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Border Poll discussion

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    #362
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The EU is acting to protect the interests of its member Ireland, not any part of the UK. The concern of the EU is not for the rights of the people of Northern Ireland, it is concern for the wishes of Ireland to avoid a border with Northern Ireland. There is a subtle but important distinction.

    As I have said before, if there is a crash out, there will be an awful lot of other things to worry about first.

    Nonsense, the EU have several times spelled out their commitments to and guiding principles on Ireland as an island.


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    #363
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It's a £10 billion subvention and I am happy to accept that it is a significant barrier to any change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.


    First of all, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of nationalists from NI having anything to do with a Stormont Government Mark II. The last Stormont Government (1921-73) had to be shut down and revert to Direct Rule.


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    #364
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,251 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    jm08 wrote: »
    You forgetting that there is approx. 800K Irish/EU citizens living in NI?


    There are nearly 200k Irish-born living in the US, probably at least twice that with Irish citizenship. Don't see the EU worrying about them.

    When you include the citizens of other EU countries living in the US, it must far exceed the numbers living in Northern Ireland.


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    #365
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    There are nearly 200k Irish-born living in the US, probably at least twice that with Irish citizenship. Don't see the EU worrying about them.

    When you include the citizens of other EU countries living in the US, it must far exceed the numbers living in Northern Ireland.

    What are you on about?
    Could you deal with the realities here by any chance or are you just looking to deflect?


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    #366
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    blanch152 wrote: »
    There are nearly 200k Irish-born living in the US, probably at least twice that with Irish citizenship. Don't see the EU worrying about them.

    When you include the citizens of other EU countries living in the US, it must far exceed the numbers living in Northern Ireland.


    The US is not a member of the EU and about to leave it.


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    #367
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    jm08 wrote: »
    You forgetting that there is approx. 800K Irish/EU citizens living in NI?
    jm08 wrote: »
    The US is not a member of the EU and about to leave it.

    NI won't be a member in five weeks time. That'll give those people the exact same status as the Irish in the US from the EU perspective.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Nonsense, the EU have several times spelled out their commitments to and guiding principles on Ireland as an island.

    By pushing to build a border on the island?


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    #368
    Schnitzler Hiyori Geta
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Schnitzler Hiyori Geta


    Berserker wrote: »
    NI won't be a member in five weeks time. That'll give those people the exact same status as the Irish in the US from the EU perspective.



    By pushing to build a border on the island?
    Only if you burn the GFA/CTA


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    #369
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Berserker wrote: »
    NI won't be a member in five weeks time. That'll give those people the exact same status as the Irish in the US from the EU perspective.



    By pushing to build a border on the island?

    Lets, like blanch, and the DUP and the Tories (until they were brought to heel by their obligations) ignore the elephant in the room.


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    #370
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,235 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Imreoir2 wrote: »

    I don't think anyone wants a rushed border poll held in a vaccume of reliable information.

    The time frame for reunification is the same now as it has been for the last 30-plus years.

    In about 20 years time.

    It allows most people to harbor the belief that it's something they'll witness in their lifetime without any immediate danger of actually having to deal with any of the political, security or economic practicalities of it.


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    #371
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The time frame for reunification is the same now as it has been for the last 30-plus years.

    In about 20 years time.

    It allows most people to harbor the belief that it's something they'll witness in their lifetime without any immediate danger of actually having to deal with any of the political, security or economic practicalities of it.

    A crash out Brexit changes everything under those 3 headings - political, security and economic practicalities.
    The DUP shooting themselves in the foot as everyone is pointing out.
    And even if it isn't a crash out, their is now an imperative to sort future relationships.


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    #372
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,235 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A crash out Brexit changes everything under those 3 headings - political, security and economic practicalities.
    The DUP shooting themselves in the foot as everyone is pointing out.
    And even if it isn't a crash out, their is now an imperative to sort future relationships.

    Agreed - The likely economic impact on Ireland in a no-deal scenario makes the economic arguments for a UI even worse .


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    #373
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Berserker wrote: »
    NI won't be a member in five weeks time. That'll give those people the exact same status as the Irish in the US from the EU perspective.

    Not even slightly. First off they'll be in Ireland. Secondly they'll be in a portion of an Irish province. Thirdly they did not leave Ireland to move abroad, Britishness was put upon them.
    All the Hello magazine royal weddings in the world cannot fudge these facts.

    Instead of whinging about rebel romaticism I think many pro partition types need wake up to the idea that a united Ireland will be the feel good party of the century. Any loyalist would be welcomed and free to carry on their beliefs. It will be far from a bitter antiquated tit for tat scenario. Those days are only kept alive by the DUP and some SF's. The vast majority, IMO would make reunification a positive affair. It's a matter of when, not if.

    After the last crash and bail out for banks and private investors we can take milder strains for a united Ireland if needs be.


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    #374
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,235 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's a matter of when, not if.

    Cool - how about in 20 years?


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    #375
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,251 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Not even slightly. First off they'll be in Ireland. Secondly they'll be in a portion of an Irish province. Thirdly they did not leave Ireland to move abroad, Britishness was put upon them.
    All the Hello magazine royal weddings in the world cannot fudge these facts.


    In which version of Brexit do the citizenship provisions of the GFA change?



    Matt Barrett wrote: »

    Instead of whinging about rebel romaticism I think many pro partition types need wake up to the idea that a united Ireland will be the feel good party of the century. Any loyalist would be welcomed and free to carry on their beliefs. It will be far from a bitter antiquated tit for tat scenario. Those days are only kept alive by the DUP and some SF's. The vast majority, IMO would make reunification a positive affair. It's a matter of when, not if.


    That paragraph makes the Wolfe Tones look realistic.


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    #376
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The time frame for reunification is the same now as it has been for the last 30-plus years.

    In about 20 years time.

    It allows most people to harbor the belief that it's something they'll witness in their lifetime without any immediate danger of actually having to deal with any of the political, security or economic practicalities of it.

    If there is a no-deal Brexit in a few weeks time, I would say the timeframe is 2-5 years, not 20.


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    #377
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Agreed - The likely economic impact on Ireland in a no-deal scenario makes the economic arguments for a UI even worse .

    No. A UI will be the only practical thing to save us from massive ongoing costs. The unionists shooting themselves in both feet and making FG/FF more republican than SF. Perfect storm really.


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    #378
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Cool - how about in 20 years?

    Could well be. I would suggest a united Ireland may actual save some financially and bring the money men onside with a united Ireland sooner than 20 years. All that will be left will be the likes of the DUP and partioneers digging their heels in for nowt.

    A united Ireland will bring a great time for Ireland and as Irish men and women the Unionists are more than welcome to stick around.


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    #379
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Cool - how about in 20 years?

    20 years was the pre-brexit timetable. 2 to 5 is the likely result of a crash out brexit by an incompetent dup/conservatives. Brexit is a catalyst to speed things up not stop it.


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    #380
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No. A UI will be the only practical thing to save us from massive ongoing costs.

    Taking on NI and the costs involved in running NI would save more money than not taking it on and letting the UK foot that bill. That makes sense for sure.
    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Not even slightly. First off they'll be in Ireland. Secondly they'll be in a portion of an Irish province. Thirdly they did not leave Ireland to move abroad, Britishness was put upon them.

    It was never put upon them. Ireland opted to join the UK and the RoI decided to break away from the rest of the UK after that.
    Infini wrote: »
    20 years was the pre-brexit timetable. 2 to 5 is the likely result of a crash out brexit by an incompetent dup/conservatives. Brexit is a catalyst to speed things up not stop it.

    With catastrophic consequences for the rest of island of Ireland. The RoI will be in no place to think about anything more than trying to stay afloat.


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    #381
    Imreoir2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Berserker wrote: »
    It was never put upon them. Ireland opted to join the UK and the RoI decided to break away from the rest of the UK after that.

    Ireland never opted to join the UK. Please don't spread such nonsense.


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    #382
    votecounts
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭votecounts


    "It was never put upon them. Ireland opted to join the UK and the RoI decided to break away from the rest of the UK after that".


    This never happened, more rubbish posted.


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    #383
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Berserker wrote: »
    Taking on NI and the costs involved in running NI would save more money than not taking it on and letting the UK foot that bill. That makes sense for sure.



    Taking on northern Ireland and the real subvention (not the 9-10-11-12 billion one we hear partitionists quoting) is the only way we can finally stop it costing us huge amounts of money and lives. The British will see it the same way.
    Nobody, except those shamefacedly with their hands out, sees the future of a failed state as sustainable.

    It will be that simple.


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    #384
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,235 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Nobody, except those shamefacedly with their hands out, sees the future of a failed state as sustainable.

    It will be that simple.

    It's not our problem.

    Let's keep it that way.

    It's that simple.


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    #385
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Ireland never opted to join the UK. Please don't spread such nonsense.

    Not correct. Think you'll find that a certain vote occurred on the matter. It's often skipped in Irish history lessons. Doesn't fit in with the victim sob story, I suppose.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Taking on northern Ireland and the real subvention (not the 9-10-11-12 billion one we hear partitionists quoting) is the only way we can finally stop it costing us huge amounts of money and lives. The British will see it the same way.
    Nobody, except those shamefacedly with their hands out, sees the future of a failed state as sustainable.

    It will be that simple.

    NI doesn't cost us 9-10-11-12 billion at the moment. As I said above, taking it on would cost more. That's just the base cost. I'm not including policing etc in that. I see that the UK is going to buy Brazilian beef after Brexit. The first of many blows to the Irish economy. Will be interesting to see how the EU digs you guys out of that hole. That's 50% of Irish exports that need a new home.


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    #386
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Berserker wrote: »
    Not correct. Think you'll find that a certain vote occurred on the matter. It's often skipped in Irish history lessons. Doesn't fit in with the victim sob story, I suppose.
    You mean the vote that the British ran a second time after it was defeated the first time? And where members of the Irish parliament were offered money, land and titles in exchange for supporting the act of union?

    Let's not forget that 90% of the actual population weren't permitted to vote, so the Parliament itself represented a minority.

    It's often "skipped", because it can't be considered a democratic or fair vote. Ireland was joining the union one way or another, the British just decided that bribery was easier than violence.


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    #387
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Berserker wrote: »
    Not correct. Think you'll find that a certain vote occurred on the matter. It's often skipped in Irish history lessons. Doesn't fit in with the victim sob story, I suppose.



    NI doesn't cost us 9-10-11-12 billion at the moment. As I said above, taking it on would cost more. That's just the base cost. I'm not including policing etc in that. I see that the UK is going to buy Brazilian beef after Brexit. The first of many blows to the Irish economy. Will be interesting to see how the EU digs you guys out of that hole. That's 50% of Irish exports that need a new home.

    As I suspected, it isn't really about the welfare of UK or Irish citizens...it's all about seeing the south crash and burn.
    If you think flooding the UK with cheap dubious quality product is the society you wish to leave to your children...carry on. No interest in discussing it with somebody so entrenched.


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    #388
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,251 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    seamus wrote: »
    You mean the vote that the British ran a second time after it was defeated the first time? And where members of the Irish parliament were offered money, land and titles in exchange for supporting the act of union?

    Let's not forget that 90% of the actual population weren't permitted to vote, so the Parliament itself represented a minority.

    It's often "skipped", because it can't be considered a democratic or fair vote. Ireland was joining the union one way or another, the British just decided that bribery was easier than violence.



    Some people would label the Brexit referendum as an undemocratic or unfair vote because of people being bribed about NHS money or Russian influence or illegal spending, all modern versions of the Act of Union vote.

    However, there is no doubt that both results stand as democratic decisions of their time. It is also conveniently forgotten that Ireland has never been united except under British rule.


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    #389
    mrbrianj
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭mrbrianj


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Some people would label the Brexit referendum as an undemocratic or unfair vote because of people being bribed about NHS money or Russian influence or illegal spending, all modern versions of the Act of Union vote.

    However, there is no doubt that both results stand as democratic decisions of their time. It is also conveniently forgotten that Ireland has never been united except under British rule.

    Ireland was never partitioned before British rule, different political system for sure, but its a stretch to say Ireland was united by Britain.


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    #390
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,251 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    mrbrianj wrote: »
    Ireland was never partitioned before British rule, different political system for sure, but its a stretch to say Ireland was united by Britain.



    Before the British, we were a disorganised rabble of separate "kingdoms".


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    #391
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,098 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    mrbrianj wrote: »
    Ireland was never partitioned before British rule, different political system for sure, but its a stretch to say Ireland was united by Britain.

    If you read and subscribe to the British version of history you can make yourself believe almost anything.


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