Random Fitness Questions

Patsy167

Deleted User wrote: »

My push day once a week is low rep bench, incline, and OHP, followed by higher rep incline dumbbells and some dips.

Is this ok if I basically have nothing to do and am happy to burn time in the gym? Should I keep adding some exercises if I'm feeling ok, or does it start working against you? I'm trying to get some strength going but want hypertrophy and I think what I'm doing is working.

Increasing frequency should serve you well. Some good reading here if you are interested - https://www.strongerbyscience.com/frequency-muscle/

Black Sheep

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My push day once a week is low rep bench, incline, and OHP, followed by higher rep incline dumbbells and some dips.

Is this ok if I basically have nothing to do and am happy to burn time in the gym? Should I keep adding some exercises if I'm feeling ok, or does it start working against you? I'm trying to get some strength going but want hypertrophy and I think what I'm doing is working.

Are you progressing, is the question.

- Has your bench gone up? Or using heavier weights for the assistance and accessory work? Increased reps and sets on that work?

- Have you gained upper body mass?

If not, then yes, you need to change it up. If you are, run it out till you aren’t progressing.

If you’re doing a push, pull, lower body split then that push day should really be quite hard. On an upper lower split or whole body training you would get more frequency.

In general I would also say bench and incline and ohp could be a bit redundant. Maybe bench for your main work sets, then do 3-4 sets of sub maximal higher rep back offs or 3-4 hard sets incline bench OR do OHP. Can rotate this. Then I would personally move on to accessories, heavy tricep work, high rep push ups and side delt if it’s the day to fit it in. I prefer to do two upper body days and push and pull in both though.

Cill94

Deleted User wrote: »

My push day once a week is low rep bench, incline, and OHP, followed by higher rep incline dumbbells and some dips.

Is this ok if I basically have nothing to do and am happy to burn time in the gym? Should I keep adding some exercises if I'm feeling ok, or does it start working against you? I'm trying to get some strength going but want hypertrophy and I think what I'm doing is working.

As the guys have mentioned, you'll want to up your frequency. Research shows it's definitely better for strength and probably hypertrophy.

What will happen eventually is you'll reach a point where it will be too difficult to do enough quality work in a single session to spur further progress.

Maybe look up some of the programmes we've discussed here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114304405

Sorry, don't mean to be rude. Been busy and have had a look at some of the frequency stuff. Will reply properly Thursday hopefully. Thanks for the posts.

Patsy167

Patsy167 wrote: »

Increasing frequency should serve you well. Some good reading here if you are interested - https://www.strongerbyscience.com/frequency-muscle/

Increasing frequency is a bit of a tough one. I have lots of free time but only some days a week. I'm balancing a relationship, work, other hobbies, and too much fondness for alcohol.

I won't be working this summer though so I think I'll end up in the gym four or five days a week for two months. Then it would make a lot of sense to move to something more tailored to that. Will look into it.

Black Sheep wrote: »

Are you progressing, is the question.

- Has your bench gone up? Or using heavier weights for the assistance and accessory work? Increased reps and sets on that work?

- Have you gained upper body mass?

If not, then yes, you need to change it up. If you are, run it out till you aren’t progressing.

If you’re doing a push, pull, lower body split then that push day should really be quite hard. On an upper lower split or whole body training you would get more frequency.

In general I would also say bench and incline and ohp could be a bit redundant. Maybe bench for your main work sets, then do 3-4 sets of sub maximal higher rep back offs or 3-4 hard sets incline bench OR do OHP. Can rotate this. Then I would personally move on to accessories, heavy tricep work, high rep push ups and side delt if it’s the day to fit it in. I prefer to do two upper body days and push and pull in both though.

I've got definite improvement recently. Bench has been going really well since I learned better technique with the back arch, and I learned how to fail in an elegant safe way so I can push myself. Incline feels best though and is my favourite.

My chest took the longest but now it's finally showing properly and is something people have been commenting on recently. I don't look ripped but I look like I work out.

I have zero interest in isolated triceps work for now.. The compound stuff I'm doing is building my arms well. And I hate pushups. I didn't think that combo of flat, overhead, and OHP could be seen as redundant. Will have to look into it more.

Cill94 wrote: »

As the guys have mentioned, you'll want to up your frequency. Research shows it's definitely better for strength and probably hypertrophy.

What will happen eventually is you'll reach a point where it will be too difficult to do enough quality work in a single session to spur further progress.

Maybe look up some of the programmes we've discussed here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114304405

Thanks for the links. GZCLP is my goal but last time I tried, I hurt my knee which killed my interest in the gym for ages and I stopped going. Knee is fine now. I think I'll ride out whatever residual newbie gains I have left before switching anything up too much or going to a dedicated program.

My biggest problem at the moment is the squat. I can maintain good form and go all the way down "ass to grass" with the Smith machine but my body refuses to drop even a foot with an unloaded barbell. It's infuriating. Meanwhile I'm in intermediate territory with my deadlift compared to my weight and grip strength is an issue.


Frankly, I barely know what I'm doing. Definite case of I know enough to know how little I know. The PAs here in my gym are basically fitness motivators. I asked one to teach me the main lifts and he wouldn't budge of a general thing that was $800 in total, when all I wanted was a few weeks of tuition and critique of form. They run around free machines or benches with clients and count while helping the lifts. I never see one of their clients remotely close to failure. They're really impressive when they work out but don't care about form when they coach.

I would absolutely love to have a proper trainer for a while, but I think that's hard to find as a foreigner in Vietnam.

Cill94

Deleted User wrote: »

My biggest problem at the moment is the squat. I can maintain good form and go all the way down "ass to grass" with the Smith machine but my body refuses to drop even a foot with an unloaded barbell. It's infuriating.

Try squatting to a box. You can drop the height over time as you gain more mobility and strength.

Black Sheep

I think you were having similar problems with your squat last year. If you haven't considered remote coaching I think you would be a good candidate for it, for technique fixes and also programming.

As far as doing tricep accessories, there are a couple of reasons you do them. You can't push compounds hard for every exercise in a workout, and if you did then you wouldn't recover. But compound lifts also aren't an efficient way to target particular muscle groups to bring them along for either aesthetic reasons or in order to correct weak points. Compounds and isolation work complement each other, the latter is not a poor cousin to the former.

Tricep work fits in great as accessory work at the end of a push day in particular. Hit tricep extensions (or dips, if you want more of a multi joint exercise) hard and you can still recover, even if you've gone to proximity to failure, and it should also help build the bench.

Patsy167

Deleted User wrote: »

Increasing frequency is a bit of a tough one. I have lots of free time but only some days a week. I'm balancing a relationship, work, other hobbies, and too much fondness for alcohol.

I won't be working this summer though so I think I'll end up in the gym four or five days a week for two months. Then it would make a lot of sense to move to something more tailored to that. Will look into it.



I've got definite improvement recently. Bench has been going really well since I learned better technique with the back arch, and I learned how to fail in an elegant safe way so I can push myself. Incline feels best though and is my favourite.

My chest took the longest but now it's finally showing properly and is something people have been commenting on recently. I don't look ripped but I look like I work out.

I have zero interest in isolated triceps work for now.. The compound stuff I'm doing is building my arms well. And I hate pushups. I didn't think that combo of flat, overhead, and OHP could be seen as redundant. Will have to look into it more.



Thanks for the links. GZCLP is my goal but last time I tried, I hurt my knee which killed my interest in the gym for ages and I stopped going. Knee is fine now. I think I'll ride out whatever residual newbie gains I have left before switching anything up too much or going to a dedicated program.

My biggest problem at the moment is the squat. I can maintain good form and go all the way down "ass to grass" with the Smith machine but my body refuses to drop even a foot with an unloaded barbell. It's infuriating. Meanwhile I'm in intermediate territory with my deadlift compared to my weight and grip strength is an issue.


Frankly, I barely know what I'm doing. Definite case of I know enough to know how little I know. The PAs here in my gym are basically fitness motivators. I asked one to teach me the main lifts and he wouldn't budge of a general thing that was $800 in total, when all I wanted was a few weeks of tuition and critique of form. They run around free machines or benches with clients and count while helping the lifts. I never see one of their clients remotely close to failure. They're really impressive when they work out but don't care about form when they coach.

I would absolutely love to have a proper trainer for a while, but I think that's hard to find as a foreigner in Vietnam.

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

Cill94

Patsy167 wrote: »

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

I agree with some of this but I can't get on board with someone who can't do a full depth squat using reverse band safety bar squats!

I also think the whole 'dogmatic' use of big 3 narrative is a wee bit overdone. Sure you don't have to do those exercises, but they are extremely effective and there is more information on them than anything else. I think this issue is more a case of people getting bored of doing the same stuff over and over.

Black Sheep

Could you decide to do incline bench, or press, or do push press and jerks etc in lieu of flat bench? Potentially yes. If someone's goals are hypertrophy / aesthetics then you can get there by training the chest, arms and shoulders without ever flat benching. I'm not sure why you'd want to, but you could... There are bodybuilders out there who used the incline and other variations completely in lieu of flat benching. Obviously Olympic lifters generally do not bench and they still do plenty of heavy pressing and can be said to have reasonable well developed chests.

Could you decide to do front squats, just heavy single leg work or use machines like hack squat and leg press in lieu of the back squat? Again, yes. In fact, there's a good argument that depending on someone's dimensions there are probably a variety of better ways to train the lower body if aesthetics / hypertrophy are the goal. Paul Carter is really strong on this on Instagram, he's worth checking out.

When it comes to the deadlift, there are other ways to train your posterior chain / back, but I do think it becomes harder to make the case unless we're just talking about subbing in the trap bar. The trap bar is likely no safer than a straight bar deadlift in my view, in that I think the bracing of the straight bar against your legs in a deadlift or RDL is an underrated aspect from a safety point of view, but it does tick the same box as conventional deadlift, RDL, stiff leg deadlift etc. You could approach training the posterior purely by means of back extensions, glute ham raises, kettlebell work and so on, but I think it's harder to say they will be equivalent to a deadlift or deadlift variation in terms of what you can achieve.

All of that said, for general strength, aesthetics and sports performance I think the 'big three' should be included and there are not many compelling reasons why not. I don't accept that there's a greater injury risk with them. And most of the technical difficulties people have with them can be addressed with coaching.

Cill94

Absolutely agree. If an exercise is stable, multi-joint, and uses a full ROM, then of course you can get big and strong doing it.

I'm just not a fan of overcomplicating the training process unless it's needed. People always point to 'x' successful bodybuilder who doesn't do squats or deadlifts, but they neglect to consider that almost all those guys trained the basics hard for their formative years. For inexperienced lifters, one of the biggest issues I see is leapfrogging from one exercise or programme to the next, without ever sticking with something long enough to get results, and I think the 'you don't need to do the big 3' sentiment kind of feeds into that.

I don't really care if someone does an incline bench or a flat bench, but let's not pretend there's evidence that the flat bench is less effective or more likely to get someone hurt. They just want to do something different for the craic. That's fine in small doses, but often times that mindset can be at odds with making longterm progress. Just my perspective from watching people anyway.

Iguarantee

Patsy167 wrote: »

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

...

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Well said

Alf Veedersane

Patsy167 wrote: »

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

To a point, I agree.

But I don't really see how variations of SBD as your big 3 changes things. If the poster is having trouble with squatting a barbell, then perhaps the issue is more fundamental than switching the bar or the bar placement will address.

While I appreciate you're just giving examples, the alternatives selections above are still just variations and may not actually reduce risk.

You don't have to squat unless you want to do a competition. But they are an effective exercise. If you want to do a different compound instead of squats, then you have to understand what it is about squats that makes you want to avoid them and why the alternative movement is better. Personally, involving bands makes it more complicated and im not sure what benefit it would be to the majority of gym goers. And squats against bands is asking for trouble if you're having trouble with the squat.

Of course, if you can always build bigger stronger legs with machines as well.

Fundamentally, I agree that your reason for training should help frame the selection ofexercises you choose to do. But you also don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and ditch squat or bench or deadlift just because.

Brian?

Patsy167 wrote: »

Just to provide another angle - It might be worth considering why you are squatting.

There can be a dogmatic narrative in lifting that "any program that doesn't have the classic big 3 is crap."

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

Be stuck on exercise outcomes,not on exercise selection.

Using boxes, or a trap bar, etc. you can still get the training effect without risking injury.

That’s grand an all philosophically. But the person asking the question probably can’t squat because of mobility issues. They should prioritise fixing these so they can actually squat properly.

Everyone should be able to perform a back squat unless they had a severe mechanical issue that can’t be fixed. I wouldn’t go looking for other lifts, it’s running away from the problem.

I’m in favour of box squats as a starting point to getting to full back squats.

A Smit machine is good for shrugs and nothing else.

Mellor

Patsy167 wrote: »

If your sport of choice is not the Big 3, then find your own Big 3. That might still be the deadlift, squat, and bench... But maybe it is incline bench with partial ROM for 10 reps, SSB Squats with reverse bands, and a trap bar deadlift. Or maybe you find your BIG 5, and it's carries, over head press with a log, heavy pull ups, front squats against bands, and Romanian deadlifts.

By all means, do lifts that suit you and your sport.
But the vast majority of people doing partial rom half lifts, if because the big lifts are too hard and they have an ego issue.

"I've got a bad shoulder so I don't let the bar touch my chest....but watch this 150kg 1/4 rep".

Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

Brian?

Mellor wrote: »

By all means, do lifts that suit you and your sport.
But the vast majority of people doing partial rom half lifts, if because the big lifts are too hard and they have an ego issue.

"I've got a bad shoulder so I don't let the bar touch my chest....but watch this 150kg 1/4 rep".

Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

Leg press is my favourite. I once leg pressed 650 pounds (living in the states at the time)on a plate loaded leg press. At the time I could squat about 200kg and had an elbow injury

silverharp

Mellor wrote: »

Same for deadlifts. It's a big lft. It's a hard lift. Lots of people pull off a trapbar with invest reasons why its better.
But the reality is, they like the buzzof reduced rom and +40kg on the gram

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

Cill94

silverharp wrote: »

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

All that is fair enough, but it should be noted that there's no difference in injury risk between a trap and straight bar. Both can be done safely if you just load them intelligently and spend a bit of time learning efficient technique.

Black Sheep

Cill94 wrote: »

All that is fair enough, but it should be noted that there's no difference in injury risk between a trap and straight bar. Both can be done safely if you just load them intelligently and spend a bit of time learning efficient technique.

If anything, at maximal weights the trap bar is slightly less stable, and ergo less safe. At submaximal weights it doesn’t matter.

Exercise selection based on perceived risk is not really necessary unless there is an existing injury that strongly contraindicates something.

Otherwise, none of these movements are exactly thumbless grip benching.

I wonder is this stuff, which is hardly uncommon, the lingering influence of bedwetters like Mike Boyle who see disaster at every turn.

Brian?

silverharp wrote: »

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL. A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

A trap bar deadlift is more like a squat and in no way safer than a deadlift imo.

Cill94

Black Sheep wrote: »

I wonder is this stuff, which is hardly uncommon, the lingering influence of bedwetters like Mike Boyle who see disaster at every turn.

Boyle loves hot takes with no support. Squats are bad, low intensity cardio is bad, deadlifts are bad. It all just generates more traffic to his sites.

As you say though, his opinions are very common, and maybe even becoming the norm in the industry. It's going to take a long time to undo all the fear and misinformation. :pac:

Mellor

Brian? wrote: »

Leg press is my favourite. I once leg pressed 650 pounds (living in the states at the time)on a plate loaded leg press. At the time I could squat about 200kg and had an elbow injury

It's amazing the amount of people who are oblivious the the fact that rails at 45degrees make the wight significantly lighter.
I wonder do they also think they can lift 1000kg because they once pushed a car.

Similar rant about plate loaded bench press and leverge.

silverharp wrote: »

a bit dogmatic and a fair amount mind reading going on there and assuming the worst take. When I was looking at this, I just went with risk /reward and decided that a DL as main vehicle for strength gains wasnt for me, when I do DL its as an assist ,one legged RDL or a landmine DL.

I said the vast majority of the time. Not all the time.
I didn't squat for over 18months. Due that time I did leg press and single leg work. Reason being I had knee surgery and it wasn't for me.

But vast majority of people who leg press instead of squat are not doing so for similar reasons.
Same with people doing half reps. Maybe some are truncated rom to work on sticking points. Most are just loading more than they can lift.

A trap bar takes a lot of injury risks off the table, the grip is more natural, the weight is more centered and it helps bringing the shopping home :pac:

I disagree. It's a different lift, but no more inherently safe. As above it's closer to a squat. So I personal feel the hip dominant DL is safer than the knee/quad dominate trap bar. But that's me.

If people are more comfortable with a trap bar in general that's fine.
But being more comfortable with it in because they can lift more and "feel stonger" is not the same.
On a similar note. How many people, who prefer trap bar for what ever reasons, lift off the neutral handles and how many off the high handles. That's telling imo.

Patsy167

Brian? wrote: »

A trap bar deadlift is more like a squat and in no way safer than a deadlift imo.

Greg Nuckols did a great breakdown (as always) on the difference between the two a while back

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

This article will compare and contrast the trap bar and straight bar deadlifts and make a pitch for the trap bar deadlift as the better option for the majority of lifters.

Brian?

Patsy167 wrote: »

Greg Nuckols did a great breakdown (as always) on the difference between the two a while back

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

This article will compare and contrast the trap bar and straight bar deadlifts and make a pitch for the trap bar deadlift as the better option for the majority of lifters.

I’m not convinced. One of the arguments is that’s it’s better for people with a limited ROM. Those people should fix their limited ROM and if they absolutely can then go ahead and keep the trap bar DL.

I’m not some sort of barbell purist. Do whatever you want. But I will never agree that people should base exercise selection on movement issues.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I’m not convinced. One of the arguments is that’s it’s better for people with a limited ROM. Those people should fix their limited ROM and if they absolutely can then go ahead and keep the trap bar DL.

I’m not some sort of barbell purist. Do whatever you want. But I will never agree that people should base exercise selection on movement issues.

Unless the movement issues cannot be addressed.

But I agree that people point to movement issues as a reason for avoiding certain movements when the best thing they could do for themselves - and not just for working out - is address the movement issue.

Cill94

I don't think whether you deadlift with the trap or straight matters too much. Two things that definitely do matter though:

1. The trap bar should not be used as a way of avoiding learning how to hinge

2. If you use the high handles you have brought shame on your family and the generations to come

Alf Veedersane

There were pics of the Irish rugby team training a few years back and it showed Cian Healy deadlifting with the hex bar using the high handles.

I'd say that generated copycat crimes in gyms all around the country.

Black Sheep

Brian? wrote: »

I’m not convinced. One of the arguments is that’s it’s better for people with a limited ROM. Those people should fix their limited ROM and if they absolutely can then go ahead and keep the trap bar DL.

I’m not some sort of barbell purist. Do whatever you want. But I will never agree that people should base exercise selection on movement issues.

It’s a good article but pretty much the usual.

Surprised he didn’t mention the lower stability of a trap bar deadlift once it’s off the ground.

Straight bars are everywhere, and the movement is as safe or arguably safer under max load. There’s still a hill to climb in favour of trap bars for all (and I own and use one).

the baby bull elephant

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

There were pics of the Irish rugby team training a few years back and it showed Cian Healy deadlifting with the hex bar using the high handles.

I'd say that generated copycat crimes in gyms all around the country.

Pretty sure Jim Wendler recommends trap bar for athletes and uses it almost exclusively. I still prefer straight bar myself. Pretty sure studies have shown the injury risk is minimal and actually less than bench. People like Athlean-X have a lot to answer for making people scared of certain exercises or anything that deviates from 'perfect form'.

Mellor

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Unless the movement issues cannot be addressed.

Sure if people have issues that can’t be fixed, permanent or temporary. It makes sense to compensate for them.
But they’re a tiny minority. Seem silly to judge Trap bar vrs straight bar on a minority rather than general population.