Random Fitness Questions

Black Sheep · 18-04-2021 12:33pm

Could you decide to do incline bench, or press, or do push press and jerks etc in lieu of flat bench? Potentially yes. If someone's goals are hypertrophy / aesthetics then you can get there by training the chest, arms and shoulders without ever flat benching. I'm not sure why you'd want to, but you could... There are bodybuilders out there who used the incline and other variations completely in lieu of flat benching. Obviously Olympic lifters generally do not bench and they still do plenty of heavy pressing and can be said to have reasonable well developed chests.

Could you decide to do front squats, just heavy single leg work or use machines like hack squat and leg press in lieu of the back squat? Again, yes. In fact, there's a good argument that depending on someone's dimensions there are probably a variety of better ways to train the lower body if aesthetics / hypertrophy are the goal. Paul Carter is really strong on this on Instagram, he's worth checking out.

When it comes to the deadlift, there are other ways to train your posterior chain / back, but I do think it becomes harder to make the case unless we're just talking about subbing in the trap bar. The trap bar is likely no safer than a straight bar deadlift in my view, in that I think the bracing of the straight bar against your legs in a deadlift or RDL is an underrated aspect from a safety point of view, but it does tick the same box as conventional deadlift, RDL, stiff leg deadlift etc. You could approach training the posterior purely by means of back extensions, glute ham raises, kettlebell work and so on, but I think it's harder to say they will be equivalent to a deadlift or deadlift variation in terms of what you can achieve.

All of that said, for general strength, aesthetics and sports performance I think the 'big three' should be included and there are not many compelling reasons why not. I don't accept that there's a greater injury risk with them. And most of the technical difficulties people have with them can be addressed with coaching.

Cill94 · 18-04-2021 1:02pm

Absolutely agree. If an exercise is stable, multi-joint, and uses a full ROM, then of course you can get big and strong doing it.

I'm just not a fan of overcomplicating the training process unless it's needed. People always point to 'x' successful bodybuilder who doesn't do squats or deadlifts, but they neglect to consider that almost all those guys trained the basics hard for their formative years. For inexperienced lifters, one of the biggest issues I see is leapfrogging from one exercise or programme to the next, without ever sticking with something long enough to get results, and I think the 'you don't need to do the big 3' sentiment kind of feeds into that.

I don't really care if someone does an incline bench or a flat bench, but let's not pretend there's evidence that the flat bench is less effective or more likely to get someone hurt. They just want to do something different for the craic. That's fine in small doses, but often times that mindset can be at odds with making longterm progress. Just my perspective from watching people anyway.

Iguarantee · 18-04-2021 1:05pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

...

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Well said

Alf Veedersane · 18-04-2021 2:13pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

To a point, I agree.

But I don't really see how variations of SBD as your big 3 changes things. If the poster is having trouble with squatting a barbell, then perhaps the issue is more fundamental than switching the bar or the bar placement will address.

While I appreciate you're just giving examples, the alternatives selections above are still just variations and may not actually reduce risk.

You don't have to squat unless you want to do a competition. But they are an effective exercise. If you want to do a different compound instead of squats, then you have to understand what it is about squats that makes you want to avoid them and why the alternative movement is better. Personally, involving bands makes it more complicated and im not sure what benefit it would be to the majority of gym goers. And squats against bands is asking for trouble if you're having trouble with the squat.

Of course, if you can always build bigger stronger legs with machines as well.

Fundamentally, I agree that your reason for training should help frame the selection ofexercises you choose to do. But you also don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and ditch squat or bench or deadlift just because.

Brian? · 18-04-2021 2:22pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

That’s grand an all philosophically. But the person asking the question probably can’t squat because of mobility issues. They should prioritise fixing these so they can actually squat properly.

Everyone should be able to perform a back squat unless they had a severe mechanical issue that can’t be fixed. I wouldn’t go looking for other lifts, it’s running away from the problem.

I’m in favour of box squats as a starting point to getting to full back squats.

A Smit machine is good for shrugs and nothing else.

Mellor · 18-04-2021 3:35pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

By all means, do lifts that suit you and your sport.
But the vast majority of people doing partial rom half lifts, if because the big lifts are too hard and they have an ego issue.

"I've got a bad shoulder so I don't let the bar touch my chest....but watch this 150kg 1/4 rep".

Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

Brian? · 18-04-2021 3:40pm

Mellor wrote: »

By all means, do lifts that suit you and your sport.
But the vast majority of people doing partial rom half lifts, if because the big lifts are too hard and they have an ego issue.

"I've got a bad shoulder so I don't let the bar touch my chest....but watch this 150kg 1/4 rep".

Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

Leg press is my favourite. I once leg pressed 650 pounds (living in the states at the time)on a plate loaded leg press. At the time I could squat about 200kg and had an elbow injury

silverharp · 19-04-2021 10:58am

Mellor wrote: »

Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

Cill94 · 19-04-2021 11:11am

silverharp wrote: »

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

All that is fair enough, but it should be noted that there's no difference in injury risk between a trap and straight bar. Both can be done safely if you just load them intelligently and spend a bit of time learning efficient technique.

Black Sheep · 19-04-2021 4:54pm

Cill94 wrote: »

All that is fair enough, but it should be noted that there's no difference in injury risk between a trap and straight bar. Both can be done safely if you just load them intelligently and spend a bit of time learning efficient technique.

If anything, at maximal weights the trap bar is slightly less stable, and ergo less safe. At submaximal weights it doesn’t matter.

Exercise selection based on perceived risk is not really necessary unless there is an existing injury that strongly contraindicates something.

Otherwise, none of these movements are exactly thumbless grip benching.

I wonder is this stuff, which is hardly uncommon, the lingering influence of bedwetters like Mike Boyle who see disaster at every turn.

Brian? · 19-04-2021 8:34pm

silverharp wrote: »

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

A trap bar deadlift is more like a squat and in no way safer than a deadlift imo.

Cill94 · 19-04-2021 11:26pm

Black Sheep wrote: »

I wonder is this stuff, which is hardly uncommon, the lingering influence of bedwetters like Mike Boyle who see disaster at every turn.

Boyle loves hot takes with no support. Squats are bad, low intensity cardio is bad, deadlifts are bad. It all just generates more traffic to his sites.

As you say though, his opinions are very common, and maybe even becoming the norm in the industry. It's going to take a long time to undo all the fear and misinformation. :pac:

Mellor · 20-04-2021 2:17am

Brian? wrote: »

Leg press is my favourite. I once leg pressed 650 pounds (living in the states at the time)on a plate loaded leg press. At the time I could squat about 200kg and had an elbow injury

It's amazing the amount of people who are oblivious the the fact that rails at 45degrees make the wight significantly lighter.
I wonder do they also think they can lift 1000kg because they once pushed a car.

Similar rant about plate loaded bench press and leverge.

silverharp wrote: »

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL.

I said the vast majority of the time. Not all the time.
I didn't squat for over 18months. Due that time I did leg press and single leg work. Reason being I had knee surgery and it wasn't for me.

But vast majority of people who leg press instead of squat are not doing so for similar reasons.
Same with people doing half reps. Maybe some are truncated rom to work on sticking points. Most are just loading more than they can lift.

A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

I disagree. It's a different lift, but no more inherently safe. As above it's closer to a squat. So I personal feel the hip dominant DL is safer than the knee/quad dominate trap bar. But that's me.

If people are more comfortable with a trap bar in general that's fine.
But being more comfortable with it in because they can lift more and "feel stonger" is not the same.
On a similar note. How many people, who prefer trap bar for what ever reasons, lift off the neutral handles and how many off the high handles. That's telling imo.

Patsy167 · 20-04-2021 8:03am

Brian? wrote: »

A trap bar deadlift is more like a squat and in no way safer than a deadlift imo.

Greg Nuckols did a great breakdown (as always) on the difference between the two a while back

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

This article will compare and contrast the trap bar and straight bar deadlifts and make a pitch for the trap bar deadlift as the better option for the majority of lifters.

Brian? · 20-04-2021 8:42am

Patsy167 wrote: »

Greg Nuckols did a great breakdown (as always) on the difference between the two a while back

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

This article will compare and contrast the trap bar and straight bar deadlifts and make a pitch for the trap bar deadlift as the better option for the majority of lifters.

I’m not convinced. One of the arguments is that’s it’s better for people with a limited ROM. Those people should fix their limited ROM and if they absolutely can then go ahead and keep the trap bar DL.

I’m not some sort of barbell purist. Do whatever you want. But I will never agree that people should base exercise selection on movement issues.

Alf Veedersane · 20-04-2021 8:58am

Brian? wrote: »

I’m not convinced. One of the arguments is that’s it’s better for people with a limited ROM. Those people should fix their limited ROM and if they absolutely can then go ahead and keep the trap bar DL.

I’m not some sort of barbell purist. Do whatever you want. But I will never agree that people should base exercise selection on movement issues.

Unless the movement issues cannot be addressed.

But I agree that people point to movement issues as a reason for avoiding certain movements when the best thing they could do for themselves - and not just for working out - is address the movement issue.

Cill94 · 20-04-2021 10:19am

I don't think whether you deadlift with the trap or straight matters too much. Two things that definitely do matter though:

1. The trap bar should not be used as a way of avoiding learning how to hinge

2. If you use the high handles you have brought shame on your family and the generations to come

Alf Veedersane · 20-04-2021 11:57am

There were pics of the Irish rugby team training a few years back and it showed Cian Healy deadlifting with the hex bar using the high handles.

I'd say that generated copycat crimes in gyms all around the country.

Black Sheep · 20-04-2021 12:10pm

Brian? wrote: »

I’m not convinced. One of the arguments is that’s it’s better for people with a limited ROM. Those people should fix their limited ROM and if they absolutely can then go ahead and keep the trap bar DL.

I’m not some sort of barbell purist. Do whatever you want. But I will never agree that people should base exercise selection on movement issues.

It’s a good article but pretty much the usual.

Surprised he didn’t mention the lower stability of a trap bar deadlift once it’s off the ground.

Straight bars are everywhere, and the movement is as safe or arguably safer under max load. There’s still a hill to climb in favour of trap bars for all (and I own and use one).

the baby bull elephant · 20-04-2021 1:01pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

There were pics of the Irish rugby team training a few years back and it showed Cian Healy deadlifting with the hex bar using the high handles.

I'd say that generated copycat crimes in gyms all around the country.

Pretty sure Jim Wendler recommends trap bar for athletes and uses it almost exclusively. I still prefer straight bar myself. Pretty sure studies have shown the injury risk is minimal and actually less than bench. People like Athlean-X have a lot to answer for making people scared of certain exercises or anything that deviates from 'perfect form'.

Mellor · 20-04-2021 1:07pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Unless the movement issues cannot be addressed.

Sure if people have issues that can’t be fixed, permanent or temporary. It makes sense to compensate for them.
But they’re a tiny minority. Seem silly to judge Trap bar vrs straight bar on a minority rather than general population.

Patsy167 · 20-04-2021 3:28pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

There were pics of the Irish rugby team training a few years back and it showed Cian Healy deadlifting with the hex bar using the high handles.

I'd say that generated copycat crimes in gyms all around the country.

https://www.the42.ie/cian-healy-deadlift-240kg-2357947-Sep2015/

Cian Healy is deadlifting 220kg+ there — roughly twice his body weight — which is not too surprising considering he previously told The42 that he benches 190kg and squats 300kg.

Brian? · 20-04-2021 3:32pm

Patsy167 wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/cian-healy-deadlift-240kg-2357947-Sep2015/

Cian Healy is deadlifting 220kg+ there — roughly twice his body weight — which is not too surprising considering he previously told The42 that he benches 190kg and squats 300kg.

High handles off blocks! My eyes!!

Alf Veedersane · 20-04-2021 3:51pm

Brian? wrote: »

High handles off blocks! My eyes!!

John Kiely was the S&C coach and broadly explained why he was using it off blocks....spare some areas, work others a bit. It was a couple of days after a match, 5 days before a match with France so they're not going to be going all out.

Broadly explained modifications to exercises people might recognise that they use

Alf Veedersane · 20-04-2021 3:54pm

Mellor wrote: »

Sure if people have issues that can’t be fixed, permanent or temporary. It makes sense to compensate for them.
But they’re a tiny minority. Seem silly to judge Trap bar vrs straight bar on a minority rather than general population.

I wasn't judging them on the use by minority over general population though.

I just said that exercise selection shouldn't be based on movement issues unless the issues cannot be addressed, given that I likely am one of that tiny minority. I'm not sure why that's objectionable considering I also agreed that people should address their movement issues rather than avoid exercises that highlight them.

Alf Veedersane · 20-04-2021 4:22pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

People like Athlean-X have a lot to answer for making people scared of certain exercises or anything that deviates from 'perfect form'.

Probably why Jeff uses fake plates to lift 'heavy'.

Brian? · 20-04-2021 4:47pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

John Kiely was the S&C coach and broadly explained why he was using it off blocks....spare some areas, work others a bit. It was a couple of days after a match, 5 days before a match with France so they're not going to be going all out.

Broadly explained modifications to exercises people might recognise that they use

It was a joke. The article was praising how strong he was based on that lift. My guess is that's about 60-70% of his max DL, based on a 300kg squat

Alf Veedersane · 20-04-2021 5:06pm

Brian? wrote: »

It was a joke. The article was praising how strong he was based on that lift. My guess is that's about 60-70% of his max DL, based on a 300kg squat

I do get jokes.

In the context of the recent posts on trap bar, I just added the explanation given by John Kiely.

It's 220kg not including the bar...they did him a disservice. More like 240+

Black Sheep · 21-04-2021 9:42am

I just watched the video segment where he does the trap bar deadlifts and it looks like he's doing trebles, and you can see him taking off straps as well. They talk about, as Alf says, that the goal with their lifting at that time was to spare some tissues, that might be injured, and work others.

So yeah - submaximal weight for him, using straps, high handles, off blocks - obviously not something an ordinary trainee without his injuries and professional commitments might need to do.

When I do block pulls (I have gone to these in lieu of rack pulls as I feel they're easier on my equipment) I work up to a heavy single and then what I do is I'll do 80% for 5+ as a back off.

When using the trap bar in general for me it's always the low handles, perhaps even with a deficit, because the beauty of using one in lieu of the straight bar is actually that you can really work your leg drive and get more quad involvement.

I'd be curious what reps and sets he was doing, and what the rest of the workout was. I'm going to guess he did 5x3 on those or something like that.

Must admit I never consider straps, even when maxing on a trap bar deadlift, as the bar doesn't roll in your hands like it would with a double overhand on a straight bar.

new2tri19 · 21-04-2021 10:17am

One aspect of training I'm struggling with is the build up to a rep max attempt . Did a bit of googling and couldn't find anything concrete I guess it's individual but let's say you had to find your 5 rep max for bench which you guessed be about 100kg ( just using round numbers to make it easier ) .
How many warm up lifts before max rep attempt ?

Which of these would be better or neither . For 105 5 rep max attempt.
A - 50 X 10, 60 X 5 , 70 X 3 , 80 X 2, 90 X 1 .. Max rep attempt
B- 50 X 10 , 60 X 5 , 70 X 3 , 90 X 1 , 110 X 1.... Max rep attempt

I'm just thinking in any other sports I do before an FTP test or time trial or swim tt I'd always do an interval faster than planned pace so that the pace of the test feels easier does that apply to weightlifting? Obviously though this method wouldn't work on 1 rep max attempts . Would the heavier rep take too much out of you ?

Thanks

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