couldnt try anything similar?

reg114 · 28-09-2019 4:45pm

I can see the japanese beating scotland and finishing top of the group. Ireland will be lucky to get second and it'll be curtains if we have to take on the All blacks. 4 losses by Ireland this year is ludicrous, almost as ludicrous as the rankings which had ireland number 1 in the world recently. Japan wanted the win more and played with swagger, pass, power, intensity. Have to say im so tired of irelands dull up the jumper style of play. Wwe looked so pedestrian compared to the exciting japanese who played exactly like this 4 years ago when they beat the boks. Why Ireland teams fail to adopt the offload and let the ball do the work rather than constantly going into contact is beyond me, because it no longer works, the fact that Joe doesnt see that means his decision to step down is timely. My concern now is whether Ireland under Andy farrell will be any different ?

Tommybojangles · 28-09-2019 4:46pm

My 2 cents I was screaming at Carbury to kick it out at the end. IMO trying to play on would have been the real "bottle job" I.e throwing away a result that made things salvageable.

As someone said above the silver lining in days like these is that lads who belong on the ignore list expose themselves. This WC and to a large extent Schmidts tenure (fairly or unfairly) will be judged on a one off game in the quarters

Rockbeast2 · 28-09-2019 4:49pm

"A few minutes previous the japanese winger broke out.."

That's the exact reason you don't throw it around in your own in-goal area on 80 mins.

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:49pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

He did what he was clearly told to do. It wasnt just him doing it, 5/6 players needed to be involved in those passes including Murray.

Fair point but goes back to my other point of not having any leadere out there. These guys are supposed to be elite athletes, ranked 1 in the world not mindless sheep. But yes, i would also heavily criticize the coaching team

prawnsambo · 28-09-2019 4:50pm

simongurnick wrote: »

He is the out half though. He controls the game. And had other options such as a skip pass or a grubber kick through the gain line. No invention, creativity or ability to mix up the approach on the moment.

The problem was that ruck ball was always under pressure and you can't go wide without pulling defenders into the ruck and giving you the space out wide. We were just losing the collisions that we'd normally win. And then slow ball compounded that. He had one long pass picked off and nearly conceded a try from it. Kicking the ball away is always a dangerous ploy; 50/50 at best. Imo, the game was lost in the first half through stupid penalties and an even stupider decision to crossfield kick a penalty instead of going to the corner or taking the points. The heat and humidity were always going to hurt us, so the objective must have been to build a good lead in the first half and we failed to do that.

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:51pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

"A few minutes previous the japanese winger broke out.."

That's the exact reason you don't throw it around in your own in-goal area on 80 mins.

I disagree. It shows what throwing caution to the wind does. The fact we lost the match proves my point. We had to take a risk. Hanging on to a losing bonus point against japan is an embarrassment

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:52pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

"A few minutes previous the japanese winger broke out.."

That's the exact reason you don't throw it around in your own in-goal area on 80 mins.

I disagree. It shows what throwing caution to the wind does. The fact we lost the match proves my point. We had to take a risk. Hanging on to a losing bonus point against japan is an embarrassment

blinding · 28-09-2019 4:52pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Again, based on what?

His injury record and the affect it has on his fitness now and on his ability now .

Weepsie · 28-09-2019 4:54pm

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I googled my own question, Joe's record is currently a 72% win rate, Declan Kidneys was just over 50% and Eddie O Sullivan was 64%.
So I suppose his record is good.
It's hard to decide which is better, the Australia WC win in 2011 or the new Zealand victories Joe has overseen so I just looked for their overall ratios.

2 wins over All Blacks, A grand slam, getting to No. 1 and a couple other 6 nations kind of tell it's own story.

This has been a poor year no doubt, but time yet to salvage something.

Keep injuries at bay, suspensions too and getting through are all that matter now. Then reset, and should be better acclimatised.

If it's NZ in the QF hopefully Italy give them a tough match before hand. If it's SA, they'll have have had to work to guarantee but will have had nearly 2 weeks off before their QF fixture.

Rockbeast2 · 28-09-2019 4:55pm

Not IMO, Simon. Sorry :-)

Take the beating and get the [possibly vital] bonus point.

We'll se how it works out in a couple weeks.

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:55pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The problem was that ruck ball was always under pressure and you can't go wide without pulling defenders into the ruck and giving you the space out wide. We were just losing the collisions that we'd normally win. And then slow ball compounded that. He had one long pass picked off and nearly conceded a try from it. Kicking the ball away is always a dangerous ploy; 50/50 at best. Imo, the game was lost in the first half through stupid penalties and an even stupider decision to crossfield kick a penalty instead of going to the corner or taking the points. The heat and humidity were always going to hurt us, so the objective must have been to build a good lead in the first half and we failed to do that.

I'd agree with the first half assessment. The heat shouldn't be an issue though. It's no surprise japan is humid. That's poor preparation.

Weepsie · 28-09-2019 4:57pm

reg114 wrote: »

Wwe looked so pedestrian compared to the exciting japanese who

Been like that for years and will be so long as they keep rolling out HHH and undertaker

simongurnick · 28-09-2019 4:57pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Not IMO, Simon. Sorry :-)

Take the beating and get the [possibly vital] bonus point.

We'll se how it works out in a couple weeks.

Proof will be in the pudding i suppose. I just thought it summed up the mentality of the day...play it safe.

Portsalon · 28-09-2019 4:57pm

simongurnick wrote: »

I disagree. It shows what throwing caution to the wind does. The fact we lost the match proves my point. We had to take a risk. Hanging on to a losing bonus point against japan is an embarrassment

Probability of going the length of the pitch and scoring a try = tiny.

Benefit of going the length of the pitch, scoring a try and not converting it = zilch.

Probability of going the length of the pitch and scoring a try and converting it = smaller than tiny.

Benefit of going the length of the pitch, scoring a try and converting it = drawn game, so one additional point on the table.

Risk of being intercepted or giving away a penalty to the Japs in our attempt to score an unlikely converted try = tiny but possible.

Risk of someone being injured in a fruitless attempt to score an unlikely try = not insignificant.

Sensible option - kick the ball out.

Remember how England fukced up in the last RWC when they went for the win instead of settling for a draw against Wales?

Dravokivich · 28-09-2019 4:59pm

simongurnick wrote: »

I disagree. It shows what throwing caution to the wind does. The fact we lost the match proves my point. We had to take a risk. Hanging on to a losing bonus point against japan is an embarrassment

Their break came from catching an intercept. Getting through the gain line can be a very difficult thing to do that's why we tend to be more focused on kicking to give ourselves room to attack, instead of carrying.

Rockbeast2 · 28-09-2019 5:00pm

^ That's what I meant to say! :-)

RWC 2019 Ireland v Japan Match Thread: Group A - Sat 28th Sep 08:15 Shizuoka

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