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Social contradiction on how we treat animals

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    #362
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    You're being a bit wilfully obtuse now, Worztron.
    Earthling Ed wasn't an employee of the factory, so why should he be allowed to wander about inside?
    Would he be insured if he did get in somehow?
    Would you expect to be allowed into any type of factory you took a fancy to?
    Perhaps a warehouse, with multiple forklifts whizzing around? Have a bit of sense!

    I wonder why all aspects of Irish slaughterhouses are not recorded and shown on mainstream TV such as RTE1? Oh wait, that's right - it'd be so awful to show the public the reality of their food choices.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #363
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    ganmo wrote: »
    no i'm saying that grass and wheat are equally sentient so refusing to eat grass because of sentient means you should also refuse to eat wheat on the same grounds.
    we dont eat dog because its not nice the same reason we don't eat grass.

    i'd probably start with boiling it or squeezing the juice out of it
    I should refuse to eat wheat because of sentience? What? You're making no sense there.
    Good luck with your garden grass eating.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #364
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    gozunda wrote: »
    You really don't get it? The noise that pigs make whether pigs been fed or being moved or just about anything sounds horrendous to humans ears. I've been with pigs during feeding time and I can tell you there was no difference whatsover in the sounds made.

    The video you posted purported that the pigs were 'screaming" because of some fear or tortuous conditions. That was pure antrophmorphism and bs. Anyone familiar with pigs would recognise as those sounds to be normal for pigs.

    It's like every thing pushed has to be the most extreme propaganda. Interestingly the carbon dioxide video was also made up of different scenes and then looped.

    I've have read up on the process and the average time death is less than 30 seconds. As for the stupid language that those extremists use to describe the process "they burn from the inside" wtf? It's not a flamethrower - it's a process where one gas is exchanged for another and death occurs realitivly quickly. Afaik they are currently working on other gas mixtures which will ensure almost instant unconsciousness. That is for the best imo.

    I suggest you stop watching these types of daft propaganda films made by a very small minority of vegan extremists and read up on what really happens and make some real efforts to find out about normal animal behaviour .

    We can differ on that so.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #365
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    Worztron wrote: »
    I wonder why all aspects of Irish slaughterhouses are not recorded and shown on mainstream TV such as RTE1? Oh wait, that's right - it'd be so awful to show the public the reality of their food choices.

    Kill it, cook it, eat it was run along the same idea shown on RTE.
    I'd imagine a programme solely focused in a slaughterhouse it wouldn't exactly star in the top ratings so the idea wouldn't be much of a runner.

    There was even a thread on it (dunno why it was closed) & almost 75% of people said they'd have no problem killing their own meat- https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056907157&page=2


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    #366
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Worztron wrote:
    I wonder why all aspects of Irish slaughterhouses are not recorded and shown on mainstream TV such as RTE1? Oh wait, that's right - it'd be so awful to show the public the reality of their food choices.


    Not necessary if someone wants to find out where exactly their food comes from there is an abundance of information online. Anyone who wants this on mainstream TV is doing so for an agenda no other reason.


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    #367
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Not necessary if someone wants to find out where exactly their food comes from there is an abundance of information online. Anyone who wants this on mainstream TV is doing so for an agenda no other reason.
    Exposing the truth is an agenda? Interesting.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #368
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Worztron wrote:
    Exposing the truth is an agenda? Interesting.


    Do you really believe a mature person has no idea where their steak or rashers come from? Anyone that is interested has resources right at their fingertips to assuage their curiosity.


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    #369
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Worztron wrote: »
    I should refuse to eat wheat because of sentience? What? You're making no sense there.
    Good luck with your garden grass eating.

    You’re the one who brought sentient into this discussion.
    And you’re missing the flaw that I’m trying to point out in using sentient as a reason to not eating grass


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    #370
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Worztron wrote: »
    Exposing the truth is an agenda? Interesting.

    I'll take you on and up you one on that.
    Let's have a whole series of tv programmes with some catchy titles including ...

    Embalming - sewing up your granny
    Colonoscopy - the whole nine yards
    Open heart surgery - through the chest cavity
    Sewage treatment- from the bottom up
    etc

    I think we're on to a winner there alright .... :pac:


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    #371
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    I think the treatment of migrants in the horticulture industry might make interesting viewing also!
    Does anyone remember an expose type programme on RTE (or perhaps UTV) about the Irish mushroom industry?
    About 15 or 20 years ago.

    An up to date version from the UK's veg growing areas might be interesting....


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    #372
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    I think the treatment of migrants in the horticulture industry might make interesting viewing also!
    Does anyone remember an expose type programme on RTE (or perhaps UTV) about the Irish mushroom industry?
    About 15 or 20 years ago.

    An up to date version from the UK's veg growing areas might be interesting....

    <snip>

    Why don’t you set up a thread in the farmers forum about it so ?

    Pretty irrelevant bringing it up here.


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    #373
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    <snip>
    Why don’t you set up a thread in the farmers forum about it so ?
    Pretty irrelevant bringing it up here.

    Nope I disagree tbh. Most recent comments are discussing topics such as slaughter house and other stuff not usually aired on television and possible reasons for that. Perhaps you might have some constructive suggestions with regard to that?


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    #374
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    klopparama infracted, use of personal identity information is unacceptable and forbidden.


    EDIT: After speaking to both parties I am reversing the infraction as I am satisfied the reference was not to the posters identity, be careful calling others anything.


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    #375
    Suckler
    Registered Users Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Worztron wrote: »
    I wonder why all aspects of Irish slaughterhouses are not recorded and shown on mainstream TV such as RTE1? Oh wait, that's right - it'd be so awful to show the public the reality of their food choices.

    I wonder why all aspects of the deforestation and destruction of flora & fauna are not recorded and shown on mainstream TV such as RTE1? Oh wait, that's right - it'd be so awful to show the militant vegans the reality of their food choices and the glaring contradictions in their accusations arguments


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    #376
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    Lady Haywire wrote: »
    So at 49 seconds in that video, why does it cut to a different method of gassing pigs? Why not just show us the whole video which explains each method individually? I have watched both & your video conveniently shows both methods, doesn't specify that it's different methods & cuts off right before the narrator says -
    "The pigs have lost their posture, they are most likely unconscious & do not experience anything. In this system there were approx 30 second of reduced welfare, & in this time frame there is a time frame of roughly 15 seconds of struggling which can be considered as suffering. Again these long monotone screams are most likely a residual reaction of the brain stem & spasms of the larynx in unconscious pigs.''

    Entire video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adtjQDW9rVE
    I watched the other video also. I think it's still brutal for the pigs.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #377
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Do you really believe a mature person has no idea where their steak or rashers come from? Anyone that is interested has resources right at their fingertips to assuage their curiosity.
    I think most people like to remain in ignorant bliss regarding animal ag. For example, I doubt many people know that in the egg industry, male chicks are ground up alive.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



  • Options
    #378
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    ganmo wrote: »
    You’re the one who brought sentient into this discussion.
    And you’re missing the flaw that I’m trying to point out in using sentient as a reason to not eating grass
    I brought up sentience because you were comparing wheat vs grass to pigs vs dogs. I think your argument is flawed and senseless.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



  • Options
    #379
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    Suckler wrote: »
    I wonder why all aspects of the deforestation and destruction of flora & fauna are not recorded and shown on mainstream TV such as RTE1? Oh wait, that's right - it'd be so awful to show the militant vegans the reality of their food choices and the glaring contradictions in their accusations arguments
    By all means, show that. But people must eat plants to survive. What's your argument for causing more suffering and death by supporting animal ag?

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #380
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Worztron wrote: »
    By all means, show that. But people must eat plants to survive. What's your argument for causing more suffering and death by supporting animal ag?

    So you're ok where animals and other organisms are killed for the food you do eat? It a fact of life that everything we eat involves death or suffering of some sort.

    Animal Agriculture aims to reducing suffering in death to the absolute minimum. Something which can't be claimed for example in the harvesting of crops where animals are killed indiscriminately. It means little to wild animals and organisms killed whether that their deaths were unintentional or otherwise.


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    #381
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Worztron wrote: »
    I brought up sentience because you were comparing wheat vs grass to pigs vs dogs. I think your argument is flawed and senseless.

    That clearly was not the point made though.
    Let's just take that equivalence to its logical conclusion. What is being said by some vegans is that if you eat animals then all animals are the menu. And in reply what was pointed out is that this is a clearly daft as stating if you eat vegetable matter then all vegetable matter (including grass) is on the menu.

    Imo one of the most frankly stupid and weak vegan arguments is that if we eat any meat is that we should therefore eat dog. It has already been pointed out by many posters how this a complete non sequitur.


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    #382
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Worztron wrote: »
    I agree 100%. Echo chambers are pointless. Free speech means also having to listen to those you disagree with.

    One of the echo-chamber effects is the same tired old canards coming up frequently - such as that single, poor malnourished vegan baby story that Daily Mail readers always come up with - or the 'vegans are destroying the rainforests' nonsense - maybe mods can direct these people to a 'vegan myths' sticky every time they come up? Should we have a sticky like that?


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    #383
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    davidjtaylor wrote:
    One of the echo-chamber effects is the same tired old canards coming up frequently - such as that single, poor malnourished vegan baby story that Daily Mail readers always come up with - or the 'vegans are destroying the rainforests' nonsense - maybe mods can direct these people to a 'vegan myths' sticky every time they come up? Should we have a sticky like that?


    You yourself have suggested to another poster to put everyone they disagree with on ignore. Promoting your own echo chamber. Ironic.


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    #384
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    One of the echo-chamber effects is the same tired old canards coming up frequently - such as that single, poor malnourished vegan baby story that Daily Mail readers always come up with - or the 'vegans are destroying the rainforests' nonsense - maybe mods can direct these people to a 'vegan myths' sticky every time they come up? Should we have a sticky like that?

    I havn't seen either of those particular references in the thread.

    Just out of interest are you saying that specific Daily Mail 'malnourished vegan baby' story is untrue and that people's current lifestyles (including vegans) are not responsible for the destruction of the rainforests? Really?

    Don't see how they are untrue just because you don't like those facts ....

    Btw Just did a quick search and there appears to be lots of 'malnourished Vegans baby' stories in the media ....

    Try it for yourself ...

    Are these all myths?

    :confused:


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    #385
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    One of the echo-chamber effects is the same tired old canards coming up frequently - such as that single, poor malnourished vegan baby story that Daily Mail readers always come up with - or the 'vegans are destroying the rainforests' nonsense - maybe mods can direct these people to a 'vegan myths' sticky every time they come up? Should we have a sticky like that?
    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    A simple google search and there are lots more:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/?utm_term=.1999ef5d8807
    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/sick-toddlers-parents-charged-for-her-strict-vegan-diet/news-story/65e2d8943184e1f3e798c848ce4d1edf
    http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/
    https://www.mouthsofmums.com.au/toddler-found-under-nourished-due-to-parents-strict-diet/#UQ9IeHu45YMlPgPK.97
    https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/12-year-old-vegan-has-the-degenerating-bones-of-80-year-old/
    https://jezebel.com/5786835/vegan-parents-charged-with-neglect-after-baby-dies-of-malnutrition


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    #386
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Base price wrote: »
    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    A simple google search and there are lots more:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/?utm_term=.1999ef5d8807
    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/sick-toddlers-parents-charged-for-her-strict-vegan-diet/news-story/65e2d8943184e1f3e798c848ce4d1edf
    http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/
    https://www.mouthsofmums.com.au/toddler-found-under-nourished-due-to-parents-strict-diet/#UQ9IeHu45YMlPgPK.97
    https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/12-year-old-vegan-has-the-degenerating-bones-of-80-year-old/
    https://jezebel.com/5786835/vegan-parents-charged-with-neglect-after-baby-dies-of-malnutrition

    Spare me your clichés, please.

    You missed the point.
    1. A malnourished vegan child due to under-educated parents is sad.
    2. Countless malnourished children due to the politics and economics of food production is even sadder but unfortunately, just a statistic which is ignored.
    3. Millions upon millions of over-nourished American children, due to under-educated parents and a manipulative food industry, is even more ignored reality, focusing instead on sensationalisation of rare, single cases.

    Anyway, as I say, these repetitive claims clogging up the board could easily be referred to a myth sticky on the board, if there's someone out there qualified to construct one. They're tiresome ("all vegans look ill"), so I won't be revisiting the subject.

    P.S. two of your links are subscriptions.
    Another is from 2005 (involving raw food, which really is parents' miseducation), another from 2011. Of the two recent ones, one has to reference 1990 and 2007 to reinforce its case. That one involved feeding a baby soy milk instead of human milk, so there are bound to be problems, just as there are feeding babies cows' milk. Cliché warning: be careful what you wish for.


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    #387
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    Spare me your clichés, please.

    You missed the point.
    1. A malnourished vegan child due to under-educated parents is sad.
    2. Countless malnourished children due to the politics and economics of food production is even sadder but unfortunately, just a statistic which is ignored.
    3. Millions upon millions of over-nourished American children, due to under-educated parents and a manipulative food industry, is even more ignored reality, focusing instead on sensationalisation of rare, single cases.

    Anyway, as I say, these repetitive claims clogging up the board could easily be referred to a myth sticky on the board, if there's someone out there qualified to construct one. They're tiresome ("all vegans look ill"), so I won't be revisiting the subject.

    P.S. two of your links are subscriptions.
    Another is from 2005 (involving raw food, which really is parents' miseducation), another from 2011. Of the two recent ones, one has to reference 1990 and 2007 to reinforce its case. That one involved feeding a baby soy milk instead of human milk, so there are bound to be problems, just as there are feeding babies cows' milk. Cliché warning: be careful what you wish for.


    The point is David- is you're the one who introduced the topic of these myths. No one except yourself wrote about them on this thread afaik. I think there was one general comment made ages ago - that was it. It's a complete piece of no news! Seriously why are you even talking about it?

    Leaving aside the many other digressions that have actually occurred in this thread - the discussion has been generally ok.

    Now you rock up with this and try to derail the thread by claiming that everyone who doesn't agree is rabbiting on about myths. WTH?


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    #388
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    gozunda wrote: »
    So you're ok where animals and other organisms are killed for the food you do eat? It a fact of life that everything we eat involves death or suffering of some sort.

    Animal Agriculture aims to reducing suffering in death to the absolute minimum. Something which can't be claimed for example in the harvesting of crops where animals are killed indiscriminately. It means little to wild animals and organisms killed whether that their deaths were unintentional or otherwise.
    gozunda, that's a ridiculous question. What do you expect me to eat? Yes, suffering and death happens but veganism aims to minimise it.
    There's a massive amount of suffering and death in animal ag.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #389
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    gozunda wrote: »
    That clearly was not the point made though.
    Let's just take that equivalence to its logical conclusion. What is being said by some vegans is that if you eat animals then all animals are the menu. And in reply what was pointed out is that this is a clearly daft as stating if you eat vegetable matter then all vegetable matter (including grass) is on the menu.

    Imo one of the most frankly stupid and weak vegan arguments is that if we eat any meat is that we should therefore eat dog. It has already been pointed out by many posters how this a complete non sequitur.
    There's a reason people don't eat garden grass. The comparison to begin with is nonsensical.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



  • Options
    #390
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭Worztron


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    One of the echo-chamber effects is the same tired old canards coming up frequently - such as that single, poor malnourished vegan baby story that Daily Mail readers always come up with - or the 'vegans are destroying the rainforests' nonsense - maybe mods can direct these people to a 'vegan myths' sticky every time they come up? Should we have a sticky like that?
    Unfortunately there are many ignoramuses that paint all vegans with the same brush. Those parents with the malnourished baby are morons - be they vegan or otherwise. I'm not sure how'd that sticky workout.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #391
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Worztron wrote: »
    gozunda, that's a ridiculous question. What do you expect me to eat? Yes, suffering and death happens but veganism aims to minimise it.
    There's a massive amount of suffering and death in animal ag.

    Yes animal agriculture here does it best to minimise any suffering. This is built into standards and legislation which is mandated under law. The majority of farmers also do this because it is the right thing to do and makes no sense otherwise.

    It remains there's a massive amount of uncontrolled death and suffering in horticultural and arable production. Yes people must eat but it does not mean we should excuse such death and suffering without consideration or trying to do something about it


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